Atwix Legacy with Denmark: A Multicultural European Union

[mackwolfe]

Atwix Legacy with Denmark: A Multicultural European Union

For people in developed countries, "Denmark" is a mythical place that is known to have good political and economic institutions: it is stable, democratic, peaceful, prosperous,[and] inclusive ------- Francis Fukuyama (The Origins of Political Order)​

I got the inspiration for this run after enjoying having a vassal swarm at my disposal in the Oda Shogunate AAR . I have wanted to do the atwix legacy achievement for a long time, and I thought I that it would be the perfect opportunity to replicate a vassal swarm without being the Shogun or the HRE with revoking the privilegia.

As a reminder, the Atwix Legacy achievement is this :

It requires the player to have 10 personal unions at the same time . Now, as the title suggested, I intend to create a European Union of sorts. And my 2 official aims are as follows:


1. Finish the run with all of Europe under Denmark or her subjects. At least 10 of those subjects should be personal unions ( for the achievement)
2. Have every province in Europe governed by a nation that is either same culture group , or accepts the culture of the province ( i.e no red culture labels in the province interface). No European should feel like a second class citizen in his own country .

Rule 2 has two purposes. First, prevent this from being a simple conquest run . If I have Denmark conquer too much, I would run out of accepted culture slots, or would need to culture convert many provinces. Second, it prevents border gore. The subjects of Denmark would need to follow culture boundaries which would make for a nice map ( unlike my recent Oda run which was a cartographer's nightmare). From a role play perspective, it is very appropriate. Denmark is , after all, peaceful , prosperous, and inclusive.

Why Denmark? Mainly because I have not played them before. But also because they start with 2 PUs ( Sweden and Norway) and have ideas, missions and an age ability that dovetail well with this aim. I will detail those in a second intro post where I will do a deep dive into Danish ideas, missions and events.

Now, I would be remiss if I do not mention the person after whom the achievement, and therefore this run , is named. Atwix does not need an introduction in AARLand . As many of you recall, he was an avid AAR writer and commenter. And in my first phase of writing AAR ( before I took a long hiatus during COVID) , he helped me a lot with game advice, and encouraged me to write as well ( and even nominated me for writAAR of the week ) . @Tom D. who still frequents these boards, remembers those days . When I came back to eu4 last year, I was very saddened to learn that atwix had passed away from cancer . So I am dedicating this AAR to his memory. I wish so much that he could follow it with us.

Atwix, old friend, this run is for you.

 

[Chac1]

Great that you are dedicating this to one of the greats of AARland (and that he has an achievement marked with his handle).

I am far behind in your Shogun AAR but slowly catching up. I will definitely follow this one too. How can I not follow an AAR with Danes as the centerpiece of the action?

Good luck to you.

 

[StrategyGameEnthusiast]

Best of luck!

It'll be interesting how the borders shape up due to Rule 2's existence.

 

[mackwolfe]

It'll be interesting how the borders shape up due to Rule 2's existence.

Ideally each culture group would have one PU junior partner leading it.

These are the culture groups per wiki

I count 13 groups in Christian Europe. Add Mishir and Caucasus groups for Geographic Europe. PLus Turkish for eu4 Europe ( non christians will need to be vassals not PU's unless we convert them somehow).

Of course AI nations can accept cultures outside their group. For example if I PU Hungary, they will probably keep Croatian accepted. But may not have Serbian or Bosnian accepted if it is just one or 2 provinces.

For reference, this is the culture map from Wiki

But yeah, I don't know how it will turn out either.

 

[mackwolfe]

So I briefly mentioned why Denmark in the opening post. Here I will go into detail about Denmark's missions and events which will affect this run a lot. I will break this post into topical sections instead of going through the mission tree. If you have played Denmark since Lions of the North came out, then much of this is familiar. If you played them before that DLC, I believe they are a lot different now . And that is because the Devs gave Sweden a bunch of events that make it hard for Denmark to keep the under control. So we will start with the "Sweden Problem"

SWEDENS LIBERTY DESIRE and EVENT CHAIN​

Sweden has an event chain that bumps up their liberty desire to make it challenging for Denmark to hold on to them. That event chain is described under Denmark in the Wiki, but there are also a couple of events that are under the Sweden Missions in the Wiki that are relevant to our run . We will get those out of the way first:

First off , a very easy mission for the Sweden AI that they typically take within days of game start. By hiring a MIL advisor, they get Johan Vasa as general and +25% lib desire. This means that right away Sweden will become disloyal unless the player anticipates this and does something about it on Nov 11, 1444. Because as soon as Sweden gets lib desire over 50%( even for one day) they will get support from Denmark's rivals and will be very hard to control from then on.

