Becoming the greatest of Khans is ridiculously overpowered and needs a lot of balancing.

[dasvira]

First of all I really enjoyed the DLC. I think nomads are really fun and unique to play arround. I was binging the new DLC as Gengis Khan and had a great time, despite how easy it became.

It is usually the case that when a DLC is released, the new mechanics are OP until the developers can fine tune and adjust it. But becoming the greatest of Khans is basically turning the game on god mode. I took the decision as Temujin on my mid 40s (at the time my empire only enconprised the Tarim Basin and Northwestern China above Tibet. From that on the game was just ridiculously easy and not challenging (much more than CK3 usually is) and I casually conquered the world in 20 years. I wonder if the devs have even played it before releasing the game.


I am posting the modifiers of the trait for reference, then I will discuss what I think are the most OP aspects of it and some suggestions.

• Your realm becomes way to stable. I never had a single rebellion during my playtrough. Not even once. Not sure how to fix that, but the mongols did have a lot of problem with unrest and rebellions.
• You make INSANE amount of money trough looting settlements with the new CB. Just look at my treasure.
• The military bonuses are WAY over the top 100% stats fo all cavalry and 50% herd gain are just crazy. It is basically IMPOSSIBLE to beat the mongol army. Even a late game optimized and fully upgraded feudal or admin army (i created plenty of those in other campaings) fighting on defensive terrain would get insta wiped. I feel like giving it a more modest bonus of 20% combat hability and 20% horde conversion would be more fitting (just brainsotrming some numbers), considering all the military bonuses nomads get trough their buildings.
• The siege bonus are way too insane ass well +0.5 dayly siege with all the other modiffiers you can get maky your horses almost as good at sieging as cannons. I was insta sieging most holdings and even Constatinople (the most fortified holding in the game) took less than a week to siege (image bellow). Combined with the fact that late game nomadic armies move as fast as an F1 car with all the movement bonuses they get make it kind of comical: you can just casualy walk in with your horde insta destroying all castles. Tunning it down to 0.1 or maybe 0.2 siege progress for cav units is much more appropiate and still very powerfull considering your late game army is basically all cavalry.
• Finally it is just ridiculous how everyone is so eager to be subjulgated after you win a few onslaught. Everyone but emperors, confederations and stubborn characters is eager to submit to to you. I annexed the vast majority of the map peacefully in couple months as most rulers from from india to subsaharan Africa (even the Pope lol) just casually accepted my rule. I believe this interaction should only be accepted be rulers in the steps or rulers bellow king level. Are there historical exaples of large realms simply surrending to the mongols without a fight?

Although I had a lot of fun being overpowered, I certainly doesn't feel right. The mongols should probably be the most overpowered realm in the game, but this is simply hilariously way over the top. My only concern would be how an AI mongol empire would work should they get nerfed too much.

 

[dasvira]

Also 100% iron men, before anyone says anything.

 

[X_FloW]

usually i dont like op stuff and i like some difficulty in the game, but im willing to give genghis khan specifically a pass

if any steppe warlord can conquer the world then yes it's a problem and needs serious rebalancing, but if it's just genghis khan im willing to give it a pass, it's a specific playthrough that many players have a fantasy of conquering the world due to pop culture. but who knows, maybe the china dlc will change things once the map is expanded

 

[ray243]

usually i dont like op stuff and i like some difficulty in the game, but im willing to give genghis khan specifically a pass

if any steppe warlord can conquer the world then yes it's a problem and needs serious rebalancing, but if it's just genghis khan im willing to give it a pass, it's a specific playthrough that many players have a fantasy of conquering the world due to pop culture. but who knows, maybe the china dlc will change things once the map is expanded

The problem of not having China in this map basically. A lot of threat the Mongols and nomads face from their south-eastern flank is missing when China is the one that took up a lot of time, energy and manpower of the Mongols and the nomads.

Mongol conquest of China took a very long time to finish.

 

[dasvira]

usually i dont like op stuff and i like some difficulty in the game, but im willing to give genghis khan specifically a pass

if any steppe warlord can conquer the world then yes it's a problem and needs serious rebalancing, but if it's just genghis khan im willing to give it a pass, it's a specific playthrough that many players have a fantasy of conquering the world due to pop culture. but who knows, maybe the china dlc will change things once the map is expanded

As I mentioned at the end of the post. Absolutely Gengis Khan should be the most OP character in the game. But at the current state he is basically a god. I was going for the achievement the Stallion who would mount the world, but was expecting to complete the world conquest only in a few generations probably in one or 2 centuries (AFAIK the achievement should be attainable by Gengis descendants, right?), instead it was very easy to conquer everything once I got the decision. I would rather have longer and deeper playtrough.

Also Gengis didn't really conquer a ton of stuff outside of the extended steppes and had many setbacks along his life. Most of the mongol conquest was done by his successors. One idea would be to make the Greatest of Khans apply mainly in the extended steppes regions. But give his successors up to a few generations a trait or modifier giving significant bonuses and making the AI way more aggressive (except against other successor states).

