Betrayal of Ideas vs Blake Documents

[Justme2]

I am starting this thread to discuss the differences between B of I and the Wolverine section of BD. Here is what I wrote in a reply on the Dev Thread where I asked for a Clan Wolverine Avatar.

I just finished reading Betrayal of Ideas. I have been comparing B of I with the Blake Documents for all of the slight (maybe huge) differences. Also, can anyone tell me which book had the references to the Wolf Clan's Wolverine After Annihilation Audit? It is mentioned in the Blake Documents and it seems highly unlikely that the author of the Blake Documents should have knowledge of the Clan Wolf's Audit. There are many other oddities when it comes to the Wolverine's section in the Blake Documents. The strange thing that occurs in B of I is that the Ilkhan stops the Annihilation Trial while it should have been noted that the Zughoffer Weir escaped. At least according to other books, the Zughoffer Weir made it all the way to the inner sphere. It does not make sense that Ilkhan stopped the trial knowing that at least one ship escaped. I guess even NK got tired of the war and deceit and decided to forget a very major inconsistency.

I have more but want to think more before posting.

Thanks,

 

[Tnarien]

Keep in mind, Blake Documents falls under the "canon rumor" category. It is, by definition, unreliable (if not entirely false) information.

 

[Mendrugo]

According to Betrayal of Ideals:
- Wolverines organized for exodus, partially extracted before being nuked. Horribly burned/irradiated Khan Sarah McEvedy captured.
- Wolverines disappeared. Grand Council Fleet pursued down Exodus Road, but Wolverines tricked them by waiting, then trailing the fleet hunting them.
- Wolverines stopped for supplies and R&R on Barbados, sent out three picket fleets.
- Grand Council Fleet gave up pursuit and returned up the Exodus road, bypassing the pickets and stumbling on the Wolverine Fleet by accident.
- Most Wolverine ships and personnel destroyed. McEvedy abandoned on Barbados amid corpses of her Clan.
- Zughoffer Weir and two transports jumped out, with Steel Vipers in pursuit. (Zughoffer Weir later seen in Blakist Fleet)
- Two of three picket fleets return to Barbados and look for survivors. Late arriving sibcadets join them. This group forms Minnesota Tribe.
- Post-Jihad, someone keeps going back to Barbados to lay fresh flowers on the the Wolverine graves.

According to Blake Documents
- Wolverine fleet engaged in running battles across the Kerensky Cluster, breaking contact with the Clan fleets in the Deep Periphery.
- Scouts found a Spanish-speaking colony, and went back for a closer look. They never returned, and the Wolverines moved on without them. (Nueva Castille is 1000 light years from the Exodus Road.)
- Wolverine Fleet met ComStar explorer ships and got sanctuary on Mars.

My theory:
- Zughoffer Weir and its transports did shake the Vipers and meet up with ComStar
- Zughoffer survivors formed a hidden society in ComStar - the Cabal - explains the prescient “dreams” of Clan totem animals that prompted the creation of the Explorer Corps
- Minnesota Tribe circled around the Inner Sphere, picking up extra people and supplies along the way, ultimately settling at a world near McEvedy’s Folly, beyond the Magistracy of Canopus.
- They traded tech to the Magistracy in exchange for resources. (This was actually depicted in a BattleCorps Iron Writer story)
- At some point, they abandoned their base and traded tech for sanctuary in the Magistracy. (Archaeologists find the base abandoned, but without signs of battle damage, then get smoked by attackers using Manei Domini Spectral-class equipment)
- There may have been a shadow war between the Cabal and the Tribe, explaining why the Manei Domini had such an 8nterest in the Magistracy during the Jihad, and why the Ebon Magistrate had its own cyborgs to fight them. (Fun fact - the last head of the Wolverine Watch was Trish Ebon)

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I really enjoy your theorycrafting. :bow:

I have recently read Betrayal of Ideals and was left with the strong desire for another novelist to pick up the exact same portion of the BattleTech Timeline, but to tell the story from the other NK's point of view... complete with inconsistencies, and even outright contesting facts.

