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Antoine

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May 16, 2003
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In the beginning of the hundred years war France had about 5 times the manpower of England, and an even bigger advantage for armored troops and knights.

Anyway England succeeded to weaken the french, using fast moving columns pillaging on their ways while avoiding open battles and long sieges, winning key battles despite a big number disadvantage, like the battle of Poitiers at 1 vs 10, and taking important lords including king Jean II as prisoners, and finally wasn't far from complete victory in the first half of the war.

Even if we imagine that Jean II was some kind of a misguided warrior and Edward III a brilliant strategist, I doubt that in CK the outcome of this war would be something different than a complete french victory after no more than 10 years of war. A fact is : only numbers matters in CK war model, and having an advantage in number of knights matter even more than anything else.

The only thing actually allowing the player to win an assymetric war is exploiting the AI weakness and flaws of the game, ie by disbanding troops to teleport armies and resplenish them.

If you add to this the fact that navies are not simulated, and so the battle of l'Ecluse where the french fleet was destroyed couldn't happen, and an unlimited number of troops can cross the channel in one move, London would probably have been conquered by the french in year one or two of the war.

And the HYW is not the only example of victories in assymetric wars, crusades can give a lot others, where huge armies were defeated by smaller forces using ambush tactics, and having less problem with attrition.

As well in many cases crusaders armies would have been destroyed by far bigger armies of arabs without their fortifications to protect them while they were waiting for reinforcements. Yes, these genious (compared to all ck leaders) weren't fighting open battles before the sieges, they managed to make their armies enter their castles or fortified cities and defend them.

So... To simulate the period better, I think developpers should think about ways to make assymetric wars more viable.

Some thoughts about that...

1. In actual CK there is no way to adopt the fast moving columns strategy of the english, pillaging and burning villages and monasteries while avoiding long sieges, as you need to completely conquer a province before being able to pillage anything.

2. In actual CK, out of some badly coded events there are no prisoners of war you can ransom. Meaning even if they are lucky enough to win a battle like Poitiers the english wouldn't have their next 5 years of war paid by the huge ransom for Jean le Bon.

3. In actual CK, there seem to be an unlimited supply of boats allowing an unlimited number of troops to cross a sea at a time. In a more realistic model, even if the navies as units remain out of the game, the number of troops you can transfer by boat at a time should be heavily limited no matter your money (also you would need some agreements with the few states having a real navy to be able to bring a whole army to holy land).

4. In actual CK, attrition in non controled lands seem to be quasi linear instead of being based on the number of men you have to supply. Crossing a desert with some hundred of men is not more viable than crossing a desert with 40,000 (of course the 40,000 men army lose more men, but it's about the same %). Also attrition don't seem to affect morale to the point a smaller but supplied force can defeat a big unsupplied army in a desert, like it happened dozen of times during crusades.

5. There are no tactics, and all battles seem to be open battles having the same scenario no matter the terrain, including a shock phase where the party having the bigger number of armored troops/knights always take advantage. There is no way to ask an army to use guerrilla tactics to get more maneuver and ranged phases than shock phases, even if the army is full of light or ranged troops in an accidented terrain. As well retreats you decide have about the same effects as forced retreats, there is no viable way to use hit and run strategies with a mobile army of horsemen (and no way in the first place to build this mobile army as you are not allowed to chose to disband the infantry part of a company like the french historically often did as they were believing that only mounted knights matter).

6. There is no way to protect troops inside a castle when they wait for reinforcements. It seems that all leaders are of the most idiotic kind and chose to fight open battles in front of the castle gate instead of getting inside and waiting when they are outnumbered. The only effect of fortifications is slowing conquest and pillage of provinces after the battles, they don't give the desserved advantage to defending armies, nor even allow them to gain time.

I think CK really need a really different war model than the EU3 one. Medieval era warfare is not about forts with permanent garrisons taken after the main fight between armies of gentlemen sportively agreeing to fight open battle outside, we are not in the "war en dentelles" (english term ?) era. But in a time where armies were sufficiently small to take refuge inside fortifications and survive there sometimes during years, and when they were getting outside it was more often to raid undefended villages than to commit suicide openly fighting stronger armies (or waiting for them, sieging the local castles before taking all the undefended loot).
 
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That's what I liked about KoH.
You could just go to your castle and wait for the enemy to attack.
If you did nothing, eventually your village or some monastery got looted,
but at least you could get a little time ;)

In CK translated that would be: Different types of Provinces.
- Castle Province
- Village Province
- Monastery province
- ...

If you just hide in your castle province your Economy might
get screwed but you save your forces from unwinnable battles.
That's the idea of Castles.
 
'Knight of Honor' is a great game in that perspective. Even though it isn't as deep compared to PI games and lacks proper multipayer, but it has some really good innovations nevertheless.
I'm not expecting absolutely tactical battles a la Total War or KoH style, some sort of abstraction is understandable, but different battle scenarios (sortie, ambush, open field, camp defending etc.) would be great addition. Not even to mention all the possibilities that freely roaming troops on the map would allow coupled with different types of settlements in the same province.

Do we have to wait for new engine for all that ?

No matter how true the list is of the OP. Due to development time etc. I'd be happy if 2 or 3 made it into the game. I don't see the attrition model changing for one. The boats suggestion is one I expect will be implemented though.
 
Loved KoH too despite the affermentioned flaws.

I think a new engine and a physical representation of settlements as provinces are not really needed anyway, an use of army flags for attitudes/positions inside the province would be sufficient to improve the war model.

Here a list of flags I imagine :

- In fort (seek shelter) -> the army protects itself rather than the countryside and so stays in the local castles/fortified city while the enemy eventually pillage the land ; according to the army size it reduces the siege duration (castles supplies are depleted faster) but battle is delayed only happen at the end of the siege (or if the attacker chose to try an assault before, giving an huge defensive bonus to the defending army) ; if ordered to seek shelter when enemies are already in the province and trying to start a battle the army may also fail to reach the fort and be engaged in the open (according to respective speed)

- Engaging enemies (seek open battle as soon as possible) -> the army advance at full speed (making itself vulnerable to ambushes) and tries to provoke an open battle with any enemy army not in fort (and to engage enemies before they reach their fort or the fronteer if they try) ; if the enemies are immobile (ie : sieging) or if they want to engage themselves the battle will be immediate ; if their consign is to harass or raid the battle will be delayed according to respective speed, size and leader skills of the armies ; if the enemies are trying to seek shelter in their fort or to avoid retreat, the battle may happen or not before they succeed, according to speed and leadership of armies

- Scouting / Prudent Advance -> a more prudent approach allowing to avoid ambushes, but delaying the battle more (and allowing enemies to find refuge in fort or start a retreat if they are trying to)

- Pillaging the countryside -> it would be a continuous action instead of a one time button with immediate effects ; pillage would take some time to start to have any effect as the army needs to establish some control first, then every week would produce supply for friendly armies in the province and eventually some gold according to how rich it is (if the leader loyalty is sufficient to make him spare the loot to his liege), while weakening the local economy and loyalty of peasanry to a lord not protecting them ; finally after a month or two of pillage ressources of the province will be depleted so continuing the action would have diminishing returns (I think pillage returns should be based on some kind of Gauss formula, with small gain/damage in the beginning, then bigger, then reduced effect other time)

- Pillaging churchs and monasteries -> would be a variation of the previous flag available in provinces having monastic infrastucture, would give far better returns than pillaging villages, allowing to gain reasonable quantities of gold while at war but would also have an huge piety cost for both the army leader and the ruler ordering this action

- Protecting the province / patrolling -> would mean "engage enemies if they try to pillage or start a siege" but let them go if they are just crossing it. This patrol order would also allow armies to fight thievery in the province.

- Raiding -> may be another variation of pillage, say pillage is "fight if needed and pillage" and raiding is "be prudent, pillage if you can but avoid fights" ; would give smaller returns but delay battle more if enemies try to engage you or protect the land

- Sieging -> would be a particular flag too ; you can very well be in an enemy province and not sieging the castle because you are too busy pillaging or don't want to stay immobile at the mercy of a counter attack

- Harrassing enemy (guerrilla) -> would delay final shock stage of open battle while increasing the number of maneuver/ranged rounds ; would obviously only work well with an adapted army (fast/ranged troops) and in adapted terrain

- Ambushing -> would only be available for small armies controlling the land (alone in a friendly province) when the order is given and in provinces with appropriate terrain like forest and mountains. Here the army goal is not to avoid a battle but provoke it in the best conditions. If the leader and terrain are good enough, this tactic would give a bonus like free damage rounds against the less prudent opponents (ie : opponents entering the province with an engage or pillage flag, and having a bad leader) but be at a big disadvantage against armies using the prudent advance tactic and/or having skilled leaders. Of course the player shouldn't be able to see the flag of enemy armies, so he can't know if his enemies are going to try an ambush or use another strategy.

- Avoiding fight (hiding) -> the army only tries to stay alive, delaying the fight as much as possible and trying to leave the province if there is no other choice. Of course according to armies speed, leaders, the terrain, etc... it's not always possible to escape.

--

I know some people would complaint for too much micromanagement if this kind of tactics options are added, with the player forced to manage flags himself for every army under his control.

So if this kind of system is used, I'd rather support a limited control, which can also improve the roleplaying experience, by taking leaders personnalities into account.

Say for example that you can only completely decide the tactics of the armies in the province where he is or neighbouring it, all others deciding their attitudes according to their leader personnality (with just some general consign by the ruler like "you can pillage enemy land or not", that may be checkboxes in the interface).

For example, a leader having traits like valorous, etc... would tend to use engage as his default strategy while another more prudent would default to prudent advance. A coward will tend to seek shelter or avoid fight if he sees any enemy army moving to his province while a more courageous one would only do so if largely outnumbered ; a chivalric leader may refuse to pillage when a cruel one will burn the land each time he is allowed, etc...

And finally there wouldn't be too much micromanagement out of chosing the good leaders for the kind of global strategy you want (of course when these leaders are vassals leading their own armies you don't even have this choice ; but I hope there will be more choice than in ck1 when it comes to who lead your own forces).
 
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I think that in general the AI in Paradox games has a tough time with any sort of asymmetric warfare. The best and often only way to beat big bads like France in EU3 is to employ scorched earth, attrition, terrain, and so on. The AI rarely uses the same tactics on you.

One thing that I hope they will do is amplify the effects of looting provinces in CK2, both for looters and looted, since that was a major motivation for period warfare.
 
2. In actual CK, out of some badly coded events there are no prisoners of war you can ransom.
I agree, ransoming was very important at the time and should deffinatley be included. It doesn't seem that it would be difficult to set up, although the enemy would actually have to have enough gold for ransoms to be worth it. Maybe loans of some sort?

3. In actual CK, there seem to be an unlimited supply of boats allowing an unlimited number of troops to cross a sea at a time.

How about only having harbours in certain provinces, then if you want to move men overseas you either control the province orpay the owner of one. Although I think it's likely that somes sort of naval model will be in.


4. In actual CK, attrition in non controled lands seem to be quasi linear instead of being based on the number of men you have to supply.

Again, things have moved on since the original CK came out, I'd be amazed if there wasn't some sort of simple supply system like Victoria 2. Hopefully there'll be pillaging mechanics aswell since most armies at the time would've foraged for food.

5. There are no tactics, and all battles seem to be open battles having the same scenario no matter the terrain, including a shock phase where the party having the bigger number of armored troops/knights always take advantage.
I take your point here, although I don't want anything too deep that would take away from the dynasty aspects of the game.

6. There is no way to protect troops inside a castle when they wait for reinforcements.

Some way of telling your guys to wait in the castle is essential. I couldn't agree more.

I think you make some valid points, although making a guerilla war model and an AI that could use it seems like it's not really doable. I do agree that more should be made of attrition and pillaging, a ten thousand man army should suffer constant losses and if they run out of supply then they should be buggered.
 
Pillaging definately needs overhaul. That concept bothers me since CK 1.0

Raising an army and plundering provinces should be profitable and not the other way around. We start in 1066 so still very early after the viking raids a.k.a. war for profit
 
I think if they just brought some aspects from other Paradox titles over, it would work pretty well. Such as military subsidies, support rebellion, etc. They could even have a support pretender, where you can try and get an uprising to happen in a rival kingdom, where instead of just a typical rebel army, you are helping a potential pretender get the throne.

the_legion said:
That's what I liked about KoH.
You could just go to your castle and wait for the enemy to attack.
If you did nothing, eventually your village or some monastery got looted,
but at least you could get a little time

In CK translated that would be: Different types of Provinces.
- Castle Province
- Village Province
- Monastery province
- ...

This reminds me of the idea I had earlier, about grouping by category, this also makes it so we don't see only castles on the map, but a variety of things. :) http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=493988&page=2
 
I do agree that more should be made of attrition and pillaging, a ten thousand man army should suffer constant losses and if they run out of supply then they should be buggered.

also pillaging may help an army not to suffer too much of attrition

on tactics :
-attacking : front attack same as ck1
-defensing : = stay in castle ; harden the siege
-moving fast : rapid move but suffering more attrition ; more vulnerable to attack
-moving slower : take more time to go through a province but let some time to pillage and so reduces attrition
 
I think realistic sieges would help. A strongly held castle with a good water supply should have an excellent chance of seeing off an enemy army almost irrespective of its size. A siege is not a countdown to the day when the defenders surrender, it is a race between the defenders' supplies running out and the attackers' supplies running out. A large army just means you have more mouths eating up your supplies.

Then, really decisive battles. Medieval wars very rarely saw formal set-piece battles, because they were so risky; and what's more, to "offer battle" - the phrase is itself revealing - was to say, in a sense, that you were going to let God sort it out. That's part of why battles often led to peace treaties even though they usually didn't destroy the losing side's capability to resist as we would see it today: It was perceived that God had judged the issue.

So, what I'd like to see is a combination of sieges that are very difficult to win, and battles that are almost random but highly decisive. A lost battle should cause castles to surrender, army morale to evaporate, noble loyalties to drop, militia to refuse the callout, and pious vassals to change sides.
 
I think realistic sieges would help. A strongly held castle with a good water supply should have an excellent chance of seeing off an enemy army almost irrespective of its size. A siege is not a countdown to the day when the defenders surrender, it is a race between the defenders' supplies running out and the attackers' supplies running out. A large army just means you have more mouths eating up your supplies.

Then, really decisive battles. Medieval wars very rarely saw formal set-piece battles, because they were so risky; and what's more, to "offer battle" - the phrase is itself revealing - was to say, in a sense, that you were going to let God sort it out. That's part of why battles often led to peace treaties even though they usually didn't destroy the losing side's capability to resist as we would see it today: It was perceived that God had judged the issue.

So, what I'd like to see is a combination of sieges that are very difficult to win, and battles that are almost random but highly decisive. A lost battle should cause castles to surrender, army morale to evaporate, noble loyalties to drop, militia to refuse the callout, and pious vassals to change sides.

What about using EU3 siege system instead of CK/Vicky/HoI? That would make it more realistic giving you option of either very long siege or periodical attacks to overcome the enemy directly.

Other changes may include: only very small permanent garrisons, so when enemy enters province where the local army is either fighting elsewhere or was already defeated, the siege would be much faster. That would make open battles risky just by themselves without additional mechanism.

Based on the size of castle (or number of them) in each province, you would be able to garrison only part of the army. Also the more men you will garrison, the less time they will be able to stand, which should give you different possible strategies.

-Garrison all possible men and count on the enemy to attack, fail and succumb to later counterattack.
-"Conservative" strategy of keeping ideal garrison and sending the rest to battles
-Offensive strategy with minimal garrison and trying tactics like outmaneuvering your enemy.

All would have their drawbacks built in their nature itself. The first one would fail when enemy would arrive with bigger army and will decide to wait. Castle full of people would starve quickly. The secod one just wouldn't have any strong points and the last would give you good attacking power, but you would loose provinces quickly with all the negative effects implied (like big troubles when the peasant uprising will come)
 
Yes another important factor was that the important nobles were themselves fighting in the army and no matter how chivalric they were supposed to be didn't really liked to risk their lives in a lot of big open battles (while in a lost siege they could be quasi sure to be just ransomed, at worse, and were even often let free in exchange of surrendering the place). Fighting and losing big open battles while refusing to make peace was probably the best way to lose vassal loyalty fast.

Adding the notion of decisive battle would definitively model the period better.
Say a battle would be considered decisive if more than 50% of the remaining forces of each opponent are engaged at the same time.

At the end of the battle, the loser would have the option to send an automatic peace proposal representing what the nobles think the opponent desserve (it would be for example offering vassalization if he is of a lower title level and control fewer provinces than the winner, agreeing to evacuate any province he controls if the loser control more territory than the winner or letting in addition any claimed province the opponent control if any if the winner controls more, or giving one non controlled claimed province if no side control enemy provinces and the enemy has a claim, or renouncing his claims if the enemy has none, or paying an important tribute if no provinces are claimed by either side and vassalization isn't possible).

If the loser refuse to do so he would get an huge loyalty drop from his vassals and noble class, especially the vassals that were engaged in the decisive battle as they have seen death close. If the loser surrender but the winner refuse to accept this peace, the winner would get a huge piety drop and lose some relations with other rulers (I would have said "gain some badboy", but there will be no badboy if strategium alliance preview is exact).

Of course, if such system is implemented the AI would need to be coded to know when it's a good idea to provoke or avoid a decisive battle. A weaker side may find an interest to show the courage of his nobles by fighting a decisive battle early so they just ask him to propose vassalization or one province if he loses, and other rulers support this offer. The stronger side would logically favor conquest of claimed provinces before forcing the enemy to give up ownership in a decisive fight.
 
Might be an idea to implement a wargoal system in a similar manner as the one in Vicky. Reducing the total war feeling, could help a lot.
 
battles that are almost random but highly decisive. A lost battle should cause castles to surrender, army morale to evaporate, noble loyalties to drop, militia to refuse the callout, and pious vassals to change sides.

Um...so the point of the game would be to reload until you randomly win?
 
'Knight of Honor' is a great game in that perspective. Even though it isn't as deep compared to PI games and lacks proper multipayer, but it has some really good innovations nevertheless.
I'm not expecting absolutely tactical battles a la Total War or KoH style, some sort of abstraction is understandable, but different battle scenarios (sortie, ambush, open field, camp defending etc.) would be great addition. Not even to mention all the possibilities that freely roaming troops on the map would allow coupled with different types of settlements in the same province.

i totally agree with this. i've been waiting for a Knights of Honor 2 for ages and it still hasnt eventuated. maybe CK2 will fill the void. the battle system just cant be like EU3 or Vicky2 where it is all about numbers or techs and you ping pong armies around the map.
 
and then there wer once upon a time games like Imperium Galactica II Alliances. Yes annoying fast wars and utter annihilation unless prepared at all times.

But it had an intresting feature.
After colonising a planet you built individual buildings next to each other, or spread out. Including fortifications.
The usual thing after an invasion, ie getting ships filled with tanks transported there, was to kill all enemy tanks and then destroy their forts. Thus gaining control of the planet with all facilities.

However, there was a alternative way to fight, by blowing up all the sustaining buildings and then retreat... the massive population would begin starving and the rebel. Or just a quick hit and run blowing up enemy ship- and/or tank-building facilities. Sometimes this dirty fighting is the only way to win ;)
 
Um...so the point of the game would be to reload until you randomly win?

If you consider that "the point" of ck1 was to reload until this emir of Sevilla or that king of germany having too big armies don't declare war to you, then probably the point of ck2 will be for you the same kind of thing.
 
On paper this would make the game absolutely amazing for the warfare side of things but i really can't see the warfare side of things in this game being any different than the rest of Paradox games sadly you never know though.
 
i totally agree with this. i've been waiting for a Knights of Honor 2 for ages and it still hasnt eventuated. maybe CK2 will fill the void. the battle system just cant be like EU3 or Vicky2 where it is all about numbers or techs and you ping pong armies around the map.
Actually it can and will be, except hopefully not so much ping-pong.