Become Grand Duke of Tuscany

[ulix]

How do I get my liege, the Kaiser to grant me a kingdom tear Grand Duke title in Tuscany? I've seen it happen when I was playing someone else, so this seems to be one of the kingdom tier vassals that can exist in CK2+...

Is there a way? I've already been Kaiser myself, but couldn't find a way to create it...

Thanks!

 

[ulix]

I just looked it up in an older savegame. Turns out he became (Titular) King of Tuscany (not Grand Duke or anything), but somehow he got this title under the HRE... so how do I get this titular title?

To be honest I haven't really understood how titular titles work in CK2+ anyway, so if someone may explain it would be greatly appreciated.

Edit:
The Kingdom of Tuscany doesn't seem to be listed here either...

So what's up with that? Is it a bug? Do I need to change culture to Italian maybe?

 

[Rylock]

If it's a titular title, you need to be Italian/Lombard or German (if it's under the HRE).

 

[ulix]

Thanks! My dynasty is Occitan, since it started that way in the 1000AD start.

So I read somewehere that only the four or five classical stem duchies are possible kingdom-tier titles under the HRE in CK2+... plus Tuscany?
Why is he called a King then, and not a grand duke or arch duke? I guess what I'm asking is: is there a historical explanation?

Browsin Wikipedia I'm wondering why it's not a margrave, like the margrave of Brandenburg, which is also kingdom-tier.

 

[Slayen]

Thanks! My dynasty is Occitan, since it started that way in the 1000AD start.

So I read somewehere that only the four or five classical stem duchies are possible kingdom-tier titles under the HRE in CK2+... plus Tuscany?
Why is he called a King then, and not a grand duke or arch duke? I guess what I'm asking is: is there a historical explanation?

Browsin Wikipedia I'm wondering why it's not a margrave, like the margrave of Brandenburg, which is also kingdom-tier.

There exists both a Kingdom of Tuscany and Grand Duchy of Tuscany.

CK2+ has the Archduchy of Austria, Margraviate of Brandenburg, and the Grand Duchies of Bavaria, Franconia, Luxembourg, Saxony, Swabia, and Tuscany as titular titles. All having appropriate titles (Archduke, Margrave, Grand Duke) for their holder.

 

[ulix]

Thanks again. So I tried converting to Italian culture, but somehow that didn't give me the possibility to create the Kindom and/or Grand Duchy of Tuscany. And I am in fact duke of Tuscany (and Pisa), and my capital is in Firenze, if that even makes a differnce.
This decision would be in the tooltips under "titles can be created..." and under the intrigue decisions, right?

So why can't I create it? Because I'm emperor at the moment?

I'm still not clear when and how a titular title can be created. The link in my second post gives me a list, and for the titles on the list sure, easy to grasp and understand how they're created. But since Tuscany isn't on the list...

 

[Slayen]

Thanks again. So I tried converting to Italian culture, but somehow that didn't give me the possibility to create the Kindom and/or Grand Duchy of Tuscany. And I am in fact duke of Tuscany (and Pisa), and my capital is in Firenze, if that even makes a differnce.
This decision would be in the tooltips under "titles can be created..." and under the intrigue decisions, right?

So why can't I create it? Because I'm emperor at the moment?

I'm still not clear when and how a titular title can be created. The link in my second post gives me a list, and for the titles on the list sure, easy to grasp and understand how they're created. But since Tuscany isn't on the list...

You need to find the title using the 'Title or Region finder' Open it up and type in Tuscany. The Grand Duchy should be there, select that and it will bring up the screen where you should be able to create it.

 

[ulix]

Never had to create a title this way, but could have thought of it myself... well thank you very much!

 

[ulix]

Okay, so now I have a new and related problem...

So I created the Grand Duchy of Tuscany after my character (as Emperor) died and his son wasn't elected Emperor. Okay cool. It even gave me a tooltip. Thanks again for helping out!

As the newly crowned Grad Duke of Tuscany I gave out one of my duchy titles to one of my courtiers, because as a Grand Duke he'd still be under me. Before (as a Duke) I couldn't give away Duchy titles without losing sovereignty...
So then when the Emperor died I was elected emperor. Fair enough. That of course meant that the new Duke who I gave the Duchy to was now directly under me as Emperor, instead of being under me as Grand Duke.

Then I got an ultimatum to step down... so I did.

The problem: Now that I am Grand Duke again, I've lost sovereignty over the duchy I gave to my courtier when I was Grand Duke before. He is now directly under the Emperor.

Now the only possibility I see in stopping something like this from happening again would be to not become emperor for at least 100 years, so the new duchy can de-jure-drift into my Grand Duchy... and if I give out any other duchies in this time, I'd have to wait even longer...
Which isn't an option, obviously... I became emperor without even trying or casting my own vote for my son...

Is this intentional? If yes then... that would be bad.
It would make playing HRE as someone not in the de jure of the Stem duchies besically unplayable, at least if you want to expand within the HRE and leave the HRE as an electoral monarchy...

 

[zeress]

Okay, so now I have a new and related problem...

So I created the Grand Duchy of Tuscany after my character (as Emperor) died and his son wasn't elected Emperor. Okay cool. It even gave me a tooltip. Thanks again for helping out!

As the newly crowned Grad Duke of Tuscany I gave out one of my duchy titles to one of my courtiers, because as a Grand Duke he'd still be under me. Before (as a Duke) I couldn't give away Duchy titles without losing sovereignty...
So then when the Emperor died I was elected emperor. Fair enough. That of course meant that the new Duke who I gave the Duchy to was now directly under me as Emperor, instead of being under me as Grand Duke.

Then I got an ultimatum to step down... so I did.

The problem: Now that I am Grand Duke again, I've lost sovereignty over the duchy I gave to my courtier when I was Grand Duke before. He is now directly under the Emperor.

Now the only possibility I see in stopping something like this from happening again would be to not become emperor for at least 100 years, so the new duchy can de-jure-drift into my Grand Duchy... and if I give out any other duchies in this time, I'd have to wait even longer...
Which isn't an option, obviously... I became emperor without even trying or casting my own vote for my son...

Is this intentional? If yes then... that would be bad.
It would make playing HRE as someone not in the de jure of the Stem duchies besically unplayable, at least if you want to expand within the HRE and leave the HRE as an electoral monarchy...

That's base CK2 behaviour that has been complained about for years IIRC. From what I remember basically any de Jure dukes of the HRE stay with the emperor and any de Jure vassals of the king (in your case none) stay with you. If you had dukes outside of the HRE they would have stayed with you for example. All de Jure dukes of the HRE go to the next Kaiser and all de Jure dukes of your title, which is none. Sadly I dont think there's anything that we can do about it.

If you move your capital outside of the de Jure HRE I think it disqualifies you from the vote however.

 

[ulix]

That is frustrating.

 

[ulix]

I have no real idea of modding this game, so excuse me if this is a stupid suggestion...

But couldn't you somehow make it work by making titular kingdoms behave like custom kingdoms? Don't custom kingdoms get their areas as de jure right after foundation?

Edit: I'm just realizing this would only half solve my problem...

 

[zeress]

I have no real idea of modding this game, so excuse me if this is a stupid suggestion...

But couldn't you somehow make it work by making titular kingdoms behave like custom kingdoms? Don't custom kingdoms get their areas as de jure right after foundation?

Yes, but that's only the case in vanilla. We removed that aspect as it's pretty broken to be granted de Jure land like that.

Edit: I'm just realizing this would only half solve my problem...

Indeed, wouldn't solve non-de Jure people leaving you regardless.