Just as any true Histories hold.

As the truth would be left up to the readers to determine, no doubt somewhere on the middle ground between each account. : )

 

[WhiteChapel]

I have to admit, I am not a fan of "history as rumor" approach that later Battletech went with. One of the things that I really appreciated about FASA was the concise and largely cohesive millennial history they created. The history is subjective approach was used by White Wolf in their World of Darkness and led to such gems as Rasputin being a demon, a werewolf, a risen dead, two different kinds of mage and 3 different kinds of Vampire.

I don't mind the cannon rumor tool for active plot lines, but once it passes into history it should get pinned down.

 

[Mendrugo]

Fiction published by FASA, WizKids, and InMediaRes (through Catalyst, FanPro, or BattleCorps) is canon (unless directly contradicted by more recent canon fiction)

Sourcebooks are in-universe reports that may be biased or based on incomplete records, and may be later revealed to be inaccurate. Some reports included are less reliable than others, and are given as examples of wild rumors and conspiracy theories that people are discussing in-universe. Some may have grains of truth, but are not considered canon unless referenced in canon fiction.

Fiction and storylines published by other licensees (Infocom, Microsoft, Activision, Blackthorne, Malibu, Pacific Rim Publishing, etc.) is considered apocryphal. At best, something along the lines of the story may have happened in the BattleTech universe, but the details may not conform to what actually happened, and these sources are always superseded by contradictory references in canon sources.

Given this hierarchy, Betrayal of Ideals is the true story of the Wolverine Exodus, and the Blake Documents is revealed as a mostly fraudulent tale that contains a few grains of truth (re: Zughoffer Wolverines finding sanctuary with ComStar).

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I have to admit, I am not a fan of "history as rumor" approach that later Battletech went with. One of the things that I really appreciated about FASA was the concise and largely cohesive millennial history they created. The history is subjective approach was used by White Wolf in their World of Darkness and led to such gems as Rasputin being a demon, a werewolf, a risen dead, two different kinds of mage and 3 different kinds of Vampire.

I don't mind the cannon rumor tool for active plot lines, but once it passes into history it should get pinned down.

While affording authors the latitude to contribute to the franchise and providing waypoints to guide that contribution are important, imo there does need to be a sure hand at the tiller to chart a course structured enough to reveal a compelling and coherent historical narrative...

...yeah, I'm rambling. It is late. Sorry about that. :bow:

 

[TaurianMerc]

I have to admit, I am not a fan of "history as rumor" approach that later Battletech went with.
I don't mind the cannon rumor tool for active plot lines, but once it passes into history it should get pinned down.

Easy to spot someone who isn't a historian
Take it from someone who deals with historical documents as part of their day job, history IS rumour, lies, propaganda and wishful thinking. The best we can do is report on all sides, give the best information we currently have for context and leave it to the individual to make their own minds up.
The more recent work actually feels more real to me than "we know every detail of every incident in the past". If everything were so meticulously recorded why did the Galaxy suffer a loss of technology after the exodus?

 

[Justme2]

Thanks to all who have replied to this thread; especially Mendrugo. I did not know about the possible connect to the Magistracy, the Ebon Magistrate and Clan Wolverine. I would theorize that the Zughoffer Weir met up with the third scouting fleet also. These might be the "refugees" that supposedly came from Clan space. Otherwise the tale is a complete fabrication, especially, if based on Star Captain Francis and the Yukon. Mendrugo said: "McEvedy abandoned on Barbados amid corpses of her Clan.". I didn't think about that but the book definitely allows for this assumption. Further, the book leads to the assumption that Khan McEvedy could have been the hobbled woman that Khan Ebon hugs.

