Alt_Naval and other Never-weres: A pictoral guide to ships that might have been

[KiMaSa]

With some problems with image links breaking over on WoWS EU, I'm looking for a good place to put this painstakingly gathered collection of Almost weres, might-have-beens, impossible dreams and a smattering of deceptions for the viewing enjoyment of naval enthusiasts.

So I thought I'd see what I could do here.

First I will start with Alt_Naval's original site:

NOT FINISHED
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Francesco Caracciolo Class Battleship​

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Furious class Light Battlecruiser​

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Lexington Class Battlecruiser​

The original 7 funnel design with 10x14" guns

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Modified Hood Class Battlecruiser​

HMS Hood and a sister ship.

Close up detail Improved Hood.



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Normandie Class Battleship​

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Ersatz Yorck Class Battlecruiser​

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U.S.S Washington BB-47​

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Amagi Class Battlecruiser​

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Tosa Class Battleship​

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Lexington Class Battlecruiser​

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Taksin Class Light Cruiser​

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Eendracht Class Light Cruiser​

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H-39 Class Battleship​

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Lion Class Battleship​

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Battleship Kentucky BB66​

 

[KiMaSa]

And the next batch:

Not Started

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V.P. Kostenko Design Battleship​

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G3 Class Battlecruiser​

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N3 Class Battleship​

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Italy: 1928 Design Battlecruiser​

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Australia: 'Cockatoo' Design Heavy Cruiser​

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Surrey Class Heavy Cruiser​

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Grom Design Destroyer​

Designed by Marek Twardowski, this is the Grom project destroyer Swedish design ORP Grad

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Fuso Replacement Design Battleship​

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Italy: Project 770 Design Cruiser​

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Big Five' Pre-War Rebuild​

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Spain: Ansaldo Design Heavy Cruiser​

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North Carolina 14" armed Battleship​

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Dutch 1047 Design Battlecruiser​

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Rebuilt Hood Class (Renown style)​

Proposed refit of HMS Hood based on refit of HMS Renown
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O-39 Class Battlecruiser​

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Rebuilt Hood Class (KGV style)​

Another proposed rebuild of HMS Hood, based on the KGV class battleship


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Montana Class Battleship​

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Gascogne Class Battleship​

Note: The original was misspelled "Gascoigne"


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B-64 Design Large Cruiser​

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A-140 Design Battleship​

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'Super'Yamato Battleship​

6x20" Main Guns... Need we say more?
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[KiMaSa]

And a third group. Only two entries but...

'no !@#$% way '
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Super-Duper Yamato Battleship​

8x20" Main Guns! Can you say 'overkill'?


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H-44 Design Battleship​

KMS Tirpitz is dwarfed by H-44...

Next will be the page listed as 'Pure Fiction'​

 

[KiMaSa]

Pure Fiction
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Federation of Hispanic States​

Battleship 1914 Project of the "Federated Hispanic States"


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Saint Catherine Class Battlecruiser​

From the Tarrantry Saga, based on a drawing by 'THUMPER'...


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Formidable Class Battleship​

Part of alt_naval's 'counterfactuals'... This is an 'improved' Queen Elizabeth class battleship. other counterfactuals to follow.


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Harima Class Battleship​

The 'Harima' class battleship, a cornerstone of alt_naval's 'alt_japan' project. Two ships built on the cheap using turrets removed from the Fuso and Ise classes.


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Kairyu Class Aircraft Carrier​

The Kairyu class Aircraft Carrier, substituted for the Soryu and later ships: Cheap, adequate, expendable... Here we see several at anchor.


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Kiyokaze Class Destroyer​

Another alt_japan is this standardized destroyer design.


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U.S.S Nelson' Battleship​

What if the USN built a Nelrod of its own? Heaven help us....



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Schulkreuzer​

This is a Light Cruiser by HoOmAn for 'Wesworld'


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Firenze Class Battleship​

alt_naval does Conway's with this take on an Italian 'Vanguard'
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Battleship Milano​

Next: alt_naval 'Other Stuff'...​

 

[KiMaSa]

Other Stuff
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Among the links to other projects: alt_japan, Federated Hispanic States, alt_navale build a ship, counterfactual, are these three pics depicting three of Kido Butai's four carriers burning on June 4, 1942:

Kaga​

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Akagi​

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Hiryu​

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[KiMaSa]

Counterfactuals
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Alt_naval Counterfactuals: The USN

Counterfactual Florida class Battleship

Almost identical to OTL Pennsylvania class with 12 5" casemate guns instead of 22.




