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Jul 10, 2002
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Maybe I should just put all these in an alternate thread for far in the future reference.

While this might sound heretical for a wargame, can we put a premium VP or sphere of influence bonus on a nation that is a 'peacemaker'? Of course the obstacles in the way should be horrendously difficult if not nearly impossible. Otherwise, what real motivation will the American player have to stay out of the war? Granted there would be plenty of dissent generated but perhaps there should be some sort of motivation to work for peace in their time. I mean realistically, these national governments would not want to rush to war blindly and I would think that the national benefits of peace would be a tempting prospect. Edward VII of England was renowned as 'the Peacemaker' because of his superb diplomatic skills and his role in forming the Entente between his nation's traditional enemies, France and Russia and I would think that Germany's Kaiser Wilhelm may well want to aspire to that title (what better revenge then to be the 'peacemaker' of the next decade, the man who saved civilization from its destructive tendencies). In 'The Great Illusion' published in the early 1900's, Norman Angell postulated that modern war was impossible because it was economically unfeasable and many adhered to that idea. I think that the same conditions that caused him to write that should apply to the pre-war world of TGW.

Best regards,
Richmond
 
Tis the season of 'Peace and good will to men', no?

I say bah. War, death, and destruction is what this is all about. 'Let loose the dogs of war!'
 
Two reasons

To give the non-aligned and more powerful neutrals something alternative to do or historic belligents an alternative path (Britain for instance if Belgium is not threatened can try and work as a 'mediator' for a hefty VP boost).

Peace is a great time to build up techs. WHen you're ready it can be conveniently broken...

Richmond
 
Can't have that I'm afraid.

Everyone is starting with -100 DI to ensure that diplomacy does NOT change too drastically and deviate from the historical alliances. We want the conditions to model 1914 as closely as possible and ensure that war DOES break out over some spark in Europe.

Moreover it does seem too complicated to implement accurately in HOI.
 
Hmm I didn't know that...

Yeah I guess the mod should just focus on recreating the historical events and occurances first before going into hypotheticals. Well these are just thoughts, shots in the dark, and once the historic is in place then perhaps we can cut our teeth on these.

Best regards,
Richmond
 
Although we want war, I partly agree with Richmond's thoughts, and there is in fact a command that raises a country's VP score, it could be used to encourage players to choose a historical path, even though the action isn't really the best one.

/Johan
 
Perhaps this could be used to represent isolationism and neutrality for a USA player? It certainly would give reason to stay out of the war.
 
Isolationism and neutrality

Been reading too much Tuchman I guess... going through The Proud Tower (Europe before the War 1890-1914) and August 1914. Really interesting reads for this period. Anyways it does give a picture of the conditions which we are trying to recreate here. The story of the whole Anarchist movement is particularly interesting and the way it moves, along with ideas like Marxism and Socialism toward the political assasinations which culminate with the dead Archduke and Archdutchess in Sarajevo and ultimately with the USSR in 1917, not to mention the allied and White Russian attempts to destroy the Communist USSR in a subplot to WW1 (this is, I'm assuming, part of the mod, given that it goes on till the mid '20s?) While I'm as much for recreating on HoI scale the Somme, Verdun and Passchendaele I'm as interested in recreating not only the battles but the feel, the atmosphere of the period and part of this is embodied in the optimism of 1914, the 'Now God be Thanked' attitude, that pendulum that swung between the almost orgasmic need for the release of a 'European war' (the last one was, for Britain, fought in the Crimea in the 1850s! - Mme Tuchman's comment in 'The Proud Tower' on the British in the Boer war is amusing: "It showed that the British (of 1899) were quite prepared to fight the Crimean war.") and the belief that economic forces would prevent it from being a long war. The capitalists believed that financial interdependence and international big business would not permit a war to intrude on its moneymaking for so long (while making allowance for fortunes to be made by war-profiteering) while the socialists believed that worldwide brotherhood among the workers would ultimately prevent the war from affecting them. It's like a man contemplating an affair and going through with a single infidelity without considering all the consequences. It's like "Fatal Attraction" if you will.

