Battle for Vyborg 1944 - In less than fighting for 5 hours Finland lost its 2nd largest city - why?

[Jopa79]

*This is a history article, not a question, but telling some facts about the exact event

An apartment in Vyborg on June 19th, 1944 - the next day the city had a new host following the Red Army capturing Vyborg. SA-kuva.

Until this day, it still remains mostly unclear, what or which was/were the reason(s) Finland not fighting for the ownership of Vyborg and not defending the major city for more energetic. The Finnish 2nd largest city was lost nearly without a fight in only few hours.

It's easy to say, mostly known of its combat skill in the wilderness, the Finnish Army couldn't master the urban city fighting. However, in 1941 the Finnish Defense Forces re-captured three Finnish cities and one Soviet city. To understand the 1944 catastrophe, one must be aware of the situation which prevailed on the Karelian Isthmus in the summer of 1944.

The Red Army had advanced almost unstoppably for 1 and a half-week - circa 100 kilometres since launching its offensive against Finland on the Karelian Isthmus. Before the June 20th the Finnish Army had been incapable in putting a proper fight against the Soviets. The Finns were on the run, the army was routing and panicked. The situation in the front line changed rapidly and while information reached the staff and HQ officers, it was often obsolete already.

Facial experssions are already serious. 2nd lieutenant giving a speech for his men at a public transport stop a few days before the loss of the city. The 13th century Finnish-Swedish built Vyborg Castle on the background. SA-kuva.

While understanding the seriousness of the situation, the Finnish Army began sending reinforcements and replenishment forces onto the Karelian Isthmus. The Finnish 20th Infantry Brigade received an order to march by a train from the Olonets Karelia to the Isthmus and join the Finnish counter-attack. However, the situation had worsened heavily while the arrival of the brigade and the new order only included to set-up the defense of Vyborg.

The 20th Brigade arrived Vyborg on 18th and 19th of June. There was a full panic in the city. The city had been evacuated of the civilians, but the evacuation was only half-complete while the civilian belongings were only standing alone on the railway station, the rail-yard, on the rail-cars or in the apartments. The city was filled of hundreds of scattered Finnish soldiers fleeing before the Soviet offensive, it wasn't retreat, it was running and routing through the city, there are rumors about officers shooting soldiers in order to stop the running and soldiers shooting the officers in order to carry on the running. Only worsening the dilemma, the evacuation of the city's alcohol storage had failed. The rumor spread and the fleeing soldiers started robbing and drinking the booze. While at last the security guard started breaking the storage and the barrels, the liquor and booze ran loose and drain on the open city-gutters, the fleeing soldiers with the crazy-look in their eyes started their attempt to save the liquor onto their helmets and field-bottles.

During the night between the 19th and 20th of June the stampede began to spread also among the 20th Brigade. On the very early hours, circa 2:00-4:00 am, at the morning dusk, the Soviets began the transmission on their loudspeakers:...-Good morning, you young men of the 20th Brigade. The Red Army knows you're there, sitting on your foxholes. This time, all you and your blood will be sacrificed in order to protect Viipuri. It is useless, there are too few of you, you don't have the air-force, no anti-tank weapons, no armament at all...when did you have your last meal? If you choose to oppose the Red Army, you'll waste your life...we promise to you...if you now leave the city and lay down your arms, you leave as unharmed and free...anyway, the Red Army will drink afternoon tea at Viipuri market square later on today.

At 7:00-8:00 am the Red Army attacked against the Finnish lines in the city, supported by the Soviet air-force and T-34's and KV-tanks. The 20th Brigade countered the Soviet approaching, but the line was already wavering. Without a proper Finnish counter-measure, the Soviets broke through the Finnish line before the noon. However, there was at least a 300-meters-long, unoccupied and emptied of the Finnish defenders gap in the front line, nearly for three hours. This was the time when the Finns started launching the desperate counter-attack. It's rumored, the leading officers were heavily drugged of with pervitin and while they reached the gap in the front line, they were only alone, with just a few soldier among them.