Counterfactual New Mexico class Battleship

Basically a stretched version of OTL BB-45 class with 10x16" guns in 5 twin turrets.




South Dakota BB-49 class Battleship

Constellation class CC

Design of original Lexington plan with 10x14" guns




Boxer class CC

Basically a US Renown class with 6x16" guns.




Bunker Hill class Armored Cruiser

12x8" guns in 6 twin turret hexagonal arrangement.



Modified Omaha design CL

Similar to Omaha class with casemate guns replaced with enclosed mounts. Conning tower slightly lower.




Huntington class "Improved Omaha" CL

Similar to OTL proposed improved Omaha with 10x6" guns in 5 twin turrets versus 4 twins in OTL proposal.




1920s design CL

Similar to Pensacola class CA. Possibly an antecedent like Cleveland class CL to Baltimore class CA.

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Alt_naval's Royal Navy Counterfactuals...

Tiger Class CC

Tiger, Lion, Eagle: 8x13.5" guns




Vanguard class CC

8x12" guns




Invincible class Super Heavy Cruiser

12x9.2" guns.




Cavendish class Light Cruiser

Improved Birmingham class cruiser with 12x6" guns. A CL alternative to Hawkins class CA.


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lt_naval counterfactual: Larger German Republic Navy, no Scapa Flow...

1920s Modernized Konig class Battleship

1920s Modernized Derfflinger class Battlecruiser.

Berlin class Light Cruiser.

9x5.9" guns in 3 triple turrets.




Breslau class CL

8x5.9" guns in 4 twin turrets.




Wiesbaden class CL

8x5.9" guns in 8 single mounts.​

Alt_naval... Dutch Counterfactuals.

De Zeven Provincen class Battlecruiser

8x13.8" guns in 4 twin turrets, Built in Germany




Holland class CL

10x6" guns in 5 twin turrets.




Java class CL

A WWI era design.




Van Ewijck class Destroyer

Based on the RN V and W series Destroyers.




Warmont class Destroyer

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Alt_naval: Counterfactuals...The Imperial Japanese Navy.

Another view of IJN Tosa

Battleship Owari

Here is a modified Yamashiro design: One less turret, more efficient compartmentalization.

IJN Ikoma as a CC. Unified armament of 12 x 10" guns in six twin turrets.

CL design: A true Destroyer Leader with 12 x 5.5" guns in six twin mounts.

CL Minase based on British 'C' class cruiser with 5 single mount 5.5" guns.

 

[KiMaSa]

The next batch are a few more taken from Alt_naval's alt_japan:

Another view of alt_naval's Fast Fuso...

A Light Carrier design: IJN Junho

An improved Takao class.

Seaplane Tender AV... not sure how counterfactual

Like the AV above, this Submarine Tender (AS) was intended to provide material for Japan's 'Shadow Carrier' program.

Fuso after rebuild. She now carries 4 instead of 6 turrets. The removed turrets from the Fuso and Ise classes were used to build the Harima class.

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Here are some mysteries from alt_naval:

First: Counterfactuals was never finished and the files contained these unidentified pics...

This Battleship may have been a Brazilian never were. Note the similarity to HMS Agincourt:

Another Battleship. Any guesses?

Not much to go on here. My guess: Russian perhaps? Survey says?

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And then there are the ones that got away. A few alt_naval pics still unaccounted for. Have you seen this?

A mini or 'baby' Hood with 4 x 15" guns. Just TRY entering "Baby Hood" in a search engine!

The rest: A few pics at the end of alt_naval's 'Other Projects' page. These are the other missing pics...

1.) Yamato vs Iowa. Alt_naval opined that a matchup between these two would be a mess on both sides.His take was summed up in a pic based on the following photo of the Battleship Roma sinking after being hit by Fritz-X guided missiles. Iowa photoshopped in place of Roma...

Title: You Should See The Other Guy!




2) A Christmas gift was a picture of Admiral Ernest J. King laughing (Scary thought) and holding a book entitled "Convoy Tactics For Dummies" and based on the pic shown here:

Title: Look What The British Gave Me.





