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ikalugin

ikalugin

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Oct 31, 2011
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I have read most of the forums and those are the questions I have.
What would be T50 load outs?
Would you support external munitions (with stealth reductions)?
How does stealth system work, is it affected by the band (for example meter wavelength radars)?
Would the Su34/Su35 aircraft be available for Ru side?
Would the Ru team field 9M96D missiles on its ships (20385 20382 22350 1144.2/3 1164)
Would you have both 20380 and 20382/20385?

As for loadouts for T50 suggestions:
Air superiority:
4 R77M in bays + 2 R74M in quick bays
Air intercept
4 R37M in bays + 2 R74M in quick bays
SEAD
4 Kh58ushk in bays + 2 R74M in quick bays
Strike
4 KAB 250 in bays or Kh38 in bays + 2 R74M in quick bays.
 
P.s.
Load outs I have suggested come from analysing the documentation of the hard-points (that is not classified)
From those documents Kh35 Kh59 are not planned for the internal carriage in T50.

Also you should note that on naval T50K you would expect rear bay to be replaced with the carrier specific equipment for arrested landing.

p.p.s what are the numbers of T50K or Mig29K on the Kuznetsov?

p.p.p.s what T50 variant would you use? Post 2020 T50 is planned with engine and rear side refurbish, increasing stealth, speed, range an so on.
 
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Hello ikalugin

I'll try the non-T50 questions first.

External munitions (with stealth reductions) : yes

Stealth: We don't simulate wavelength in radar directly, but specify the max range and min cross section a radar can detect. Stealth reduces the RCS for the object. We could simulate this better by taking other factors into account, but the detection system is already by far the most computationally intensive part of the game.

Su35 is in the game, not the Su34 (it is near the top of the list for later additions)

If I read that right, you ask about the S-300 family of AA missiles. We are reasonably conservative when it comes to projected and planned improvements of missiles. We have 150 km range on the s-300 batteries, if that answers your question.

We have only one hull (3d model!) for the Steregushchy. We can vary weapon and sensors load, but when the database entry was created, we gave it a 9K38 Igla, P-800 loadout. That may be updated or varied.
 
ikalugin said:
As for loadouts for T50 suggestions:
Air superiority:
4 R77M in bays + 2 R74M in quick bays
Air intercept
4 R37M in bays + 2 R74M in quick bays
SEAD
4 Kh58ushk in bays + 2 R74M in quick bays
Strike
4 KAB 250 in bays or Kh38 in bays + 2 R74M in quick bays.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your research. This has been one of the hardest things to find out about, especially since we can't read Russian sources.

Currently we have the T-50 with 8x R-77 as the main air superiority loadout (one source). If your research tells you that is not possible, we may have to reduce it. I have to say it sounds strange that it can only have 4x R-77 in internal bays if it also can carry 4x R-37. From our data, the R-37 is 600 kg, 4.20 m, 38 cm d; the R-77 is ~225 kg; 3.6 m, 20 cm d.

I have to say the R-37's 398 km range sounds pretty ridiculous, and it has pretty ridiculous implication for gameplay!

Our SEAD and Strike loadouts are like you describe it above.

We also have Kh35 loadouts (2x internal bays and 2x external pylons for non-stealth). It may be fiction :)

The T-50K (carrier) has reduced capacity, obviously. You say the rear bay is gone; what consequences would that have for the suggested weapon loads?

Again, I appreciate your research and feedback in this and many other threads.
 
Thank you for your reply!

S300 is a big family. In the current S300PM and S400 48N6 family is used, with 250km max range for 48N6DM (fielded with S400, retrofitted to S300PM). Currently in testing there is 40N6 missile with maximum range of 400 km and active seaker, for S400.

S400 and Vityaz are planned to replace the whole S300P familiy, with S400 replacing S300PM and Vityaz the S300PS.
Vityaz would 9M96D (domestic version, 150km 9M96 is 50km) as main armament and 9M100 as self protection missile (10 km range, ir seaker). 9M96D can be used with all advanced S300P series and S400 series, including their naval equivalents. 40N6 is said to have same size/mass as 48N6 family, meaning that it is possible to retrofit it to older sam systems, improving their NEZ.

The Naval systems would be Redut (20382 20385 22350), with 9M96 missile family as main armament (in case of 22350 9M96D is used).

Only one ship (20380) would not have Redut, all others (22382 22385) would have it.

Well 1155 and 11356 families do not use Redut either.
 
Missiles (sam and aa wise) tend to have "Maximum range value". However those are not indicative, as they represent perfect conditions (target will not maneuver, flies towards shooter, doesn't use ECM and so on).
In reality you should operate in term of WEZ and NEZ. WEZ is weapons engagement zone, indicating the range that the weapon has reasonable probability of kill. This differs on many factors and is always less than max range. Second one is no escape zone - the area where missile would have very high probability of kill, kinematics wise. Normally you would use the "effective range" of sam or aa system as 40-60 percent of their maximum range, depending on the conditions.

This is so due to many factors (catching the target that is flying away from you is harder being the most obvious) - for example most of the flight those weapons do on inertia, as the engine has burned out.

Hence the range of R37M against a mobile target would not over 200 km in my opinion.

T50 has released data on the hardpoints that indicated how many and of what kind there are in bays. There are 4, they are interchangeble and can carry both lighter (R77M) and heavier (R37M Kh38 Kh58uzhk and so on) payloads. This just shows the roles this aircraft is optimized for -not only air superiority but also SEAD (Kh 58 ushk) and interception (R37M, like Mig31 variants)
It also has 2 quick bays for R74M in addition to 2 main bays, hence 6 total internal hardpoints. This is not likely to change in the future.

You would use Kh58ushk against ships - even carriers (especially carriers) radiate. In fact carrier cannot operate normally without radiating like a new year tree. Hence you can decrease the capability of enemy force to the level, when you can get in and either use Kh38 (4 in internal bays) or Kab250, or munitions on external hardpoints.

It also feasible for Mig29K and T50 to carry 2 Yahont/Bramos missiles on external, underwing hardpoints.

It is likely that T50K would place the hook (for arrested landing) into the rear bay, connected to the inter-bay bulkhead. This means that 2 hard points are most likely gone, but then T50K would differ from base T50 in same way as T10 does from T10K (ie a lot).

Also T50 has inbuilt LIDAR system, for low level, non radiating flight.
 
On the topic of 20380.
Only the very first is fitted with Kortik. All other ones (from second onwards) are fitted with Redut.
Current (20380 with Redut) has radar suit issues - as only artillery radar (Puma) can provide guidance to the missiles, decreasing overall capability greater. Later on it would be improved with use of different primary radar (current one was meant to guide in sam rounds, but it is not capable enough)

Hence Igla is bad choice.
Also what rounds would you use for KortikM? Would you replace it with PanzirM (or other similar system)?

1144.2/3/4 would be sweet with 6 Panzir M with 18 total close in chanels XD.

p.s. there is also a supersonic P800 derivative in the works.
 
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Again, thank you. We'll update the T50 data, which balance-wise is quite nice. Right now T50s absolutely shred everything they meet in the air except the F-22s. F-35s can somewhat defend, thanks to large weapon bays, but lose 2:1 or so. Typhoons can't stay alive, and I dread testing the JAS 39 against T50s.

Max range works the same way in the game; it is just max range. To have effective kills, you need to be within 60% or so most of the time. This is not hardcoded; it is the effective result of target evasion, the environment and countermeasures.

I'll look through your data on the SAM systems. We try to get it right, but the data is in endless flux and we are not far from release.
 
JanH said:
Again, thank you. We'll update the T50 data, which balance-wise is quite nice. Right now T50s absolutely shred everything they meet in the air except the F-22s. F-35s can somewhat defend, thanks to large weapon bays, but lose 2:1 or so. Typhoons can't stay alive, and I dread testing the JAS 39 against T50s.

Max range works the same way in the game; it is just max range. To have effective kills, you need to be within 60% or so most of the time. This is not hardcoded; it is the effective result of target evasion, the environment and countermeasures.

I'll look through your data on the SAM systems. We try to get it right, but the data is in endless flux and we are not far from release.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
On T50 do you model IR systems? Do you model cheek radar apertures? Note - you do not need to model L band apertures, as those are more of stealthy IFF system.

On F22A - what upgrades did you assume? Incriment 3.2 or any further projects? As with second generation engines (on T50) I really cant see how F22A would have a good score XD.
 
Another question, it is a bit stupid, do missiles (and other weapons) lead their targets? Do you use ProNav seakers? Are different modes modeled (such as ARH+datalink, SACLOS, SAGG and so on)?
 
Not sure I fully understand the question. Passive or semi-active missiles rely on other units' sensors telling exactly where they are (unless, obviously, the targets are emitting themselves). Some missiles have active sensors (radar, ir) and will use them to home in on the targets. So we have a model of the missiles where they behave in a certain way, and they have mounted sensors they use, if available, to search for their original target, or even acquire a new target.
 
Yes, it is about maintaining track of original target by the sensor of the platform, for the munitions. Even those with active sensors would require updates of target position, to home into the box.

As for the missile guidance - you can have direct homing guidance (where missile will fly at the target) or better (where missile would lead the target, improving realism and kinematics greatly).

You can see the examples of later in this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez0LbiW-CYI)
 
Thanks. Yes, the way the game currently works, you can risk losing track of a target after missile launch, and your missiles all end up not finding anything and dying. Very frustrating when it happens, but it is part of the game, and, as I understand, a realistic outcome that also matches reality.
 
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