During the first hours of the afternoon, a general Finnish retreat was a prevailing situation in the city having the Soviets following. At the city-center, still today, there stands Patterinmäki - the Battery Hill. An old fortification line, from the Finnish-Swedish era, there the Finns attempted the second-line-in-defense, but failing badly. 5 000 Finnish soldiers retreated or ran through Viipuri, having 40 000 Soviet soldiers following.

There...it had to be left. Viipuri viewed by a Finnish branch-telescope at August 1944 at Tienhaara. The Soviet Union carried on the grand offensive after capturing Viipuri, but couldn't break the Finnish lines at Tienhaara, Äyräpää-Vuosalmi, neither at Tali-Ihantala.

Mannerheim stated the loss of Vyborg as the 'greatest scandal of all the time in the Finnish military history'. Even he doubted, after the Soviets capturing the city, the Finns had lost their will to fight. However, surprisingly, after Vyborg, the Finns managed to hold the line in all fronts, achieving decisive victories and putting a halt for the Soviet offensive.

Viipuri-Vyborg stands in the same rating with Köningsberg-Kaliningrad today.

 

[JodelDiplom]

Viipuri-Vyborg stands in the same rating with Köningsberg-Kaliningrad today.

In which way? Desolate, neglected military outpost of the Russian federation, notable for alcoholism, abhorrent soviet era architecture, and mine fields?

 

[Jopa79]

In which way? Desolate, neglected military outpost of the Russian federation, notable for alcoholism, abhorrent soviet era architecture, and mine fields?

Probably in everything you mentioned. I would also add the population displacement while the Soviet Union resettled at least Vyborg by population whom were unused to live in a city with modern European standards.

The exact connective matter - which I originally meant - is that while it became possible, let's say in the 1970's or in the 1980's, the both cities became travel destinations. This phenomenon (the connective matter between Köningsberg and Viipuri) wasn't probably recognized, but the both cities aroused interest among the people whom originally lived there. The old people and their relatives, people whom were interested about the matter wanted to see what was left about the native culture.

I haven't visited in Köningsberg, but I've been twice in Vyborg. It was a shock to me to see the city in a miserable condition. The old-city-Vyborg, if it would be properly restored, it would a great tourist attraction, the city experienced the Hansa era and saw the raise of the wealthy Finnish traders and merchants in the 18th and 19th century, building huge, block-sized multi-storey houses still standing as dilapidated there

 

[JodelDiplom]

Probably in everything you mentioned. I would also add the population displacement while the Soviet Union resettled at least Vyborg by population whom were unused to live in a city with modern European standards.

The exact connective matter - which I originally meant - is that while it became possible, let's say in the 1970's or in the 1980's, the both cities became travel destinations. This phenomenon (the connective matter between Köningsberg and Viipuri) wasn't probably recognized, but the both cities aroused interest among the people whom originally lived there. The old people and their relatives, people whom were interested about the matter wanted to see what was left about the native culture.

I haven't visited in Köningsberg, but I've been twice in Vyborg. It was a shock to me to see the city in a miserable condition. The old-city-Vyborg, if it would be properly restored, it would a great tourist attraction, the city experienced the Hansa era and saw the raise of the wealthy Finnish traders and merchants in the 18th and 19th century, building huge, block-sized multi-storey houses still standing as dilapidated there

I haven't been to Köningsberg/Kaliningrad and my family has no connection to the place. Still I think I would like to visit once. But one must be prepared for disappointment. Viipuri/Vyborg might have shocked you with neglect, but consider how much worse the city would look had the finnish army dug itself into the city and defended it stubbornly.

Köningsberg was defended, and had been turned into a fortress by the wehrmacht. One of the things the wehrmacht used to do in the last months of the war, when ordered to defend a city, was to site heavy AT guns and light artillery in the city, in buildings that offered some protection from discovery by air, and to "prepare" firing arcs for the guns. This meant that they would blow up and tear down whole building blocs. And once they started firing the heavy AT guns they would blow whole apartment houses and historic buildings to pieces. The attacker would of course, in turn, bring his own tanks and artillery into the city, and blast everything to pieces too.

On the eastern front, the decision to defend a city, was the decision to destroy that city.