3) FOUND! A simple modification of the following famous photo of the Japanese destroyer Yamakaze seen sinking from the view of the periscope of the USS Nautilus...

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A smiley face has been superimposed in place of the Hinomaru....



Title: Have A Nice Day!

The last pic was titled "ME" a self portrait of the computer wielding toddler responsible for all these pics. There is really no point in trying to find, match, or top this last one and is only included on the list for the sake of completeness...






That completes the alt_naval pics but more never weres coming up!

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[KiMaSa]

First up... a couple of never weres from two Warship Projects Board veterans. I offer these in full accrediting and respect:




From Canis D: His Queen Victoria Class Battleship and the extensive background he gave the four ships of this class... Queen Victoria, Nile, Trafalgar, and Devastation are first rate!

HMS Queen Victoria 1916

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The full range of Canis D's Queen Victoria class pics and story can be found here:http://www.wolfsshipyard.com/Misc/WolfsDen/MISC/Queen_Victoria/queen.htm




Another very nice piece is this one I believe belongs to our friend Tzoli...

A stretched Littorio with 12 x 15" guns in 4 triple turrets, nice!

This one is from the late Craig Burke, aka: Admiral U. Furushita... Thank you, sir.

Three quadruple turrets as originally planned on the KGV 12 x 14" guns.

HMS Magnificent​

The rest of Craig Burke's work can be viewed here: http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/furamain.htm#admword




Apparently inspired by Craig Burke's Yokozuna Battleship is this pic by LeoVictor:

I know I said 'You're gonna need a bigger boat.' but this is a bit much don't you think?

Yokozuna
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[KiMaSa]

Did I say we were finished with the works of alt_naval? Missed these four done for Wesworld.

All Greek. An interesting assortment:

Megas Alexandros, a 42,000 ton Battleship.

Helle class Heavy Cruiser.

Psara class Heavy Cruiser Lefkosia

Special Frigate Akhilleus

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[KiMaSa]

From Japan comes this interpretation of a 1940s British Battleship design foregoing the cantankerous quad turrets.

Albion Class: HMS Albion, Collingwood, Dominion, and Bellerophon.

Full details can be found here:http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/kyosaku/3kanb/Hms_bb/
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For Yamato fans: No Wave Motion Gun, but Tomahawk cruise missiles...

And on the American side of the Pacific: Modernized Montana!

BB-70 USS New Hampshire




Two Montanas at sea, 1946.

USS Montana BB-67 with USS Ohio BB-68 in background.




For Battlecruiser Hood fans: Final Triumph!

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Next: Is imitation really the sincerest form of flattery...?

 

[KiMaSa]

Here are a few very familiar pics Or are they?

alt_naval's alternate Battleship North Carolina class.

And this look alike with the 5" secondaries restored...

From this original: Vanguard sits next to Duke of York

alt_naval: KGV with 9 x 15" guns sits next to HMS Duke of York

And Now she is on the right with Vanguard on the left... *

A-140...

Did we put that last turret on right?

 

[KiMaSa]

Quadruple Madness

What if the US had gone with 14" main guns instead of 16"? This is South Dakota.

Continuing on the same theme: USS Iowa with 12 x 14" guns.

Another view of Quad Turret North Carolina.

Graf Spee with Quads. Warum?

Another view of Quad Panzerschiffe.

And Another Quad Panzerschiffe...

Gneisenau with Quads ?!

Mogami with 6" guns in 4 quad turrets.

Et tu, Cesare?​

 

[KiMaSa]

Yamato Madness

Fuso-Yamato

Triple-stack Yamato​

 

[KiMaSa]

And more!

Reality: USS Iowa firing a broadside:

Not enough firepower? Here's a modernized Yamato firing broadsides:

Three turrets not good enough? Here is a modernized Montana.

From Russia With Love comes this piece.

Is this a bit of a stretch?


Another take on the Lion. This one is by de Villars and came from a Polish site

Another piece recovered from the Federation of Hispanic States site is this battlecruiser of 1915 (ATL) with 9x13.5 inch guns.

Name listed as Blas de Lezo

If you thought the seven turret Kongo was stretching things...

From Poland, I believe this one also from de Villars, Three twin turrets and long lines. Possibly a Battlecruiser version of the KGV


Found on Admiral Furushita's site is this take on the Montana...

I knew there was a pic for the French Alsace. Turns out it was one of Admiral Furushita's creations.