However to say that the war will not happen between 1914 and 1920 is most likely a vain hope. Some 'damn fool thing in the Balkans' or elsewhere was ready to spark it like dry tinder. Since the 1840s, anarchists like Prince Kropotkin were prophesying a great war that would pave the way for socialist take over, a worldwide revolution (the kind that would almost happen post-WW2 with China and the whole 'domino theory') that eventually happened in a big 'small way' in Russia 1917. So I'm not saying that there should be no war. But there should be the viable alternatives. Now I'm also not saying that we need to even consider these alternatives now. Right now I'd be happy just being able to play a strictly historical mod, heck even without any deviations and choices other than where to attack or move my divisions, without the computer crashing on me. But as the mod expands I would like to see things like these. If it were even possible to do, with events, I was thinking (if it doesn't violate copyright or whatever), we could, like in Solzynitzen's novel, 1914 (about the Tannenburg campaign) or John Masters' World War 1 trillogy, have 'news clippings' about the price of soap (remember SMS Emden's Soap advertisement?) or contemporary poetry (I think that's part of the appeal of WW1 is that it is perceived as perhaps the last war of poet warriors and so many great western literary figures fought in it, from those who died like Rupert Brooke, Wilfred Owen, Isaac Rosenburg, Alan Seeger, Joyce Kilmer, John McCrae, to those who lived like JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis, TS Eliot, Siegfried Sassoon, even old Kipling whose son died at Loos while serving with the Irish Guards) and song.

So neutrality and isolationism should, eventually, be possible paths for anyone to take, particularly the great powers with a lot of clout. Reading the Willy-Nicky letters where both look to the other to help 'stop the madness' though perhaps neither in their heart really want to, as it is a chance for military glory, the historic splendid isolation of Great Britain, and Germany, despite the British guarantee of Belgian neutrality, was realistically counting on British neutrality and isolationism, expecting little more than an international 'slap on the wrist' and little more from the Belgians than 'mild protests' and Woodrow Wilson's historic stance of isolationism (because if there's no motivation to stay neutral in this war, I for one will join the Allies in 1914 as America! - it's interesting to think of what a Teddy Roosevelt would have done in 1914 or 1915 post Lusitania - or what a Jennings-Bryant would have done in 1917!). These realities should be present and in place as part of the historic situation because when they are violated - when the 'world socialist brotherhood' or 'international independence of capitalists' does not make the war end 'by Christmas', when neither Willy nor Nicky prevent the war from spreading, when Belgium actually does fight and Britain honours the 'scrap of paper' the fact that they had the choice to stay out or lie back and did it will be more frustrating, more irritating and ultimately more realistic I think than with 'historic predestination'. Similarly a Kaiser Wilhelm II refusing to let the war spread and acting as the 'peacemaker' of the 1914's would be definitely surprising and might well lead to German predominance, certainly it would counteract the 'hun' propaganda and imagery. Imagine what it would look like if France took the offensive in 1914 and marched through Belgium? We could potentially see another battle of Waterloo with British and German troops facing the red trousers with King Albert requiting himself more honorably than the Prince of Orange a ninety-nine years previous. Indeed this idea, of an Anglo-German alliance was more real (though to us nowadays it seems almost unimaginable - as the current NATO Franco-German alliance would have seemed to the statesmen of World War 1!) to the people of the time than the Anglo-Franco-Russian setup. England and Germany were and are historic allies - indeed the English language is a derivate of the Germanic languages and the English royal houses were closely linked to the German principalities by blood. Despite the propaganda of the 'barbaric huns' thanks mainly to the blundering of German statesmen post-Bismarck and Willy's diplomatic 'exercises in perpetual motion' England and Germany should have been closer than they actually were. This is the reason why Bethmann-Hollwegg was so agonized in those early August days that led him to complain that England was abandoning her traditional ally, her cousin, Germany, for the sake of a 'scrap of paper.'

France and Russia on the other hand were very real historic foes, France being England's ancient enemy from the days of William the Conqueror to the Fashoda incident. Russia was the old enemy of the Crimea and a very present and real threat was the Russian bear hovering over Afghanistan and India - the Great Game as popularized by Kipling and other Imperial writers was fought against the hypothetical Russian threat to the English Crown in India.

Once more, I would like to re-emphasize that I would much more like to see the historic game come through than any of these hypotheticals. But eventually the trick to making this mod shine would be to make the only certainty in TGW the thought that nothing is certain. If there's a way, perhaps at the start of the game, to ask the player if he would like to play a strictly historical game in that the diplomacy is pretty much set and unchanging, or would like a more free-wheeling diplomatic challenge where Wilhelm II can potentially be the peacemaker and George V the aggressor then perhaps that could be one way of solving this debate without sacrificing historicity to hypothesis.