Königsberg was about 80% ruins or so once the fighting was over. The entire old city was nothing but a pile of rubble. There was nothing for the soviets to rebuild, so they didn't rebuild the old town. They also didn't rebuild the churches. Or the old royal palace. Kaliningrad is a mostly new city, reusing the street layout but otherwise doing its own thing.

The thing with this destruction is, the wehrmacht and the German leadership knew this long before the actual fighting had moved into Germany. They knew all too well, from the Ukrainian and Belorussian cities, what the effects of urban fighting were. They had invaded the Soviet Union with a mind set on nihilistic disregard for culture, civilization and human life, and learned to be indifferent to the destruction of ancient and cultured cities. Once the war turned against Germany, they casually planned for dealing with total destruction of German cities just like they had learned with Ukrainian and Belorussian cities. They had the luftwaffe make lots of photos of the German cities as they were then, and archive them, and the idea was that they would be rebuilt according to the original look after the war was over. (Officially the idea was that this was all because of the Allied aerial bombing but the destruction of the cities on the eastern part of Germany was clearly on the horizon too, by 1944.) Once the photos were all done, in their mind, it no longer mattered whether this or that historic monument would be destroyed or not. 800 year old medieval tower, built by the teutonic order, located in the middle of the firing arc of an AT gun? Tear out down, so the gun has a better field of fire. 250 year old historic bridge, that Frederick the Great built, located along the expected axis of advance? Prepare it for demolition. Reading about all of that, I felt like Neo felt when Morpheus told him that it was the humans who forever blackened the sky during the war against the machines. Defending means destroying. Be glad Viipuri wasn't defended

 

[Jopa79]

I haven't been to Köningsberg/Kaliningrad and my family has no connection to the place. Still I think I would like to visit once. But one must be prepared for disappointment. Viipuri/Vyborg might have shocked you with neglect, but consider how much worse the city would look had the finnish army dug itself into the city and defended it stubbornly.

Köningsberg was defended, and had been turned into a fortress by the wehrmacht. One of the things the wehrmacht used to do in the last months of the war, when ordered to defend a city, was to site heavy AT guns and light artillery in the city, in buildings that offered some protection from discovery by air, and to "prepare" firing arcs for the guns. This meant that they would blow up and tear down whole building blocs. And once they started firing the heavy AT guns they would blow whole apartment houses and historic buildings to pieces. The attacker would of course, in turn, bring his own tanks and artillery into the city, and blast everything to pieces too.

On the eastern front, the decision to defend a city, was the decision to destroy that city.

Königsberg was about 80% ruins or so once the fighting was over. The entire old city was nothing but a pile of rubble. There was nothing for the soviets to rebuild, so they didn't rebuild the old town. They also didn't rebuild the churches. Or the old royal palace. Kaliningrad is a mostly new city, reusing the street layout but otherwise doing its own thing.

The thing with this destruction is, the wehrmacht and the German leadership knew this long before the actual fighting had moved into Germany. They knew all too well, from the Ukrainian and Belorussian cities, what the effects of urban fighting were. They had invaded the Soviet Union with a mind set on nihilistic disregard for culture, civilization and human life, and learned to be indifferent to the destruction of ancient and cultured cities. Once the war turned against Germany, they casually planned for dealing with total destruction of German cities just like they had learned with Ukrainian and Belorussian cities. They had the luftwaffe make lots of photos of the German cities as they were then, and archive them, and the idea was that they would be rebuilt according to the original look after the war was over. (Officially the idea was that this was all because of the Allied aerial bombing but the destruction of the cities on the eastern part of Germany was clearly on the horizon too, by 1944.) Once the photos were all done, in their mind, it no longer mattered whether this or that historic monument would be destroyed or not. 800 year old medieval tower, built by the teutonic order, located in the middle of the firing arc of an AT gun? Tear out down, so the gun has a better field of fire. 250 year old historic bridge, that Frederick the Great built, located along the expected axis of advance? Prepare it for demolition. Reading about all of that, I felt like Neo felt when Morpheus told him that it was the humans who forever blackened the sky during the war against the machines. Defending means destroying. Be glad Viipuri wasn't defended

It's such a disappointment to think about the devastating hours - everything which was accomplished over the past centuries was lost in just a few moments. 80% in ruins is nearly a total destruction.

