• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Najenda

Sergeant
8 Badges
May 13, 2017
52
96
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II
I know no one even will make a attempt to fix or read this. I respect work hours of every developer dont get me wrong, but my expectation totally collapsed. Byzantium was fine, but this is total disaster from my point of view.

First Aq qoyunlu should be a Nomad or turkic, not muslim group.

1699410822695.png


There is two remarkable modifier, First is that goverment reform. Its terrible, poorly made one. When i think Domination, even Riga's goverment reforms was twenty times detailed and well made compared to this one. If you think Aq Qoyunlu was an empire, a big player for a short moment, it deserves something better.
its not strong as standart horde goverment reform.
its not also a path to Rum because when you form Rum you will get old Ottoman missions and everything will be gone. Also goverment will change to Rum goverment.
İt doesnt give anything to focus of Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu: "Horses"

1699410500572.png


Lets say you want to stay at this reform, because this is only special one. You will probably use full cav as a turcoman federation should do, as idea set, temporary modifiers and conquest path imply. You wont gain anything from it because janissaires completely pointless from this point of view,
You cannot raze
You dont have any special cb as a psuedo horde
You dont gain any bonus shock damage on flatlands
It doesnt even allow horde idea group.
...

and other special thing you gain is "can place pashas" which is not that usable and even texts not changed. it says "Ottoman Goverment"

1699411609148.png


Second one is that, and its nice, from text to modifiers, when you unite all of persia, you should expect a big bonus like that.
1699410479045.png

Ok i will pass sarcasm but there is a problem: there is no use for that for any implication on the future if you keep playing. You will either go for Rum route, stay as Aq qoyunlu, or become Persia.
For Rum its better to go standart army comp like other monarchies do, at least is tribe estate usable.
For Aq qoyunlu, you want to become horde, but there is already one estate, and it is "Tribes"


For this mission you would expect if not new idea or goverment, at least a aesthetical name and color change like byzantium gets. but no it just gives local dev and cons cost for 20 years.
1699411816871.png


When you wanna go route of Rum, you lose everything except tribe estate and old Ottoman missions welcomes you.
When you become Persia, every characteristic of Turcoman tribe erases from game.

End of the mission tree, you getting some claims, a special goverment reform no use for anything.
For something better, a nomad goverment with other estates would fix everything. You wouldnt lose perspective of tribe and horses, but you would gain most of the other monarchies offers. I hope maybe dev sees this and realize some players want to stay as Aq Qoyunlu with some extra flavour.
1699413976444.png
1699414131224.png
 

Attachments

  • 1699413542091.png
    1699413542091.png
    286,7 KB · Views: 0
  • 6Like
  • 4
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:
Black Sheep supremacy! Down with the White Sheep!

I agree with everything you said here. The intended path seems to be AQ->Rum and QQ->Persia, but Rum (among many other M-E tags) got nothing in this DLC, so if you change from AQ to Rum it feels terrible.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
Black Sheep supremacy! Down with the White Sheep!

I agree with everything you said here. The intended path seems to be AQ->Rum and QQ->Persia, but Rum (among many other M-E tags) got nothing in this DLC, so if you change from AQ to Rum it feels terrible.
yeah i guess also, but i dont think we have a hope about it. at least a "Seljuq Empire" name with turquoise map color would be cool.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
We're reading your feedback, indeed. We'll take a look at all the issues pointed out, and we'll think of any possible changes to improve the experience of playing with Aq Qoyunlu. ;)
 
  • 6
  • 3Like
  • 2
Reactions:
We're reading your feedback, indeed. We'll take a look at all the issues pointed out, and we'll think of any possible changes to improve the experience of playing with Aq Qoyunlu. ;)
Oh my god, thanks for responding. I can help if needed. Main thing i felt while playing Aq, it was dull mission tree like just there for transitioning. Not for itself.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
My first 1.36 run is with Aq Qoyunlu and I'm having a great fun!

As for that Seljuk mission, if the suggestion is implemented, make any changes for the name and colour optional, please.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I can second this from the QQ perspective under the assumption that the issues are similuar, and especially the government mechanic aspects are true for both AQ and QQ.

My first run in 1.36 is with Qara Qoyunlu and I am also puzzled in a similar fashion. What confuses me in particular is that they are very Cavalry focused (+20 % CCA from Traditions, +15 % CCA + Extra Cavalry Regiments through the Government Mechanic), but they do not have any Cavalry related modifiers in their government reform. For some weird reason it has only -5 separatism. Back when these mechanics were introduced in 1.23 / CoC they gave the following:
-5 years of separatism
-10% warscore cost for provinces
+25% cavalry to infantry ratio
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...lopment-diary-19th-of-september-2017.1044623/

That was still before government reforms were introduced, so maybe that got already lost during that change or at some later point. The removal of the +25 ratio is a huge nerf though and largely removes their edge that they have, I really wonder whether that was even done on purpose.