Hope no one takes this the wrong way, I'm just as eager to see this become the best mod for HoI that it can possibly be.

Best regards and happy New Year,
Richmond
 
From The Great War to the world of 1914...

So that's for the majors, what of the minors? This could also be a key to the events for the minors and give those of us who would like to play a minor something to do. This would open up avenues to acheive 'greatness' without military 'glory'. Peace would give the minors a chance to develop their industry or perhaps they could make 'leagues of armed neutrality' to protest either blockading/searching of their merchant ships/misuse of their flags by the belligerents (ie. flying neutral flags by merchantmen to fool their enemies) or sinking of their ships by belligerent submarines/raiding cruisers. They would gain diplomatic points for being part of a league or common market and would have a greater voice on the world stage.

Countries like Argentina supplied horses to the allied powers during the great war and perhaps 'peace' could see them supplying raw materiel, supplies or even researched techs to the warring powers - for a price? They could use the war to build up their own forces for fighting their own 'little wars' against their neighbors or possibly even (if they had the tech) build and supply warships to the fighting powers. These could be tech triggered events like once Brazil researches dreadnoughts or something they can fire off an event 'Brazil offers Germany battleships' or something.

Thus events could be written that would play to realistic fears of the period that would not only be like the Ariadne Thread event I suggested (German spy fears in Britain - historic Anglo-German fears and rivalries) but might even see Russian agents propping up and bolstering an Afghan buffer state to threaten British-India or the historic Anglo-French rivalry for the support and trading rights of the kingdom of Siam, or German and Spanish agents exploiting their countries ties to American Pacific territories like Guam and the Philippines in conjunction with German agent provocateurism in Mexico. These would be explorable event paths depending on what the country would want to see happen in the world.

Thus while our initial focus and objective is to make this a mod about 'The Great War' I believe we should potentially be open to expanding it to recreate the world of 1914 as realistically as possible while leaving the players room to explore other paths. Like I said, a possible solution would be to ask the players whether they want to play a historical variant or a more open ended game.

Of course let's get done with the historic variant before doing any hypotheticals...

Best regards,
Richmond
 
There's no problem with thinking of hypotheticals and alternatives, and you're right in saying that any considerations should be left until later, but I think it ought to be emphasised that, while you are looking to make the mod into something extremely flexible, it must be remembered that HOI itself is a game with a rather rigid structure, and entirely based around a war over a relatively short space of time. What you are supposing is that we strive later to try and turn the mod into a game with a distinct diplomatic as well as a warring dimension, yet the means to give players room for manoeuvre in that diplomatic sphere don't really exist. If Germany, for example, is the leading power in the Central Alliance, then it must have no option but to fight France, and by late 1915, if the mod is to have credit as a war game. I can't envisage what player would want to go through the entire game from 1914 to 1924, without going to war, but only picking up Victory Points for acting in a peaceful manner. As far as I can imagine, a user will play a war game with the hope that a war breaks out, and that they will be the prime actor in waging that war. To that end, our mod must work along the lines of encouraging people to fight, and not try to make peace.

So thinking of ideas that deviate from the norm are fine, as long as they keep to the basic rules of the game and the mod - there being a war that takes up most of the years in the game. Certainly, there is a case for including the possibility of a different combination fighting the war (Russia and Germany aligned, for example).
 
Yeah thats true

Actually that was the point I was trying to make, not so much that there would be a world at peace - I think that at that point in history humanity just needed to have a war the way that a man needs a beautiful woman. But the possibility for the combattants to be different and for the flashpoints and focus to be different, that's what I wanted to explore. Mainly because WW1 took place mainly in Europe and you got a whole lot of map that isn't going to see any action at all, not to mention a bunch of minors that aren't really going to get involved. I'm also not saying that we even disregard the historic paths at all but to present the historic realities - and fears - that people had for all their 'entangling alliances'. For Britain, allied with traditional foes against traditional friends, that would have been quite a difficult thing indeed I think. Hence you have events like in Sept 1914 (IIRC) where the Entente powers pledged not to seek a separate peace against Germany-AH (is this included?) because of the very real possibility that one would. Now if that possibility isn't included then there's really no threat, no tension among the powers which I think will be okay but won't make it as real or enjoyable or challenging a game.

So war happens but the when and more importantly where can be open to possibilities. It might very well be between two 'neutrals' like the US and the British Empire, with the alliances maneuvering to get advantageous treaties from either as both sides woo potential allies.

Richmond