Do you happen to know about additional information of the disappearing of the Amber Room? It's claimed that the Germans moved this priceless "Eight Wonder of the World" to Köningsberg Castle, but during the final stages of the war the Amber Room vanished.

Well, Vyborg was not properly defended in 1944 - during the 3rd Battle for Vyborg. However, the city had also suffered heavy damage, about 50%-60% of Vyborg was in rubble or in ruins due to the 1st Battle for Vyborg in 1940 and the 2nd Battle for Vyborg in 1941.

But I agree, Vyborg avoided greater destruction in 1944, because of the stampede and panic got the defender, making city-defending impossible.

 

[Spelaren]

Why did Russia invade Finland in the first place? Sure, Finland was strategically important to a future war against whoever in the baltic sea, and Viipuri was close to Leningrad, but what were the finns gonna do against the russians? A barely industrialized, poor agricultural country with a population of 5 million versus the russian giant? By attacking them in the winter war, and then annexing karelia they guaranteed that Finland would attack them in the future in a funny twist of events instead of keeping on being neutral.

 

[JodelDiplom]

Why did Russia invade Finland in the first place? Sure, Finland was strategically important to a future war against whoever in the baltic sea, and Viipuri was close to Leningrad, but what were the finns gonna do against the russians? A barely industrialized, poor agricultural country with a population of 5 million versus the russian giant? By attacking them in the winter war, and then annexing karelia they guaranteed that Finland would attack them in the future in a funny twist of events instead of keeping on being neutral.

The Finns had close ties with Germany, basically their leadership was the biggest Germany fans you could imagine. Jaeger and all that, as Jopa explained in another thread. Militant warrior movement that volunteered for the German military in WW1, then returned to Finland on German boats and with German guns, crushed the socialist and bolshevik movements in Finland in a bloody civil war, and invited a German prince to come and lead the nation after the war. (Only the prince couldn't come but that's another story) Now it's 1939, these guys are still running the nation, and Germany has built up a gigantic army and boasts publicly about how they hate bolshevism. Finland might be a small, weak nation but they're the biggest Germany simps in all of Europe and they're right next door to leningrad...

What could possibly go wrong...

I mean hey it sucks to be small and weak but you can't seriously say the soviets didn't have valid reasons to fear danger from German troops appearing right next to the nation's second most important city.

 

[cpreston5]

Whatever size of country you are, having a foreign border about a day or two's march from your 2nd most important city is something of a weakness.

Then imagine you are the only Communist state on earth, and you are surrounded by staunchly anti-communist states, you have a paranoid leadership which has an brutally cynical view on foreign relations, and everyone in your leadership has living memory of being invaded from the periphery of the former empire.

Given the choice of just accepting Finland's neutrality, and taking their word that they won't let anyone exploit the USSR's weakness, or starting a border dispute, the answer becomes clear.

I don't think the Soviets were particularly keen on invading Finland, hence them trying to make an exchange. But once negotiations failed, by their way of looking at their diplomatic situation, it was the "safe" option.

The way they saw it, having an enemy 100 miles away is better than having to reckon with unknown factor right at your doorstep.

 

[Henry IX]

Why did Russia invade Finland in the first place? Sure, Finland was strategically important to a future war against whoever in the baltic sea, and Viipuri was close to Leningrad, but what were the finns gonna do against the russians? A barely industrialized, poor agricultural country with a population of 5 million versus the russian giant? By attacking them in the winter war, and then annexing karelia they guaranteed that Finland would attack them in the future in a funny twist of events instead of keeping on being neutral.

I'm pretty sure that Stalin never intended for Finland to continue existing after the war. Unfortunately (for him) the Finns proved to be a very tough nut to crack and the Soviets agreed to a peace treaty to escape a war that was doing huge damage to both their prestige and their armed forces. This left an embittered Finland eager for a chance to regain their lands should Germany invade.

After the surrender in 1944 the Soviets made sure to weaken Finnish autonomy to the point they could not threaten Soviet interests again.

