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Belgian/Dutch Super Railroads

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Dimensional Traveler

Dimensional Traveler

Tri-Galactic Commander
Dec 27, 2002
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I suspect this is already being discussed elsewhere, but has anyone else noticed that Belgium and Holland seem to be somehow building level 5 railroads in all their provinces in the GC by 1850-1860? This strikes me as so wrong because it implies they somehow raced thru most of the tech tree in ten years and then somehow came up with the massive amount of money and resources required to be continously building them in all their provinces simultaneously, immediately starting the next level as soon as the current construction finishes. WTF? :eek: :confused: :eek:
 
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My first Grand Campaign (after installing the 1.01 patch anyway) was as Belgium.

Belgium has some real advantages when it comes to building railroads - lots of iron and coal deposits, and a fairly small and compact territory. It's heavily industrialized from the beginning. Besides, unless the Belgians get into Africa early they're usually shut out of the colonialrace - so there's not a lot else for them to spend money and raw materials on . . .

I don't know if I was as quick as you describe, but yes, I was webbed with high-quality railroads pretty early.
 
Hmm, I'm currently playing Belgium and by 1849 I've managed to get, but not yet build, level 4 railroads, and my strategy has from the beginning been to get the best possible railroads as fast as possible...

So unless the AI has been given a few techs for free, it's extremely optimized to research railroads. Are you playing with 1.01?
 
would should this be a bug. Belgium was one of the spearheads of the railroad boom. They have the resources needed and when you choose the right research body (industrialist-economy) you'll have pretty soon high level railroads.

when this occurs the AI has played off balance and can perhaps be seen a "bad balancing of the AI". But a real bug? no,
 
Yes, I am using v1.01.

I don't know if its a bug or not either. It just seems off to see the Low Countries with level 5 railroads in every province (including all their colonies, which is how I realized it. I looked at Indonesia and went :eek: when I saw "Integral Rail System".) while the Great Powers around them (UK, France, Prussia) are only just starting to build level 2 or 3 railroads. (I am discounting my own rail net. I've realized that I've been slow getting industry and infrastructure up. Still learning.)

OK, their AIs are slanted heavily towards railroad research. That's not a problem. But how are they getting there so fast? I haven't seen a tech dependency diagram yet (does anyone have one?) but the research interdependencies would require them to either start with or research 30 to 45 techs in twenty years. Even that would require sacrificing all Military and Cultural research. (A French general sneezing should be sufficient to conquer them. :D )

I don't buy the resource argument though. I really can't see them producing that much steel, cement and lumber that fast. Which means they are buying them on the WM. That along with the construction $ (sorry, don't have a pound symbol on my keyboard :) ) should be bankrupting them.

Maybe I'm wrong. Are others seeing these kinds of railway networks that fast? A show of hands please?
 
getting Belgium bankrupt is a hard task you know ! Why do you think that little country was 2nd or 3rd world industrial power behind britain at some times ? But I agree with you about the Netherlands, which were far from being as industrialised and railroad-ed as belgium. Belgium has enormous incomes from the inside and, in some games, with full social reforms and control of all of Africa north of the Sahara ( the sahara included ) and arabian peninsula, I got as much as 8000 £ daily ! With so much, you have no trouble paying debts and develloping !
 
It isn't a bug or the AI cheating--I played Belgium in my first game and was WAY ahead of the other powers in rail tech... I had level 4 or 5 by the middle/late 1800s as well as a player and have noticed the behavior when the AI is playing it as well.
 
I think that this may be a bug. My first GC was as Belgium, and I invaded the Netherlands and annexed everything but Amsterdam. I'm not sure what date it was (maybe 1845-1850?) but I noticed that Amsterdam had a "railroad network" and Groningen had a Steel Railroad. As I recall I'd just gotten basic railroads so I thought it was quite strange.
 
The best way to see if this is a bug or not is to look in the savegame files where the quick Belgian/Dutch rail construction has been noticed (or load the scenario as either of those two countries) & see if they have techs 5304 (Steel Railroad) or 5305 (Integral Rail System). If they don't, then the AI is building railways that it is not capable of & is definitly a bug (which is why I moved it here). If they do, then perhaps it isn't a bug, & my mistake.
 
I've seen Belgium with level 5 railroads in the 1850s or so... (v1.01).
 
Need a save game with impossible railroads to confirm.
 
I have one. It was sent in earlier about a display error on a shut down factory, but I'll send it again with a new subject. I started the game as the USA and it won't let me reload as Belgium, but reloading as the Netherlands, they have level 5 railroads in all provinces in 1859 without having researched any railroad techs at all.

(Belgium appears to be level 3 railroads at this time, so I was partly wrong. I didn't see them at level 5 until later in the game anyways. Diplomacy tech trade screen shows they have the tech and I won't argue with others who say that Belgium has the money to do the building when it has the tech.)
 
Belgium should build railroads very quickly, it is historical. They had the most reason because until then all of their inland trade routs where subject to a Rhine toll from the Dutch. On the other hand the Netherlands was one of the last Western nations to build railroads because they all ready had a complex trade system using the rivers. So maybe the Netherlands AI should focus on trade tech while the Belgian AI focuses on industrial tech.
 
Well, as an American I am ignorant of the history of that place on the other side of the Atlantic. What's it called, Europa? :p

More seriously, I don't feel qualified to discuss what Belgium and the Netherlands should concentrate their R&D on. If Belgium historically was inclined to it and it has the ability within the game rules and mechanics to be a leader in railroad tech, then that's fine. However, at this point a definite bug has been found in that the Netherlands has level 5 railroads in all of its provinces without even having level 1 railroad tech.
 
Originally posted by dtravel
I have one. It was sent in earlier about a display error on a shut down factory, but I'll send it again with a new subject. I started the game as the USA and it won't let me reload as Belgium, but reloading as the Netherlands, they have level 5 railroads in all provinces in 1859 without having researched any railroad techs at all.

(Belgium appears to be level 3 railroads at this time, so I was partly wrong. I didn't see them at level 5 until later in the game anyways. Diplomacy tech trade screen shows they have the tech and I won't argue with others who say that Belgium has the money to do the building when it has the tech.)
Click to expand...

I have this. This proves that its NOT A BUG WaD. The railroad techs are not listed for anyone in the inventions / applications list. Instead there is a railroad_level = x line in the files just after the ledger = section for each nation. Netherlands has level 5, USA has level 1 (you really ought to research more :D ).
 
I'm not familar enough with the layout of the save game files to know what to look for.

Maybe I need to rephrase. I just checked and Holland starts the GC with no railroads built at all. How is it that an AI Holland goes from no railroads in 1836 to level 5 railroads built in 1859 without having researched the tech?
 
Originally posted by Derek Pullem
I have this. This proves that its NOT A BUG WaD. The railroad techs are not listed for anyone in the inventions / applications list. Instead there is a railroad_level = x line in the files just after the ledger = section for each nation. Netherlands has level 5, USA has level 1 (you really ought to research more :D ).
Click to expand...

Derek - In that savegame file, do the Dutch have tech 5305, which is what is supposed to allow for level 5 railways? It might be the case that the Dutch are able to build level 5 railways (via the railroad_level variable), but don't have the tech that ought to give it.
 
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