Another mission that could be completed by the AI is the Englebrekt rebellion . I have not seen it in my test runs ( which went to 1460), but I can imagine it happening.

The Wiki does not say which option the AI picks. But one should be prepared for the worse option. So we should always keep Sweden liberty under 25% if possible.

Another event that seems possible to trigger, but I have not seen it in my test runs is "Swedish Allies " mission. If two of Denmark's rivals have 100 opinion of Sweden, then this event can trigger making them support independene .

As Denmark player I can avoid this by starting wars with said rivals/enemies . Otherwise, I am not aware of a way to make a country hate another one ( excepting allies through favor system). So another thing to keep an eye for.


Now on to Denmark itself. It starts with the Kalmar government on tier 1 , which give +2 diplo relations. This is important for a run where I intend to have a large number of subjects, and one of the reasons I picked Denmark. And that Kalmar government can get buffed via mission into the Unified Kalmar Monarchy

The buffed Kalmar gives great bonuses per each PU subject. But to get to that "Ratify Kalmar Union " mission, we need Sweden to complete her "Swedish Dream of Independence" event chain and be under 10% lib desire at the end of it. So here is that event chain,

the chain starts sometimes in the mid 1450s ( via MTTH timer). Initially player would not see any immediate change in Sweden's liberty desire as two modifiers cancel each other out. But the positive modifier decays , while the negative one does not. So Sweden will slowly become more disloyal over time. Ten years later, Denmark gets a temporary stab and Mana boost as relations continue to worsen with Sweden . Then the big event hits another 10 years later ( so around 1475) when the player has a choice : put a massive Pretender rebellion down by force , or execute the Swedish nobility via the Stockholm Bloodbath event.


From the guides out there, most recommend the Bloodbath option. That gives a respite from Swedish liberty desire problems for a while, but makes Sweden a historic rival of Denmark. But eventually the player is likely to integrate Sweden by then anyways. However, I may decide to keep Sweden and Norway as PU's for the achievement , so right now I am not sure what will be the best option come that time. Also, the choice will be affected by the size of the rebellion . From online videos, we are talking about 70K pretender rebels. I did a test run in console to see it

In 1444 we get 64K in first batch of rebels. The number will be higher in 1475 due to technology advance ( which affects rebel stack size formula). If I am ready for the rebellion , I think I may be able to put it down and keep Sweden as a friend and useful subject. I will know more at the time it arrives.

So we listed the challenge that Denmark has to deal with in regards to Sweden . BUt in exchange for this challenge , the devs gave Denmark major buffs as tools and rewards to deal with.

I already mentioned the special Age ability for -30% Lib desire. This should be my first Age ability to take. Denmark starts with 1 Age objective ( 2 PUs) so it is important to get more done. Easiest are Humiliate Rival and Developed City ( over 30 Dev). If I get neither , then I will get the ability after 800/3= 260 months or around 1466 . Assuming I get one of the extra objectives by say 1450 ( e.g by developing Sjaelland for renaissance) , then I should get the age ability by 1462 or so.

Next tool to keep Lib Desire down is Denmark's first nation idea which gives -10% for all subjects. So getting ideas adoped quickly will be high priority for this run .

In addition to the national idea, Denmark has a subject liberty desire bonus in her Absolutism missions :

Getting the second mission will decrease subject liberty desire from development by -25% , which is better than Influence's 7th idea. This means I can have much larger vassals or marches . This is obviously crucial for a project where I may have vassals covering entire culture groups ( this modifier does not affect PU's , but I anticipate Denmark ruling Europe via combination of PUs and vassals).

Now that we covered buffs related to controlling subjects, we will cover economic and miltary buffs.

ECONOMIC and MILITARY buffs
​

Both Norway and Sweden have early missions that can give permanent strong buffs, but at risk of alienating the junior partner.

Most guides recommend taking the buffs in the case of Norway, but going easier on Sweden and taking just the middle option. I think the buffs are just too good to pass and we may just have to beat Sweden into submission. But I will certainly not take that mission till I have secured the Age Ability in Sweden's case. The buffs we get amount to the equivalent of an entire Idea Group , and are one of the reason Denmark is a great nation to do my project with, because that frees up Idea Group slots to take both Influence and Diplomatic early on.

Denmark's mission and ideas related to mercenaries.

Denmark has two mercenary related missions which give plenty of buffs. These stack on top of the 5th national idea. So ,clearly the Devs intended Denmark to use Mercs . If I stack those with Mercenary ideas, I will be able to use Denmark's economy ( fueled by the buffs from exploiting Sweden and Norway) to become really powerful. And mercenary armies are very useful if you have a vast colonial empire, which Denmark can get without having to sacrifice an idea group for Expansion or Exploration

Denmark can get explorers and colonists from missions that can serve from around 1505 to 1580 or so. That is enough to get to the Cape and beyond and to start a colonial nation or two. Now I do not need to expand outside Europe for my run, but I anticipate using the rest of the world as an economic buff to keep Denmark's large subjects in line.

I will stop this deep dive intro here as it is long already . I had more missions to discuss , like triggering the defensive war against the Hansa, or the mission that moves the capital to London. But those are best discussed in the course of the AAR.

But I hope this chapter gave readers an idea on how powerful Denmark is with the newer DLCs and why I thought they are the best nation to do my "European Union" with.

 

[StrategyGameEnthusiast]

Denmark looks like a great choice; an early challenge in the form of Sweden and its desire for independence, but the ability to become very powerful once that challenge is mitigated.

 

[Micutio]

Very cool idea for an AAR. Looks like for me there will be much to learn from this!
In my current campaign I moved Norway over to Canada wholesale because Sweden rampaged all over Northern Europe.
Looking forward to see an alternative vision where the Danish keep them in check

 

[Vulkandrache]

Thank you for honoring his legacy

 

[Killcrazy13]

Very cool and thanks for sharing that Atwix info. I've followed along on your different achievement runs and would really love to see you continue them as they are more interesting than the many blob-style videos on Youtube.

 

[Mismangaement]

This looks like a fun follow. I got the achievement by making vassals, using the put member of dynasty on throne interaction, releasing and claiming throne. Always an option if you are having trouble pu-ing the normal way, only problem is sometimes they can have average or strong heirs from this

 

[Cora Giantkiller]

Atwix was a legend. I've read his old EU4 AARs and they were astonishing; he did things in that game that I couldn't imagine being able to do.

 

[MatthewP]

Years ago I learned how to *actually* play the game reading Atwix's AARs. @mackwolfe you play the game very differently but you share his creativity in (ab)using the rules of the game in unique new ways and the rare gift to present these shenanigans in a way that's interesting, easily understandable and fun to read. I've also gotten back into playing after a multi-year hiatus largely inspired by these AARs, so thanks! This looks like another good one.

 

[mackwolfe]

Great that you are dedicating this to one of the greats of AARland

Thank you for honoring his legacy

Atwix was a legend

Years ago I learned how to *actually* play the game reading Atwix's AARs.

Indeed , Atwix was one of OGs of AARland . I am glad I got the chance to honor him with an AAR. thank you for your supportive responses.

How can I not follow an AAR with Danes as the centerpiece of the action?

Very cool idea for an AAR. Looks like for me there will be much to learn from this!

The fun thing about writing AAR is the writer gets to understand the game better. I already got better at analyzing events by trying to explain the Sweden event chain . THat chapter was as much for me as a reference as for you all. And I think this AAR will be very instructive as to the intricacies of subject liberty management and PUs.

love to see you continue them as they are more interesting than the many blob-style videos on Youtube.

I've also gotten back into playing after a multi-year hiatus largely inspired by these AARs, so thanks!

These are the best of compliments. Thank you. I do in fact strive to do something other than pure blobbing because, to be honest, there are a ton more players out there better at it than I am . In fact, in many of my AARs I insert an "anti-blobbing" rule to make it different.

 

[mackwolfe]

I got the achievement by making vassals, using the put member of dynasty on throne interaction, releasing and claiming throne. Always an option if you are having trouble pu-ing the normal way,

Thank you for bringing this up. I read about it on Reddit but have not done it myself before. It is my intention to actually create culture-homogeneous PUs that way (e.g vassalize someone in Ireland, feed them the entire island, break vassal and make them a PU like you said.

Since you did this already, did you have trouble keeping those PUs later because of relation issues ? Because if I am reading wiki correctly you get a huge relations malus when you break vassal , and then there will be another one for claiming throne.

only problem is sometimes they can have average or strong heirs from this

Can't you just truce break after claiming throne?

 

[Mismangaement]

Thank you for bringing this up. I read about it on Reddit but have not done it myself before. It is my intention to actually create culture-homogeneous PUs that way (e.g vassalize someone in Ireland, feed them the entire island, break vassal and make them a PU like you said.

Since you did this already, did you have trouble keeping those PUs later because of relation issues ? Because if I am reading wiki correctly you get a huge relations malus when you break vassal , and then there will be another one for claiming throne.



Can't you just truce break after claiming throne?

It helps to have returned cores or such before hand but typically you can get them back above 0 before your king dies, if you are worried I'd just wait until you have a fairly young monarch. I always truce broke them but sometimes the interaction does provide an heir. I assume the game treats it like your king dies and sometimes you get an heir instantly, in my experience it's most often no heir or weak heir but I have had to save scum a couple strong and average heirs

 

[Steckie]

Any rules regarding culture conversion before you start your run?

 

[mackwolfe]

Any rules regarding culture conversion before you start your run?

Good question. And good timing. BEFORE we start the run

First, culture shift is OK . And even tag switching. The achievement does not require Denmark. And my European Union can be led by anyone .

Culture conversion is allowed , but it cannot be the main way to make provinces accepted culture. In other words, I do not want to stack culture conversion modifiers and make EUrope Danish . I think culture converting a place like Riga ( Balten culture) should be totally in line with the role play of the run. It is a single province and wasting a culture slot on it is not worth it. Or converting GOtland from Swedish to Danish if I culture shift to something outside the Scandinavian group.

I have not come up with a way to formulate this rule precisely. THere is a soft cap on using conversion in that DIP points will be valuable since I am likely to be well over the limit in subjects . But I am thinking along lines of "I am allowed to convert a maximum of 3 provinces from any specific culture throughout the run". Less than that may be too limiting. MOre than that can be abused to fully absorb certain cultures and eliminate a slot.

Another issue is how long I can hold on to wrong culture provinces?. Obviously I will have to annex land to give to vassals later etc . Also time is needed to state land before making its culture accepted. And sometimes I want to hold onto land for a long time for strategic reasons, but will later give to vassals.

When I first came up with the run idea, I was only thinking about the end state, when the run is over. That is when I would do the culture check . But that opens the way to abuse by annexing everything first then later releasing vassals at the end when I am super strong. So I am thinking a rule along the lines of "once a wrong culture province is annexed, I have 50 years to give it to a vassal, accept its culture or begin to culture convert it ".

I am open for suggestions on a precise way to formulate the rules.


PS: none of this applies outside Europe.

 

[jak7139]

I played Denmark a long time ago, but that was before the DLC. It's interesting to see from your mission post what has changed. Do you have these achievements already?

 

[Steckie]

How about this: you can culture convert as many provinces as you want, but no culture may be eradicated from Europe

So exiling is not allowed and at least 1 province per culture left at the end.
It makes the rule short and simple.

The 50 year rule seems good as well.

 

[MatthewP]

I have not come up with a way to formulate this rule precisely. THere is a soft cap on using conversion in that DIP points will be valuable since I am likely to be well over the limit in subjects . But I am thinking along lines of "I am allowed to convert a maximum of 3 provinces from any specific culture throughout the run". Less than that may be too limiting. MOre than that can be abused to fully absorb certain cultures and eliminate a slot.

It might be interesting to give yourself a cap on total culture conversions. For example 20 over the entire run. Then it's a more strategic decision about when and how to use them - yes you might eliminate a culture, but there is a high opportunity cost.

Another issue is how long I can hold on to wrong culture provinces?. Obviously I will have to annex land to give to vassals later etc . Also time is needed to state land before making its culture accepted. And sometimes I want to hold onto land for a long time for strategic reasons, but will later give to vassals.

When I first came up with the run idea, I was only thinking about the end state, when the run is over. That is when I would do the culture check . But that opens the way to abuse by annexing everything first then later releasing vassals at the end when I am super strong. So I am thinking a rule along the lines of "once a wrong culture province is annexed, I have 50 years to give it to a vassal, accept its culture or begin to culture convert it ".

This seems like a good rule, but potentially annoying to track. Another option that may be more UI-supported is to limit yourself to only holding a certain percentage of total dev in non-accepted cultures, and you must be under that % by the end of each decade.

How about this: you can culture convert as many provinces as you want, but no culture may be eradicated from Europe

So exiling is not allowed and at least 1 province per culture left at the end.
It makes the rule short and simple.

This is another reasonable way to go. But could the AI mess it up? I forget if/when the AI will culture convert.