 

[Cavalry]

Stalin agreed to help the allies landing in Normandy, and he chose Finnland to begin the offensive at the same time of the landing.
The British asked Stalin to spare Finnland (not occupy Finnland) in Teheran 1943. Stalin accepted to exchange for bigger gain elsewhere.
16 March 1944: Roosevelt asked the Finn to leave war, no answer.
18 Aprill 1944: Finnland rejected Soviet's peace offer that ask for war reparation about 600 US mil dollars, (and Vyborg of course, it was officially Soviet land since 1940).
10 June, 4 days after D day: Soviet resumed attack on direction of Vyborg.
Then the British told the Finn about Stalin's promise to spare them. The Bristish was at war with Finnland at that time and not sure if this talk was with Stalin' agreement.

25 Aug, the Finn requested Soviet for peace. The final term is US dollars 300 mil plus Petsamo.

These events explain why Soviet has make an offensive toward Finnland, and why they stopped after some time. If the Finn made peace before Soviet's attack, they could have keep Petsamo.

 

[Fulmen]

Why did Russia invade Finland in the first place?

The decision to invade Finland was driven by a desire to spread communism and restore Russia's pre-WWI outer borders. That, and Finland being "free real estate" as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, or so Stalin had thought; the Finns had other ideas.

The Finns had close ties with Germany, basically their leadership was the biggest Germany fans you could imagine. Jaeger and all that, as Jopa explained in another thread. Militant warrior movement that volunteered for the German military in WW1, then returned to Finland on German boats and with German guns, crushed the socialist and bolshevik movements in Finland in a bloody civil war, and invited a German prince to come and lead the nation after the war. (Only the prince couldn't come but that's another story) Now it's 1939, these guys are still running the nation, and Germany has built up a gigantic army and boasts publicly about how they hate bolshevism. Finland might be a small, weak nation but they're the biggest Germany simps in all of Europe and they're right next door to leningrad...

What could possibly go wrong...

I mean hey it sucks to be small and weak but you can't seriously say the soviets didn't have valid reasons to fear danger from German troops appearing right next to the nation's second most important city.

What a load of propaganda hogwash. Name one Germanophile who was in charge of Finnish foreign, domestic or military policy in the 1930s.

 

[JodelDiplom]

What a load of propaganda hogwash. Name one Germanophile who was in charge of Finnish foreign, domestic or military policy in the 1930s.

@Jopa79 can you help with names?

 

[Cavalry]

@Jopa79 can you help with names?

I remember a British book said about a pro German circle in Finnland, not just 1 or 2 persons.
There was Tanner, at one time (1927, when the President had illness) was the PM and President and Chief Army Commander. He was put to Finnish prision for responsible of the war in 1946.
Before and during Winter War he is Foreign minister. After Winter War, Tanner had to resigned but still can recommend Ryti as President, who start negotiated secretly with the German in 1940.

Here is the list of the Finnish that get trial in the wiki:

War-responsibility trials in Finland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The accused[edit]

From the left: Henrik Ramsay, Tyko Reinikka, Antti Kukkonen, Edwin Linkomies, J.W. Rangell, Risto Ryti, Väinö Tanner and T.M. Kivimäki.

Accused	Status	Punishment
Risto Ryti	5th President of Finland	10 years in prison
Jukka Rangell	25th prime minister of Finland	6 years in prison
Edwin Linkomies	28th prime minister of Finland	5 years and 6 months in prison
Väinö Tanner	cabinet minister	5 years and 6 months in prison
Toivo Kivimäki	Finland's ambassador to Nazi Germany	5 years in prison
Henrik Ramsay	cabinet minister	2 years and 6 months in prison
Antti Kukkonen	cabinet minister	2 years in prison
Tyko Reinikka	cabinet minister	2 years in prison

 

[Fulmen]

@Jopa79 can you help with names?

He won't be able to, because such people did not exist. The people calling the shots in 1930s Finland were almost without exception pro-Entente, or at the very least pro-Scandinavia, and also in the case of the military, ex-Czarist officers. Finland's foreign minister in 1937-38, Rudolf Holsti, for instance called Hitler "a mad dog who ought to be shot", in earshot of German representatives.