I remember that it was very effective as you could easily beat Mamluks (which were very powerful in that patch and the major threat in the region more than the Ottomans) despite being heavily outnumbered with stack wipes from your Cavalry heavy armies. It was a very fun run beating the big bad guy as an underdog, I did it many times. It came also at the cost of a huge debt as those armies were very expensive. Now you cannot use this to its full potential anymore, even if you are willing to spend that money.

I think the government reform should give them at least the +25% cavalry to infantry ratio again as it was orignally intended, then they go a bit in the direction of the semi-horde they can be (and with the option to become one later). As the OP pointed out they miss many of the benefits of the steppe horde such as the casus belli, razing and the shock modifier. No need to give them anything of that (and the shock modifier would be even a disadvantage as they are situated in a very mountainous area.) That should be compensated with some other strong benefits and currently I think that is not fully the case:
Tribal Allegiance: You can get it only at a relatively slow pace, Humilate gives you 30, which is not a lot given that you are sacrificing 40 % War Score on a nation that is strong enough to be a rival of you, in the beginning OK, but even then you sacrifice a lot of money and manpower for that. And in the the mid-game you will not be able to waste that precious warscore anymore. Tribal Allegiance from battles is very low. The general is nice to use in the very early, but you will not use it more than once in your campaign, as you will soon have 40 or more AT anyways. The other 2 are essential for your game.
IMO the Enlist General could be made dynamic by giving you a general with bonus AT similar to the estate privilege decision. For the other 2 it should be made easier to come by the Tribal Allegiance.

The mission tree could somehow alleviate these issues, but some of the mission requirements are extremly steep in practice:
- Giving 2 examples from QQ: Their mission "Stablize the Interior" is extremly hard to achieve in the beginning: You will conquer a lot, you will need to fabricate claims as you don't have a casus belli and you do not get claims from your missions at this early point. This means you won't have time to improve the relations with your vassals to almost max. And more importantly with your cavalry armies you will have a huge deficit, so you are locked out from some of your most important missions for ages.

- The mission "Mounted dread", which would at least temporaririly fix some of the cavalry issues is locked behind having either +40 % CCA or +10 % of discipline. This modifier would be important in early but it means picking Aristocratic ideas to get the missing 5 CCA, or even finishing Quality/Offensive ideas to get the discipline (unless you are very lucky with events). Forcing to pick 1 of a few specific military groups first (I mean who picks military first) is quite harsh for such a crucial early mission.

These are first impressions of course.
 
  • 1
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I can second this from the QQ perspective under the assumption that the issues are similuar, and especially the government mechanic aspects are true for both AQ and QQ.

My first run in 1.36 is with Qara Qoyunlu and I am also puzzled in a similar fashion. What confuses me in particular is that they are very Cavalry focused (+20 % CCA from Traditions, +15 % CCA + Extra Cavalry Regiments through the Government Mechanic), but they do not have any Cavalry related modifiers in their government reform. For some weird reason it has only -5 separatism. Back when these mechanics were introduced in 1.23 / CoC they gave the following:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...lopment-diary-19th-of-september-2017.1044623/

That was still before government reforms were introduced, so maybe that got already lost during that change or at some later point. The removal of the +25 ratio is a huge nerf though and largely removes their edge that they have, I really wonder whether that was even done on purpose.

I remember that it was very effective as you could easily beat Mamluks (which were very powerful in that patch and the major threat in the region more than the Ottomans) despite being heavily outnumbered with stack wipes from your Cavalry heavy armies. It was a very fun run beating the big bad guy as an underdog, I did it many times. It came also at the cost of a huge debt as those armies were very expensive. Now you cannot use this to its full potential anymore, even if you are willing to spend that money.

I think the government reform should give them at least the +25% cavalry to infantry ratio again as it was orignally intended, then they go a bit in the direction of the semi-horde they can be (and with the option to become one later). As the OP pointed out they miss many of the benefits of the steppe horde such as the casus belli, razing and the shock modifier. No need to give them anything of that (and the shock modifier would be even a disadvantage as they are situated in a very mountainous area.) That should be compensated with some other strong benefits and currently I think that is not fully the case:
Tribal Allegiance: You can get it only at a relatively slow pace, Humilate gives you 30, which is not a lot given that you are sacrificing 40 % War Score on a nation that is strong enough to be a rival of you, in the beginning OK, but even then you sacrifice a lot of money and manpower for that. And in the the mid-game you will not be able to waste that precious warscore anymore. Tribal Allegiance from battles is very low. The general is nice to use in the very early, but you will not use it more than once in your campaign, as you will soon have 40 or more AT anyways. The other 2 are essential for your game.
IMO the Enlist General could be made dynamic by giving you a general with bonus AT similar to the estate privilege decision. For the other 2 it should be made easier to come by the Tribal Allegiance.

