And now for something completely different

[orimazd]

The source for most of my Inca stuff is this book, 1491. It only had 6 1-star reviews on Amazon, only a couple of them scholarly. As it is about the only recent source on such matters that I can get ahold of, it will have to do.

Anyways, to the point of the thread. About 2/3s of the way through the book, he mentions a civilization with about the same timing as the Mayans--the Marajoara Culture. I doubt I need to say where on the map they would be placed if they were included. Anyways, here is a link to a 500 page dissertation on the civilization which I will try to read through...I'm on summer vacation and don't have a life when I'm away from college, so it is doable, if not printable. Unless someone else wishes to wade thorugh it, which I am sure no one wishes to.

What is particularily interesting about this civilization is that it was not based so much on agraculture as it was on fishing, a shocking development, as the general rule in history has been for cultures to develop into advanced civilizations only upon the largescale development of agriculture and the excesses it produced. The lack of information present on the civilization, however (if you would call a 500 page dissertation a lack of subject matter...but there is not much which is accessible, especially after only half an hour of research), means that most of what would be done with them would be made from scratch. Questions, comments, snide remarks? Given the go-ahead, I will do this after I finish Tawantin suyu.

 

[orimazd]

Perhaps you will find this image interesting.

This map is of around 1000.

 

[MattyG]

Thanks for the links and the map.

I am very excited by the potential here.

I really liek the design I did of the Maya and thinking through its development into a seafaring culture that spread east out of necessity, only to find it a source of wealth and power.

Until they encounter the Cocoal (the 1300 - 1600 AD period), who are equally advanced and spreading westwards.

The danger is that this means fewer provinces to colonize, so we need to be careful to not allow the Cocoal to be more than, say, three provinces. But they can also be given quality leadership and monarchs to account for their resilience.

It means a bunch of new events for the Maya-Cocoal interractions, naturally, the now-familiar European-interraction events and so forth. With the Cordobans being focused on the soutern caribean to begin with, they will be another excellent candidate to chose Islam as their primary religion, as long as the Cordobans arrive.

Matty

 

[orimazd]

Cocoal? (yes, I've been watching this thread with anticipation)

 

[MattyG]

Cocoal? (yes, I've been watching this thread with anticipation)

The Cocoal Period is the name she gives the the final period of the region/community/culture, that from 1300 to 1600, see page 145.

However, unlike the RW wherein this was a period of collapse in the general structure of the culture, it would be the period of great expansion and centralization.

Maybe the Cocoal would be vassals of the Maya, with a Hindu religion to avoid DAnnexation.

 

[orimazd]

I seemed to have missed the word Cocoal somehow, unless you read blazingly fast. Google, when putting the two words together, tells me that a cocoal is a coco plantation.

I'd rather have the Cocoal and the Mayans slightly antagonistic towards each other but unable to conquer or do significant damage to the other--much like the relationship between the mayans and the incans before I'm done (BTW, I should probably just send you the files I have made, since I can't seem to get it to work right...granted, I haven't had the time to try lately, but that's besides the point).

EDIT: ahh, you meant Cacoal. That doesn't look like a poor spelling of Coatl, and thus doesn't look so hard on my eyes.

 

[MattyG]

Cacoal, right.

Yes, please send me the files for the nation set ups. I also need to arrange flag'shield sets for them. Do you have any high-res artwork that you would want to see turned into flags/shields?

Antagonistic doesn't preclude vassalship: in fact that's usually why it comes about.

But we also don't want to give the Maya or Cacoal and easy set of conquests. I think that the religious differences will be important for that.

Matty

 

[orimazd]

Cacoal, right.

Yes, please send me the files for the nation set ups. I also need to arrange flag'shield sets for them. Do you have any high-res artwork that you would want to see turned into flags/shields?

Antagonistic doesn't preclude vassalship: in fact that's usually why it comes about.

But we also don't want to give the Maya or Cacoal and easy set of conquests. I think that the religious differences will be important for that.

Matty

Considering the lack of ships, an easy conquest, or even conquest is impossible.

#Charca

country = {
	tag = u25
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 5
		centralization = 5
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 172 173 }
	controlledprovinces = { 172 173 }
	nationalprovinces = { 172 173 }

	city = {
		name = "Atacama"
		population = 5000
		location = 173
		bailiff = no
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	city = {
		name = "Arica"
		population = 5000
		location = 172
		bailiff = no
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

#Colla

country = {
	tag = u26
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 0
		centralization = 0
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 193 194 }
	controlledprovinces = { 193 194 }
	nationalprovinces = { 193 194 }

	city = {
		name = "Colla"
		population = 3000
		location = 193
		bailiff = yes
	}
	city = {
		name = "Potosi"
		population = 5000
		location = 194
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

country = {
	tag = u27
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 5
		centralization = 8
		innovative = 4
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 169 }
	controlledprovinces = { 169 }
	nationalprovinces = { 169 }
	city = {
		name = "Qosqo"
		population = 20000
		location = 169
		capital = yes
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

#Chiribaya

country = {
	tag = u28
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 0
		centralization = 0
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 170 }
	controlledprovinces = { 170 }
	nationalprovinces = { 170 }

	city = {
		name = "Chiribaya"
		population = 5000
		location = 170
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

country = {
	tag = u29
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 0
		centralization = 0
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 168 }
	controlledprovinces = { 168 }
	nationalprovinces = { 168 }
	
	}
	city = {
		name = "Nazca"
		population = 10000
		location = 168
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

#Pacasa

country = {
	tag = u30
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 0
		centralization = 0
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 171 }
	controlledprovinces = { 171 }
	nationalprovinces = { 171 }
	city = {
		name = "Pacasa"
		population = 5000
		location = 171
		bailiff = yes
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

#Quito

country = {
	tag = u31
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 0
		centralization = 0
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 162 163 }
	controlledprovinces = { 162 163 }
	nationalprovinces = { 162 163 }
	city = {
		name = "Quito"
		population = 20000
		location = 169
		capital = yes
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	city = {
		name = "Azuay"
		population = 10000
		location = 168
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

#Wanker

country = {
	tag = u32
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 0
		centralization = 0
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 164 }
	controlledprovinces = { 164 }
	nationalprovinces = { 164 }
	city = {
		name = "Gwayakil"
		population = 20000
		location = 169
		capital = yes
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

#Chanka

country = {
	tag = u33
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 0
		centralization = 0
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 500
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 168 167 1484 169 193 194 170 171 173 172 219 220 174 192 1483 166 1482 165 163 164 162 187 160 161 }
	ownedprovinces = { 1484 167 }
	controlledprovinces = { 1484 167 }
	nationalprovinces = { 1484 167 }
	city = {
		name = "Manu"
		population = 5000
		location = 167
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	city = {
		name = "Ayacucho"
		population = 3000
		location = 1484
		bailiff = yes
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200

There are the files I have; all the others I have made but are empty so far. I have to move between computers for internet access and EUII access.

 

[orimazd]

# Chimor
country = {
	tag = CHM
	ai = "default.ai"
	policy = {
		aristocracy = 0
		centralization = 0
		innovative = 0
		mercantilism = 10
		offensive = 5
		land = 10
		quality = 5
		serfdom = 10
	}
	culture = { type = "andean" }
	badboy = 0
	treasury = 200
	income = 0
	inflation = 0
	manpower = 10
	landmaintenance = 1
	navalmaintenance = 1
	landpercentage = 1
	religion = {
		type = pagan
		catholic = -2
		orthodox = -2
		protestant = -2
		sunni = -2
		shiite = -2
		pagan = 10
		reformed = -2
		counterreform = -2
		buddhism = -2
		hinduism = -2
		confucianism = -2
	}
	diplomacy = { }
	knownprovinces = { 166 1482 165 164 162 163 1483 161 160 187 1484 193 169 168 167 170 194 171 219 172 173 220 192 174 }
	ownedprovinces = { 1482 165 1483 }
	controlledprovinces = { 1482 165 1483 }
	nationalprovinces = { 1482 165 1483 }
	city = {
		name = "Montaña"
		population = 3000
		location = 1482		
		bailiff = yes
	}	
	city = {
		name = "Cajamarca"
		population = 20000
		location = 165
		capital = yes		
		bailiff = yes
		fortress = { level = 1 }
	}
	city = {
		name = "Atalaya"
		population = 3000
		location = 1483		
		bailiff = yes
	}
	technology = {
		land = { level = 0 }
		naval = { level = 0 }
		stability = { level = 3 }
		trade = { level = 1 }
		infra = { level = 1 }
		group = exotic
	}
	colonists = 0
	diplomats = 0
	merchants = 0
	missionaries = 0
	loansize = 200
}

Speaking of Chimor, the CoT which would normally be in Cuzco should be in Chimor's capital in Cajamarca.

 

[orimazd]

With the Cacoal people you will also have to rewrite the exploration event for the Maya, as Marajo is way past the island by two or three sea zones. In the dissertation I posted, the Arawak peoples were major players in the region during the Cacoal phase. Given that the location on the 1492 map is in the middle of Terra Incognita, plus the fact that the Arawak were all over the Caribbean not-so-peacefully-coexisting with the Caribs, I think they should have some territory on the Southern Caribbean coast as well, or they or the Caribs could be a presence in the Island chain on the west Caribbean (I forget what it is called) which the Europeans who show up will automatically consider fair game (after all, the caribs EAT PEOPLE).

 

[orimazd]

The files I posted are rather embarassing, as I had forgotten to write capitals in for most of the new countries and a lot of them had Cuzco as a territory in the city list but not the owned/etc province list. I fixed it on my computer.

 

[MattyG]

Have you played the Maya?

They get lots of ships.