Finland in 1939 was unwaveringly committed to neutrality and solidarity with the other Nordic countries.

Tanner

Maybe actually read a thing or two about the guy before blindly quoting Stalinist propaganda. Tanner was a democratic socialist and anything but pro-German. Stalinists hated him because in their mind Tanner was among the chief reasons the Finnish working class united with the rest of the nation to successfully fend off the Russians in the Winter War, instead of embracing the Red Army as "liberators".

Also I'm not sure why you're quoting victims of the illegal post-WW2 show trials that practically everyone in the nation saw for what they were (hence why they were all pardoned relatively quickly) as "evidence" of some mythical anti-Soviet pro-German cabal in 1930s Finland. @JodelDiplom's argument was that the Finns in 1939 were, in his words, "the biggest simps for Germans in all of Europe", a patently false claim devoid of any logic that buys straight into 1941-53 Soviet-era Russian propaganda of Finland as a willing pre-war ally of Germany (ironically in 1939-41 the Russian narrative was that Finland was a willing pre-war ally of England; it changed to "Germany" after Barbarossa started). As for the Continuation War-era governments, there were hardly any Germanophiles in those either.

 

[Jopa79]

Why did Russia invade Finland in the first place? Sure, Finland was strategically important to a future war against whoever in the baltic sea, and Viipuri was close to Leningrad, but what were the finns gonna do against the russians? A barely industrialized, poor agricultural country with a population of 5 million versus the russian giant? By attacking them in the winter war, and then annexing karelia they guaranteed that Finland would attack them in the future in a funny twist of events instead of keeping on being neutral.

If we talk about the 1939 Soviet Invasion of Finland - the Winter War - the main reason for the Soviet attack was the secret protocol included in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. This extra clause guaranteed free hands for the Soviet Union considering its interest toward Finland without worrying a German intervention in this matter. The Soviet interest was in annexing Finland and restoring the 1917 border. During the Winter War Germany had indifferent view in this issue and it was very reluctant to give any kind of aid for the Finnish cause.

In the Continuation War the situation had changed while Finland had allied - however the Finns maintaining the thesis "a common enemy, but a separate war" - with Germany. The Finns re-conquered the lost territory on their own and not using German forces in this operation. Regardless of the Finnish view, the Soviet intention, the reason and justification for the 1944 Vyborg-Petrozavodsk Offensive was their consideration, about Finland being an ally of the Nazi-Germany. The Soviet failure during the Winter War was now given a second chance, the objective was same, the annexation of Finland.

Whatever size of country you are, having a foreign border about a day or two's march from your 2nd most important city is something of a weakness.

I wouldn't say it as a weakness, rather a risk of loss. But while founding Vyborg, its future could not be predicted. The area around Vyborg is an ancient site of Karelian trade and culture. For the wars of conquest against Novgorod, during the Third Swedish Crusade, Sweden claimed and acquired the area, finished constructing a castle for security and a base for military operations - city of Vyborg grew around the castle.

I'm pretty sure that Stalin never intended for Finland to continue existing after the war. Unfortunately (for him) the Finns proved to be a very tough nut to crack and the Soviets agreed to a peace treaty to escape a war that was doing huge damage to both their prestige and their armed forces. This left an embittered Finland eager for a chance to regain their lands should Germany invade.

After the surrender in 1944 the Soviets made sure to weaken Finnish autonomy to the point they could not threaten Soviet interests again.

This pretty much the truth in a capsulized form. I would add that the embittered Finns felt justified for their attempt to regain the lost land, but failing in this attempt, Finland found herself in even a more difficult situation after the Continuation War than after the Winter War.

The British asked Stalin to spare Finnland (not occupy Finnland) in Teheran 1943.

Churchill and Roosevelt also emphasized that Vyborg remaining a Finnish city would be vital for the Finns, but Stalin ignored this section.

16 March 1944: Roosevelt asked the Finn to leave war, no answer.
18 Aprill 1944: Finnland rejected Soviet's peace offer that ask for war reparation about 600 US mil dollars, (and Vyborg of course, it was officially Soviet land since 1940).