The mission tree could somehow alleviate these issues, but some of the mission requirements are extremly steep in practice:
- Giving 2 examples from QQ: Their mission "Stablize the Interior" is extremly hard to achieve in the beginning: You will conquer a lot, you will need to fabricate claims as you don't have a casus belli and you do not get claims from your missions at this early point. This means you won't have time to improve the relations with your vassals to almost max. And more importantly with your cavalry armies you will have a huge deficit, so you are locked out from some of your most important missions for ages.

- The mission "Mounted dread", which would at least temporaririly fix some of the cavalry issues is locked behind having either +40 % CCA or +10 % of discipline. This modifier would be important in early but it means picking Aristocratic ideas to get the missing 5 CCA, or even finishing Quality/Offensive ideas to get the discipline (unless you are very lucky with events). Forcing to pick 1 of a few specific military groups first (I mean who picks military first) is quite harsh for such a crucial early mission.

These are first impressions of course.
Yeah i also agree with most of it and
i feel like i should inform, i played a game in 1.35, aq qoyunlu > tengri > mughals (but hold the aq aqoyunlu ideas) to see if %100 cav ratio with cca works properly if you are not horde. no, it doesnt work. even you have proper ratio, horde ideas, it doesnt have the damage and tankiness hordes do. i tried this to see if i can cope lack of horde with mughal diwan.

edit: yes, i always wanted to know where warscore province cost went.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
My first 1.36 run is with Aq Qoyunlu and I'm having a great fun!

As for that Seljuk mission, if the suggestion is implemented, make any changes for the name and colour optional, please.
Great for you ! have fun. Aq Qoyunlu is a hidden powerhouse with a S tier idea set, even without missions its very fun nation to play i agree, i just wanted a personalization and holding something special with it.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I know no one even will make a attempt to fix or read this. I respect work hours of every developer dont get me wrong, but my expectation totally collapsed. Byzantium was fine, but this is total disaster from my point of view.

First Aq qoyunlu should be a Nomad or turkic, not muslim group.

View attachment 1044057

There is two remarkable modifier, First is that goverment reform. Its terrible, poorly made one. When i think Domination, even Riga's goverment reforms was twenty times detailed and well made compared to this one. If you think Aq Qoyunlu was an empire, a big player for a short moment, it deserves something better.
its not strong as standart horde goverment reform.
its not also a path to Rum because when you form Rum you will get old Ottoman missions and everything will be gone. Also goverment will change to Rum goverment.
İt doesnt give anything to focus of Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu: "Horses"

View attachment 1044056

Lets say you want to stay at this reform, because this is only special one. You will probably use full cav as a turcoman federation should do, as idea set, temporary modifiers and conquest path imply. You wont gain anything from it because janissaires completely pointless from this point of view,
You cannot raze
You dont have any special cb as a psuedo horde
You dont gain any bonus shock damage on flatlands
It doesnt even allow horde idea group.
...

and other special thing you gain is "can place pashas" which is not that usable and even texts not changed. it says "Ottoman Goverment"

View attachment 1044076

Second one is that, and its nice, from text to modifiers, when you unite all of persia, you should expect a big bonus like that.
View attachment 1044055
Ok i will pass sarcasm but there is a problem: there is no use for that for any implication on the future if you keep playing. You will either go for Rum route, stay as Aq qoyunlu, or become Persia.
For Rum its better to go standart army comp like other monarchies do, at least is tribe estate usable.
For Aq qoyunlu, you want to become horde, but there is already one estate, and it is "Tribes"


For this mission you would expect if not new idea or goverment, at least a aesthetical name and color change like byzantium gets. but no it just gives local dev and cons cost for 20 years.
View attachment 1044080

When you wanna go route of Rum, you lose everything except tribe estate and old Ottoman missions welcomes you.
When you become Persia, every characteristic of Turcoman tribe erases from game.

End of the mission tree, you getting some claims, a special goverment reform no use for anything.
For something better, a nomad goverment with other estates would fix everything. You wouldnt lose perspective of tribe and horses, but you would gain most of the other monarchies offers. I hope maybe dev sees this and realize some players want to stay as Aq Qoyunlu with some extra flavour.
View attachment 1044091 View attachment 1044095
You know what is even worse than all of that? Uzun Hasan used to be a general in 1444 and a very very good one at that (4/5/4/2 by memory). A few patches ago, he was removed from being a general, which I think was a mistake, because it was not even in the patch notes. Now they make a new mission tree for AQ and they did not even bother to bring him back...
 
Legacy of the Seljuk
  • Cavalry to infantry ratio.png +50% Cavalry to infantry ratio
  • Cavalry cost.png −25% Cavalry cost
  • Tribes loyalty equilibrium +10% Tribes loyalty equilibrium
  • Tribes max privileges.png +1 Tribes max privileges
Legacy of the Seljuk icon

The military and the lifestyle of our people are one and the same. Every male adult is both, a hunter and a warrior on horseback. As such, cavalry warfare is the essence of our battle plans.
Conditions:

The necessary conditions for this reform should not be the establishment of Persia. If this is removed this reform can remove all the cons. @Pavía
 
Last edited: