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unmerged(51324)

First Lieutenant
Dec 4, 2005
226
0
First of all, Id like to extend my gratitude to those people within and without of Paradox that selflessly invest their time in making what is already a great game perhaps the most historical and realistic multi-dimensional strategic WW2 simulation on the planet. With that in mind, I hope the developers will lend some impartial objectivity to whatever amount of merit may exist in my post. The following are a few areas in need of development, IMO, and short of information indicating the contrary:

1. Geographic Carrying Capacity:
A rather abstract and yet down to earth concept. There has been little formal acknowledgment of this principle by any wargame (to my knowledge) outside of what appears to be an arbitrary stacking limit. To achieve an understanding of what a given geographical settings Carrying Capacity should be, I use Gibraltar as a model. Gibraltars peace-time population is nearly 30,000, and at that number it is one of the most dense populations in the world. It has roughly 8 miles of coastline, 2.5 sq. mi. of space, and a unique mountainous rock as a kind of natural fortress looming over the straits with miles of tunneling in and about it. To get an understanding of a given areas war-time emergency Carrying Capacity, I obtain the number (inductively) virtue the hexagon and the number 6, representing the individual surrounded by 6 points of objective environment, multiplied by the peace-time population Carrying Capacity. Given that Gibraltars peace-time C.C. is a population no greater than 35,000, then 35,000 x 6 = 210,000. If the average infantry division is 20,000, then there would be a 10 division limit. In more specific numbers, an area of 27,848,400 sq. ft. or 1 sq. mi. would, by these standards, impart the following statistic: given 60% of the average square mile of land-surface space is able to be humanly garrisoned, then with maximum C.C. there is one soldier per every 198 sq. ft. + equipment and whatever peace-time population is present. That is fairly maxed-out by my laymans terms.

I had noticed from other peoples posting that Gibraltar can be garrisoned way above what may in fact be realistic, and hope if true, that some attention might be given the matter, and a realistic stacking limit be set.

2. Ultra.
I have not seen any mention of it. To simulate Ultra, the normal fog of war should be lifted in a given area and be viewable from a distance - including enemy land, air, and sea units. It should be an earned Tech available to both sides of the war.

3. Combined Arms (justified?)
Modifiers in this instance may be more applicable under more specific conditions. As I understand that a Panzer division, and for example, is already combined arms to some extent, why should there necessarily be a combined arms benefit if stacked with Infantry or even Mechanized Inf.? If I attack a purely armored stack of divisions (and to what extent they are pure armor) with a Tank div. and Mech div. what benefit is there, in terms of initial confrontation at least, in having small-arms fire as the attacker? Tanks were designed to negate small-arms, so why would the combined arms attacker necessarily have a benefit when attacking armor? If it is a rule prompted by game balance, such that the games design wants to encourage more than the production of tanks, then let realism dictate the necessity. Certain types of units perform better in certain types of terrain, and that is the primary reason you wouldnt want a steam-roller army. Tanks suffer attacking cities and forests, Infantry suffers attacking hills and mountains, Mechanized Infantry doesnt suffer attacking hills, but suffers attacking mountains and forests, etc. But then if you can afford it, and it works for you, and its realistic, why not build 90% armor. Why not? Because of combined-arms benefit? It surface-seems to me fallacious. But, what I do know is the wide and profound impact that a modification such as combined-arms has on a games tactical and strategic constitution should be given realistic credence.

Afterall, game-balance itself means that the game, in this instance, is not necessarily realistic nor historic because otherwise this other thing over here given greater ramifications doesnt work historically and/or realistically. But, if its game-balance, what is broke without small-arms advantageously attacking tanks?

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I'm not a specialist and I might be wrong but:
For number 1 and 2 I think is it not to made because of a game engine.
For number three and infantryman against a tank?
At the beginning of the war armors were light armoured and a man with explosives could easily blow it up, also polish anti tank rifle Kb. Ur. wz. 35 could shot trough PzKw I and II and kill it crew.
In the late war years there were bazookas and panzerfausts etc.
 
Better example was the boys anti tank rifle made by the brits. (.55 calibre explosive round).
 
Sir Humphrey said:
Better example was the boys anti tank rifle made by the brits. (.55 calibre explosive round).

No specialist by any means here. Just applying laymans logic. In both your instances, what is the benefit of the tank rifle and the bazooka in and above being faced off with another tank? IOW, do you really believe if you are a defending tank that you are better off being attacked by two tanks rather than by a bazooka/tank rifle and a tank?
 
Maatuser_Re said:
1. Geographic Carrying Capacity...

2. Ultra...

Limits to the capacity of a provence and the way in which intellegence information is conveyed is hardoced and will have to be changed by Paradox. If these are topics that you feel truely about, feel free to post on the improvements thread Here.


3. Combined Arms (justified?)...

I feel that the combined arms benefit is something that is justified given real world experience. Nowhere have we seen armor corps that don't include an infantry division or two. I think that this shows that there is a real world advantage to having armor divisions operate with infantry divisions.

In terms of how well infantry can attack tanks. Without infantry support tanks are highly vulnerable. In locations where there was cover, the tanks needed infantry to protect their flanks from close attack. This was both on a tactical level as well as a stratigic level.

On a tactical scale infantry would move with the armor in close combat situations. Once enemy troops were close to your tanks, they could kill them whether it was through the use of designed anti-tank weapons or improvised weapons.

In a stratigic situation, you don't want your armor divisions to have to control territory for a long period of time. Armored units are notoriously maintenance intensive compared to infantry divisions. They are also usually smaller in terms of boots on the ground.

The use of the combined arms bonus is a game mechanics way of simulating these advantages and penalizing the player for unhistorical play. Even in modern conflicts, you will see armored divisions and infantry divisions fielded together for mutual support. MDow
 
Let's see here...

#1. Can't be done. The game engine has no way for this to be accounted for and handled. Make the suggestion for Doomsdat.

#2. This is not easy to implement, as we've been trying to since HoI1. This may get alleviated when Doomsday gets released.

#3. This may get looked at, more so in light of what we've already modded in teh tech trees, and what's planned for the doctrinal paths. No guarantees though.
 
MateDow said:
I feel that the combined arms benefit is something that is justified given real world experience. Nowhere have we seen armor corps that don't include an infantry division or two. I think that this shows that there is a real world advantage to having armor divisions operate with infantry divisions.

In terms of how well infantry can attack tanks. Without infantry support tanks are highly vulnerable. In locations where there was cover, the tanks needed infantry to protect their flanks from close attack. This was both on a tactical level as well as a stratigic level.

On a tactical scale infantry would move with the armor in close combat situations. Once enemy troops were close to your tanks, they could kill them whether it was through the use of designed anti-tank weapons or improvised weapons.

In a stratigic situation, you don't want your armor divisions to have to control territory for a long period of time. Armored units are notoriously maintenance intensive compared to infantry divisions. They are also usually smaller in terms of boots on the ground.

The use of the combined arms bonus is a game mechanics way of simulating these advantages and penalizing the player for unhistorical play. Even in modern conflicts, you will see armored divisions and infantry divisions fielded together for mutual support. MDow

Thank you. Very descriptive and enlightening. Yes, as I recall from my somewhat limited historical research that this modus operandi is the effective means of defensive engagement, and I see it as being very desirable and realistic on a defensive level. However, I still do not see combined-arms as necessarily being a viable offensive modification. Given that the current combat system cant distinguish between offensive and defensive modifications, wouldnt the two aspects to such a method of engagement cancel one another out, and such that there would be no combined-arms? Perhaps this example is one of those tactical situations that can't descriminate, and as such, a good offense is a good defense. But, then wouldn't the combined-arms nature of the division itself compensate for this latter context? Or, were there simply not enough footsoldiers in an historical armor division?

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Tankettes and light tanks during WW2, as armoured vehicles, as all the light-armoured vehicles and tanks that we use today, can simply be pierced by 12.5mm/0.50" bullets in medium and short range, and by short/very short range even by 7.62mm and 7.92mm (or 0.303") bullets, naturally FMJ. So, perhaps, a Polish platoon armed with heavy MGs could stop a German platoon armed with PzI and PzII, but this way of thinking would not keep in mind the real weapon of tanks: mobility, infantry would have been anyway static and panzer could have easily beaten it even being at pair in weaponry. But in close combats, without open range, tanks would need support infantry to be protected by anti-tank weapons or even by single "fool" men (Finnish oil bottles, later called "Molotov"; or Italian "Folgore" division paratroopers who at Alamein launched under British tanks with magnetic mines and hand grenades; etc.).

I think all 3 are right questions, and matters to be deeply examined. Maybe all this could lead at least to ideas for a HoI3.
Secret services, covert operations and spy nets ought to be in the game to let it be more historical-like; commandos were largely used during the war (British and Commonwealth Commandos, Italian Incursori, Peiper and Skorzeny etc.) but have no match in the game.
Also the own structure of divisions should be, in my opinion, decided by the player for a more realistic game: e.g. an armoured division, how many tanks, light medium or heavy tanks, how mixed, self propelled artillery, how many artillery regiments, anti-tank and anti-air artillery, how many tanks regiments and how many infantry ones, motorised or mechanised infantry, etc. and for any choices different production and human costs etc.
 
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FilTur said:
Tankettes and light tanks during WW2, as armoured vehicles, as all the light-armoured vehicles and tanks that we use today, can simply be pierced by 12.5mm/0.50" bullets in medium and short range, and by short/very short range even by 7.62mm and 7.92mm (or 0.303") bullets, naturally FMJ. So, perhaps, a Polish platoon armed with heavy MGs could stop a German platoon armed with PzI and PzII, but this way of thinking would not keep in mind the real weapon of tanks: mobility, infantry would have been anyway static and panzer could have easily beaten it even being at pair in weaponry. But in close combats, without open range, tanks would need support infantry to be protected by anti-tank weapons or even by single "fool" men (Finnish oil bottles, later called "Molotov"; or Italian "Folgore" division paratroopers who at Alamein launched under British tanks with magnetic mines and hand grenades; etc.).

I think all 3 are right questions, and matters to be deeply examined. Maybe all this could lead at least to ideas for a HoI3.
Secret services, covert operations and spy nets ought to be in the game to let it be more historical-like; commandos were largely used during the war (British and Commonwealth Commandos, Italian Incursori, Peiper and Skorzeny etc.) but have no match in the game.
Also the own structure of divisions should be, in my opinion, decided by the player for a more realistic game: e.g. an armoured division, how many tanks, light medium or heavy tanks, how mixed, self propelled artillery, how many artillery regiments, anti-tank and anti-air artillery, how many tanks regiments and how many infantry ones, motorised or mechanised infantry, etc. and for any choices different production and human costs etc.

Thank you. Likewise very descriptive and informative. I especially like your suggestion regarding #2 and #3. With #2, a lot of potentially enjoyable detail could be built into the game virtue the concepts related to Ultra. With #3, maybe the choice of, as you imply, a historical or an alternative constitution of the units. I've noticed in the few posts that I've read, that people tend to breeze past the game mechanics and how they relate to #3. I am not well enough versed in the combat system yet to respond; however, I know that in order for your ideas regarding Combined Arms to be fruitful, the issues discussed in my reponse to MateDow (Grand Admiral of Core (above) would have to be layed out in detail so that tactics could be 'developed' along with unit constitution.
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