The Finns didn't answer due to their knowledge - the current Soviet peace demand, unconditional surrender, which would had meant losing its sovereignty, sharing the fate with the Baltic States. Mutually, Finland had asked the United States to occupy Finland to remain the Finnish independence, but the US didn't answer this plea.

Historical affiliations of Vyborg:

Sweden 1293–1710

Tsardom of Russia 1710–1721

Russian Empire 1721–1812

Finland (part of Russia) 1812-1917

Finland 1917–1918

Finnish Socialist Workers' Republic 1918

Finland 1918–1940

Soviet Union 1940–1941

Finland 1941–1944

Soviet Union 1944–1991

Russia 1991–present

Until 1944 the Finnish culture, habits and language had been dominant in the city's history for more than 600 years.

These events explain why Soviet has make an offensive toward Finnland, and why they stopped after some time. If the Finn made peace before Soviet's attack, they could have keep Petsamo.

The Red Army stopped its offensive, because it was brought to a standstill by the Finns, the Soviet forces reserved for breaking the Finnish lines had been consumed before reaching this objective. The claim, Petsamo remaining as Finnish if making peace before 1944 Soviet offensive is not correct. The SU demanded unconditional Finnish surrender before launching their attack and only after the Finns repelled the attack, the Soviets renewed their terms of peace.

What a load of propaganda hogwash. Name one Germanophile who was in charge of Finnish foreign, domestic or military policy in the 1930s.

I have to disagree. The Finnish trend in the 1920's was highly influenced by German tendencies, the German model - the German hegemony among European nations was accepted as a general thinking also in Finland among many, it's visible in numerous events in Finland, let's say, the Jäger Movement - forming the basis of the Finnish Army, the Kindred Nations Wars. This trend lasted until the early 1930's, the rise of the right-wing, banning socialist and communist activity, beating-up common people referencing to nonexistent reasons, establishing the Lapua Movement - which was highly affected by the fascists ideology and the attempt to overthrow the Finnish government and set-up a right-wing dictatorship in Finland, even by arms, if necessary.

Highly affected by the right-wing-thinking was for example one of the superior commanders of the Finnish military, Paavo Talvela, whom moderated his views in the late 1930's.

@Jopa79 can you help with names?

The matter is affiliated with the Lapua Movement and the IKL - Patriotic People's Movement

• Vihtori Kosola
• Iivari Koivisto
• Vihtori Herttua
• Herman Gummerus
• Vilho Annala
• Erkki Räikkönen
• Bruno Salmiala

Italian delegation donates the IKL with a Mussolini bust in 1933. After the Finnish government denied and suppressed the Lapua Movement, IKL proceeded with ideological similarities - Finnish nationalism-Greater Finland-Clerical fascism-Fascist corporatism-Anti-communism-Anti-Sovietism.

I remember a British book said about a pro German circle in Finnland, not just 1 or 2 persons.
There was Tanner, at one time (1927, when the President had illness) was the PM and President and Chief Army Commander. He was put to Finnish prision for responsible of the war in 1946.
Before and during Winter War he is Foreign minister. After Winter War, Tanner had to resigned but still can recommend Ryti as President, who start negotiated secretly with the German in 1940.

Here is the list of the Finnish that get trial in the wiki:

War-responsibility trials in Finland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The accused[edit]

From the left: Henrik Ramsay, Tyko Reinikka, Antti Kukkonen, Edwin Linkomies, J.W. Rangell, Risto Ryti, Väinö Tanner and T.M. Kivimäki.

Accused	Status	Punishment
Risto Ryti	5th President of Finland	10 years in prison
Jukka Rangell	25th prime minister of Finland	6 years in prison
Edwin Linkomies	28th prime minister of Finland	5 years and 6 months in prison
Väinö Tanner	cabinet minister	5 years and 6 months in prison
Toivo Kivimäki	Finland's ambassador to Nazi Germany	5 years in prison
Henrik Ramsay	cabinet minister	2 years and 6 months in prison
Antti Kukkonen	cabinet minister	2 years in prison
Tyko Reinikka	cabinet minister	2 years in prison

After the WWII Finland had to commit with the Allied wishes to arrest and sentence persons on suspicions of war-responsibility. In practice, the Soviet Union ordered the course of this matter.