What surprised me was finding this variant, depicting the battleship Gascogne...

Furushita strikes again! Here his "O" class Battlecruiser makes the channel dash...

And again with this Italian carrier, Sagittario...

And finally, for the sake of thoroughness is Furushita's take on a Midway class carrier that hasn't quite lost all of her Montana class lineage...

From Japan and from the same person responsible for the HMS Albion comes this take on Prince of Wales with three quad turrets.

From the same site comes this 12 x 14" gun North Carolina.

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[KiMaSa]

Would You Believe...?
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I offer three new findings that are most definitely just for laughs...

Akagi's original designer would go on to much greater success designing wedding cakes...

"Hey, Saratoga! Enterprise! Look at my new stove pipe hat!"

Fuso is on her high horse again...
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[KiMaSa]

If you enjoyed the earlier Queen Victoria class battleships, more from Canis D:

Montana in profile.

An excellent pic of a Lexington class battlecruiser with full wartime refit.

Battlecruiser Saratoga

With conversion work begun much earlier during her build, Ranger sports a slightly different look than her older sisters Lexington and Saratoga.

Conversely shown here is Constellation, a Yorktown class carrying 8" artillery...







And finally...

Are you sure we don't need another turret?
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Another batch.

First is more from Alt_Naval's Alt_Japan:

Battleship Ise rebuilt as a fast battleship. As with Alt_Naval's fast Fuso, the ship now has only four turrets.

Heavy cruiser Aoba rebuilt as a CL with 5.5" guns to allow for production of new CAs under the London Treaty.

As with Aoba, here is Furutaka also converted to a light cruiser.

Alt_Naval's Tangiri class destroyer

Yugao, a small destroyer.


These next two come from WesWorld:

Atlantean Atlas class battleship.

Atlantean Battleship Philomedes

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An official US Navy photo, One of her sisters stands in for battleship Washington, BB-47.A true Never Were.



Another take on an updated Yamashiro.

Mid- 1930s rebuild 5 turret configuration.​

Today we have a "What if?" with Battleship Yamato preserved as a museum at Kure.

We have a what if with the Battleship Yamato as a memorial at the Yamato museum at Kure but it looks like someone decided to up the ante:

Battleships Yamato and Nagato at Kure museum

This pic from "Man in the High Castle" caught my eye. The Yamato class battleship evolves much as the Iowas in RL. The helicopter pad on the stern is of particular note.

A nice image of a G-3 Class Battlecruiser:

Very Nice, This was by 'Woody' over at the Secret Projects forum.

This one is the Battlecruiser Amagi:

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[KiMaSa]

The next batch comes with permission from Khyron 2000 at Deviantart for an alternate history (Nordpakt) German Fleet.

Heavy Cruiser Bluecher with 2 quadruple 203mm main turrets.

And Her Sister

August von Gneisenau






A Counterpart to the British 'Magnificent' created by Admiral U. Furashita is this 35,000 ton battleship with 12 350mm guns in three quadruple turrets.

Seydlitz (Sister Goeben not shown)





Heavily armed with 9 x 203 mm main guns and 6 x 150 mm secondaries is this Heavy Cruiser design

Admiral von Stahlen





Next is the Odin class battleship: 35,000 tons and basically an evolved 'Baden' class

Heimdall





The Skagerrak Class battleship armed with 8 main guns in 2 quad turrets (1 fore, 1 aft)

Koenigraetz

And a sister ship:

Derfflinger





Flagship of the Nordpakt

NPS Friedrich der Grosse with 6 x 20" (508mm) guns.

Another view:

Friedrich der Grosse 1944

The Greater Prussian Fleet sorties, Summer 1942

Friedrich der Grosse and her sister ship Wilhelm II. Also visible are destroyers Z-54 and Z-62





Destroyer Z-1

NPS Tannhaueser



Aviation ships:

Prototype Flightdeckcruiser

CLV Seeadler

Next, a pair of Large Flightdeckcruisers with 280mm guns:

CAV Clausewitz

And her sister:

CAV Hardenberg



A True CV

Built on the unfinished hull of a battleship, NPS Otto Lilienthal carried some 80 aircraft.

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[KiMaSa]

Real Pics, Fake Ships
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This "never were" is a little different. The photo has not been retouched. It's the Graf Spee herself that is carrying a dummy "B" turret.