Mongol empire at the death of Gengis Khan:

 

[WTH666444]

I think I'd just get rid of the trait entirely. Anything it does should already be handled by Unrestricted Dominance and the Yurt.
It's as removed from any of the game's mechanics as the Conqueror trait is, which I also deactivated.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

If you think thats op, try playing before khans of the steppe and becoming greatest of khans in 867, trebuchets when not all people have onagers or maxxed out forts

 

[DiabloDeVille]

The problem of not having China in this map basically. A lot of threat the Mongols and nomads face from their south-eastern flank is missing when China is the one that took up a lot of time, energy and manpower of the Mongols and the nomads.

Mongol conquest of China took a very long time to finish.

But the chinese dynasties weren't really threatening to invade core mongolia, the southern song took a long time to conquer, but the initial conquests of northern china, and thus securing a buffer land didnt take that long.

 

[aegeann13]

The whole steppe gameplay is ridiculously OP right now (like any freshly-launched pdx dlc), you don't even need to be 'The Greatest of Khans'.
Yesterday, I saw Khazaria bringing both the Byzantines and Abbasids under tribute in one ruler's reign.

 

[ray243]

But the chinese dynasties weren't really threatening to invade core mongolia, the southern song took a long time to conquer, but the initial conquests of northern china, and thus securing a buffer land didnt take that long.

It took after the death of Ghengis for the Jin to finally fall. It's also time for the Mongols to start gaining more and more Chinese units to finally make a difference in terms of manpower and siege resources.

 

[kgptzac]

The most problematic aspect of Temujin's god mode is the event troops. He can keep the trait but he should be building MAA like everyone else. Hopefully we'll see a swift nerf to the greatest of khans like we saw with the overpowered landless adventure armies.

 

[frostbiyt]

Becoming the greatest of Khans is ridiculously overpowered

Always has been. The buffs are necessary for the AI to stand a chance of rivaling the real Ghengis Khan, but in the hands of the player, it's absolutely busted. I think it's fine though. If you don't want to press the "I win" button, you don't have to. If the AI was better though, they could tone down the trait.

Also 100% iron men, before anyone says anything.

I wasn't doubting you before, but now... And just so you know, the Ironman restriction for achievements was dropped a while ago.

 

[dasvira]

Always has been. The buffs are necessary for the AI to stand a chance of rivaling the real Ghengis Khan, but in the hands of the player, it's absolutely busted. I think it's fine though. If you don't want to press the "I win" button, you don't have to. If the AI was better though, they could tone down the trait.

Other historical invader like the Seljuk do a pretty goo job without any special trait (he does get some modifiers and a shit ton of spawned troops though). He usually conquer the entire empire of Persia at a minimum which is comparable to Gengis conquest.

I have not see how the AI Gengis perform tough. I will run a test.

I wasn't doubting you before, but now... And just so you know, the Ironman restriction for achievements was dropped a while ago.

I did have a few unexpected and fortunate crashes when I didn't succeed at my university visits, or when most of my family got diseased and died due to a random pandemic

 

[dasvira]

I actually run a few observer games to see how the AI mongols perform. I think it is alright. Those are the results the first screenshot is at the time of Genghis Death and at the time of the Partition.

Game 1:

Game 2:

Game 3:
This one was wild. Genghis performed really well and was suceded by his 19yo grandson. At one point it seemed like the Mongols would conquer all of Eurasia minus India. However, they got Crusaded for Burgundy (the crusaders had a force of 190 000) and after a few years got attacked by the bizantines for the caucasus. They managed to win both wars but it took over a decade.

A FEW NOTES:

• The AI gets the greatest of Khans trough an unique event for AI and doesn't need to do the war of defiance. But this event does not give them the 'Golden Lineage' dynasty modifier that gives +1000 vassal limit. Since nomads have a naturally very low vassal limit, every time there is a succession several vassals get instantly independent.
• The successor states NEVER feudalize and neither do any duchy granted by the horde. This make all of them very weak (since there is very little local fertility in those areas) and they usually collapse within a few years despite usually converting to the local religion and having a big starting army. I hope this get fixed.

 

[OnceSetCannotBeChanged]

It’s CK3. It’s going to be stupidly easy. This does seem like it’s egregiously overpowered even for CK3 though.

 

[Slime99]

Maybe the siege progress should be removed from light cavalry and archer cavalry so that heavily fortified places can withstand the Mongols more easily?

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Other historical invader like the Seljuk do a pretty goo job without any special trait (he does get some modifiers and a shit ton of spawned troops though). He usually conquer the entire empire of Persia at a minimum which is comparable to Gengis conquest.

I have not see how the AI Gengis perform tough. I will run a test.




I did have a few unexpected and fortunate crashes when I didn't succeed at my university visits, or when most of my family got diseased and died due to a random pandemic

All seljuk needs to do is conquer iran, whereas genghis has to conquer the steppe and iran

 

[dasvira]

All seljuk needs to do is conquer iran, whereas genghis has to conquer the steppe and iran

Gengis Khan never conquered Iran. His successors did. This is his empire at the time of his death:

The problem with the current system is that it tries t replicate all the mongol conquests by one character or two, when it should be portrayed as a multi-generational struggle.

 

[Benismann]

Nomads in general are just broken OP.

 

[Benismann]

Maybe the siege progress should be removed from light cavalry and archer cavalry so that heavily fortified places can withstand the Mongols more easily?

the problem is - AI will never get anything done then. I tried removing siege progress from SoG in my mod some time ago (coz it and movespeed are basically the only buffs of SoG i have any probem with), it made feel SoG basically the same as regular conquerors coz they just get bogged down by forts really, really hard.