The Soviet Union allowed the trials to take place in Finland and they were not international, in addition, the Finns themselves set the sentences, not the foreigners. The people considered as war-responsibilities were accused of taking Finland to the Continuation War and not accepting peace during the war - in other words, they were accused of the Finnish attempt to regain the lost territories and not accepting unconditional surrender.

The people on the wikipedia list were the persons accused of as being war-responsibilities, but none of them were pro-German, but representing the Nordic tendency - the neutrality, but when the neutrality didn't save Finland and the foreign states were unwilling to help, the leadership made its only available choice if seeking a strong ally against the Soviet threat.

He won't be able to, because such people did not exist.

Well, I did, and sure there existed such a people.

 

[JodelDiplom]

I remember a British book said about a pro German circle in Finnland, not just 1 or 2 persons.
There was Tanner, at one time (1927, when the President had illness) was the PM and President and Chief Army Commander. He was put to Finnish prision for responsible of the war in 1946.
Before and during Winter War he is Foreign minister. After Winter War, Tanner had to resigned but still can recommend Ryti as President, who start negotiated secretly with the German in 1940.

Here is the list of the Finnish that get trial in the wiki:

War-responsibility trials in Finland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The accused[edit]

From the left: Henrik Ramsay, Tyko Reinikka, Antti Kukkonen, Edwin Linkomies, J.W. Rangell, Risto Ryti, Väinö Tanner and T.M. Kivimäki.

Accused	Status	Punishment
Risto Ryti	5th President of Finland	10 years in prison
Jukka Rangell	25th prime minister of Finland	6 years in prison
Edwin Linkomies	28th prime minister of Finland	5 years and 6 months in prison
Väinö Tanner	cabinet minister	5 years and 6 months in prison
Toivo Kivimäki	Finland's ambassador to Nazi Germany	5 years in prison
Henrik Ramsay	cabinet minister	2 years and 6 months in prison
Antti Kukkonen	cabinet minister	2 years in prison
Tyko Reinikka	cabinet minister	2 years in prison

Which ones are the Jager veterans? The wiki doesn't mention any Jaeger connections. Only one who studied law in Germany and another who learned his trade as a merchant in Hamburg.

 

[Jopa79]

Which ones are the Jager veterans? The wiki doesn't mention any Jaeger connections. Only one who studied law in Germany and another who learned his trade as a merchant in Hamburg.

None of the accused were Jägers - the only Jäger connection was that those responsible-of-war allowed and accepted the Jägers leading the Finnish Army.

 

[LizarDAMN]

Jäegers DID NOT lead Finnish Army at any time during or after the Finnish Civil War, the army was always headed by ex-czarist or Entente (or usually both) educated officers.

There was many mid-level officers and some higher ones with Jaeger background and via them the army regained some German influence, but that's all.

 

[Fulmen]

Well, I did, and sure there existed such a people.

But you didn't: none of those people were in charge of Finnish policy-making. The IKL with its meager 8 MPs in a 200 seat Parliament and 0 cabinet positions didn't call the shots on anything.

Jäegers DID NOT lead Finnish Army at any time during or after the Finnish Civil War, the army was always headed by ex-czarist or Entente (or usually both) educated officers.

There was many mid-level officers and some higher ones with Jaeger background and via them the army regained some German influence, but that's all.

Exactly. A few majors and colonels do not dictate policy, not then, not now. It's not how a parliamentary democracy works.

 

[Cavalry]

Which ones are the Jager veterans? The wiki doesn't mention any Jaeger connections. Only one who studied law in Germany and another who learned his trade as a merchant in Hamburg.

Sorry I am not good in English and Finn matter, just copy the wiki. I mean if we are looking for someone who are responsible for Finn's actions, then Tanner was a very likely starting place. He looks like a King Maker when he can recommend a new president. These old politicians were no need to join the Jaeger, they may just support them.