A better look of Graf Spee in her disguise

The details on the dummy 'B' turret are much clearer here.

Another shot of Graf Spee sporting the fake 'B' turret.

A member of the King George V (I) class, HMS Centurion is seen here masquerading as HMS Anson of the King George V (II) class
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As we have seen above, the disarmed WW1 Battleship Centurion was outfitted with dummy weapons to impersonate the then modern HMS Anson, but Centurion was not the only ship to don a disguise in the service of her country. In WW1, the Royal Navy acquired some fourteen merchant ships and dressed them up to impersonate various Battleships and Battlecruisers in an effort to misdirect German attentions. These ships were not particularly successful for a number of reasons but did inspire a similar deception campaign in WW2 which had better success in fooling Axis observers and aerial reconnaissance.

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Including the above mentioned HMS Centurion, there were at least four such ships deployed in WW2 in addition to the fourteen from WW1. I present several here now:

SS Mamari as the carrier HMS Hermes

SS Pakeha and SS Waimana impersonate battleships HMS Revenge and HMS Resolution. SS Mamari can be seen behind them.

Too successful? SS Merion disguised as Battlecruiser HMS Tiger. Merion would be torpedoed by a German U-boat, the survivors clinging to one of the wooden dummy turrets which remained afloat after the sinking.

Another view of Merion as Tiger

SS Manipur disguised as Battlecruiser HMS Indomitable

The SS Princess (formerly the German steamer Kronprinzessin Cecilie) as Battleship HMS Ajax

SS Oruba as Battleship HMS Orion



One turn deserves another: SS Tyrolia (behind) as HMS Centurion.

SS Perthshire disguised as Battleship HMS Vanguard

Here with the bulk of HMS Britannic looming behind them are SS City of Oxford and SS Michigan disguised as HMS St. Vincent and HMS Collingwood.​

Not shown are the following:

Montezuma as HMS Iron Duke
Ruthenia as HMS King George V
Mount Royal as HMS Marlborough
Montcalm as HMS Audacious
Patrician as HMS Invincible
Cevic as HMS Queen Mary

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[KiMaSa]

This group of deceivers are actresses! They are some of the full size sets built for movies such as Tora, Tora, Tora among other productions.

Movie Stars and Stand-ins

Built in 1893 for the World's Columbian Exposition, this Illinois was a faithful reproduction of an Indiana class Battleship and was actively manned by Active Navy officers.

Another view of Illinois

Battleship Nagato as seen in the film 'Tora Tora Tora'

The reality of a complete, full-sized replica film set.

A closer shot of this Ersatz Nagato

You never know what will turn up when you go beach-combing... Careful observers may notice another star of the movie in this shot.

Again, another view.

Carrier Akagi? Something is not quite right here...

Well, it's another set like Nagato but that still doesn't cover everything. Something else is off here...

Let's see if the 30-foot-long filming models help solve this mystery...

A picture of the real ship above a picture of the filming model: Now we can see plainly that the model and ergo the film set have their islands on the starboard side, unlike the real ship which was one of only two carriers with the island located on the port side.

So the model and set don't match the real thing... But this DOES give us a true 'What if'... The reason for constructing Akagi and Hiryu with port-side command facilities was to enhance coordination between division mates in Japanese carrier forces. The higher number of landing accidents suffered by Akagi and Hiryu discouraged the continuation of this practice.

However...

IF Akagi's sister Amagi had not been wrecked in the Great Kanto earthquake of 1923, it is highly likely that she would have looked very much like the vessel shown in Tora Tora Tora. By mistake rather than design, the ambitious Japanese set builders have given us Amagi as she would have appeared in 1941.


A note on film sets...

In 1970, before CGI, if you wanted to film it, you had to build it. Decades later, a Japanese studio would need a life size set for their film about the Battleship Yamato but with CGI technology, the film makers could limit themselves to building only the part they needed to interact with as a physical set, allowing the rest to be filled in with CGI...

This is a 1:1 life size set...

The part of the superstructure above the red line is CGI


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[KiMaSa]

A New Find!

HMS Rodney as an N3 or G3 class Battleship at Spithead, May 17, 1937
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Unfortunately, while very good, this is not quite either a G3 OR an N3. The G3 would have a little more stern behind the funnels and an N3 would only have 1 funnel.