Thanks for posting this stuff. It won't be in 6.19 because of the flags/shields they all need. I think 6.20 will be a special new nations upload, with chages to China and India too.

Matty

 

[orimazd]

I have played the maya, and while they get lots of ships, as I said the Cacoal are kinda far away, well past the island chain.

Coming up with the graphics will be a bitch.

BTW, saying there will be fewer provinces to colonize is true, but when you remember how terrible the AI is at colonization I say it doesn't matter. No one penetrates deep into the amazon and its a rare occasion for portugal to ever get past the surface in general in brazil (and no one ever goes into the interior of the Amazon). The interior of NA almost never gets colonized, as with california. If you leave fewer provinces to colonize, then the AI will do better. My original plans for Cacoal involved it being in seven provinces - Marajo, Caracas, Mato Grosso, Goias, Para, Amapa, and Manaus.

 

[MattyG]

I have played the maya, and while they get lots of ships, as I said the Cacoal are kinda far away, well past the island chain.

Coming up with the graphics will be a bitch.

BTW, saying there will be fewer provinces to colonize is true, but when you remember how terrible the AI is at colonization I say it doesn't matter. No one penetrates deep into the amazon and its a rare occasion for portugal to ever get past the surface in general in brazil (and no one ever goes into the interior of the Amazon). The interior of NA almost never gets colonized, as with california. If you leave fewer provinces to colonize, then the AI will do better. My original plans for Cacoal involved it being in seven provinces - Marajo, Caracas, Mato Grosso, Goias, Para, Amapa, and Manaus.

There's a reason the ai doesn't colonise the interior: it's a waste of time and money and the ai, stupid as it is, knows this much. :rofl:

Seven provinces are a lot. Why so many? Maybe five? Still a nassive area the size of France and England combined. Quite the feat for a culture which has evolved independently of other advancing cultures.

I like that they get Mato Grosso, as they will have discovered the gems there and it would be the basis of their wealth vis-a-vis Europe.

Yes, the Maya will never get down there.

I think we need to tie in Cacoal with the idea for colonists from Mali and create a hybrid culture there. What do you think?

 

[orimazd]

I picked those seven provinces because they are basically centered around Marajo, and minus Manaus its not really stretching to see them be that large. Its not my fault they made Para a quarter the size of Spain :wacko:

Besides, it could be recent empire building. After all, you wrote that what in the real world was its decline is in interregnated history its greatest period of expansion. Its not a stretch to cover both sides of their part of the Amazon river, and go downstream--although the New World lacked horses, rivers could be exploited for their speed to allow them some extended control, I would think.

I'm working on the graphics now, and as I was fired from my job I will have a lot more time to work on this, but only for the next couple weeks (at least he waited this long to fire me; when I am leaving soon anyways).

Mali would be a bizarre colonizer, since they have all that Africa to get involved with. I was actually thinking of Cacoal discovering the Old World first, to be honest, just because it would be so bizarre--the plagues they would get could prevent anything major from happening on their part, and the mysterious brown-skinned visitors who aren't moors might be an exploration catalyst in itself.

It would be awesome, anyways, with as much columbian exchange coming from the west as from the east.

 

[orimazd]

This is what I will use for graphics...this is gonna suck, I don't know how to do this.


Chimor

Kingdom of Qosqo, though these were granted by a European king

Aymaran kingdoms, this will be useful even though they are false

Staff God

Chiribaya textile

Nazca lines

The Ecuador flag will do for Quito

Give wanka the old chimu flag.

This will do for now.

 

[MattyG]

Those graphics are pretty bad.

I'll do what I can ...

 

[orimazd]

Any comments about Cacoal discovering Europe?

 

[MattyG]

Any comments about Cacoal discovering Europe?

He he, I hadn't seen that post. Sometimes when you post twice in a row I have only hit the button to view the most recent post, so ...

OK, I can dig your ideas on River travel.

There was actually a historical precedent for the West African's making it across to Brazil, with evidence to support it. So, in the West African thread we had discussed the idea of Mali going across, but instead of being absorbed, of establishing a more significant presence.

This could be the thing that encourages the Cacoal to cross the Atalantic, the arrival of these Malian travellers, as well as the tech interchange, and possibly also the arrival of new ideas, sailed vessels and ISLAM.

I think there is a lot of potential there and it also helps to bridge the plausibility gap.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

There was actually a historical precedent for the West African's making it across to Brazil, with evidence to support it. So, in the West African thread we had discussed the idea of Mali going across, but instead of being absorbed, of establishing a more significant presence.

This could be the thing that encourages the Cacoal to cross the Atalantic, the arrival of these Malian travellers, as well as the tech interchange, and possibly also the arrival of new ideas, sailed vessels and ISLAM.

I've always wanted to get through with that 'Morocco goes west' theme, we laid down the foundations but it has alot of potential!Perhaps we can intergrate a sort of Mali-Morocco Western colliding with the natives - could be intresting