Think about this; Khan Ebon had made sure that no one from her landing parties were close by when she visited the graves. This woman magically appears out of nowhere and says things that would be in character with Khan McEvedy. Remember that this woman was badly scarred and in agony from her wounds. The woman could have lived in a cave since there is no mention of a tent or other structure. Living in a cave can also be one of the better places to stay while healing. Caves have naturally buffered temperatures that stay around 50 - 60 degrees F. If Nicholas left her food and water for at least two months; then it would be possible for her to survive until Khan Ebon arrives. I would also point out that how Nicholas ends this incident shows that he wants to cover everything up and just forget it ever happened. The Zughoffer Weir was known to have escaped but was not hunted down. The Clans quickly left Barbados and made sure to never return. All this point to the fact that the surviving woman could be Khan McEvedy.

In reply to TaurianMerc's question: "why did the Galaxy suffer a loss of technology after the exodus?". My thoughts have always been that critical pieces of manufacturing have been destroyed along with important knowledge. Until these critical pieces were rebuilt, certain technology could not be recreated. I assume that the Helm memory core gave essential process information that was need to avoid trial and error methods. This would allow the critical equipment to be manufactured correctly with limited experimentation and far less experimental waste. This is the only explanation that I can conceive that would allow for the miraculous speed in which higher technology returned to the successor states.

 

[TaurianMerc]

It was a bit of a rhetorical question
It was more in response to the idea that all the in universe history should be meticulously recorded with nothing getting lost and no reason to rely on rumour. If that were the case there would be no lostech

 

[Mendrugo]

The third picket fleet seems to have settled somewhere in the vicinity of Barbados, and it is likely their descendants who return and lay flowers. (It’s a bit of a haul from Mars or the Magistracy). The theory that the third picket fleet became the Umayyads is still remotely posssible, but unlikely, given the distance involved, the Umayyad lack of WarShips, and the fact of the fresh flowers on Barbados, implying a much closer settlement. (So, three groups of Wolverine descendants - Tribe, Cabal, and Flower Children )

I agree that the burned woman Nicholas abandons on Barbados is Sarah, and she gets picked up by Trish’s group when it returns. She may have lived long enough to see the Tribe set up in its new base near McEvedy’s Folly (which is apparently named for a relative of hers).

 

[Mendrugo]

As far as the loss of tech goes, the early fiction (Warrior: En Garde) implies that most worlds (Tharkad and Pacifica, at least) had a central planetary mainframe, with computers all over the world being just dumb access terminals without local memory. (Future of the 80s...) If raiders or saboteurs take out the mainframe, it would cripple the planetary economy and destroy all electronic records. My guess is that ComStar’s Operation HOLY SHROUD introduced viruses into many worlds’ central mainframes, wiping out records and technical data on worlds nowhere near the front lines.

 

[Ian Wagner]

I am starting this thread to discuss the differences between B of I and the Wolverine section of BD. Here is what I wrote in a reply on the Dev Thread where I asked for a Clan Wolverine Avatar.

I just finished reading Betrayal of Ideas. I have been comparing B of I with the Blake Documents for all of the slight (maybe huge) differences. Also, can anyone tell me which book had the references to the Wolf Clan's Wolverine After Annihilation Audit? It is mentioned in the Blake Documents and it seems highly unlikely that the author of the Blake Documents should have knowledge of the Clan Wolf's Audit. There are many other oddities when it comes to the Wolverine's section in the Blake Documents. The strange thing that occurs in B of I is that the Ilkhan stops the Annihilation Trial while it should have been noted that the Zughoffer Weir escaped. At least according to other books, the Zughoffer Weir made it all the way to the inner sphere. It does not make sense that Ilkhan stopped the trial knowing that at least one ship escaped. I guess even NK got tired of the war and deceit and decided to forget a very major inconsistency.

I have more but want to think more before posting.

Thanks,

I had a chance to ask Mr Pardoe at GenCon this(last) year in general this question, given there is no mention in the 'Cabal' history in Blake Documents of the slaughter at Barbados. His response was he hadn't read the Blake Documents.

 

[Mendrugo]

The backstory to the Blake Documents “Wolverine Journal” is that it was ginned up by someone...possibly Uncle Chandy (Chandrasekhar Kurita)...in an attempt to motivate the Clans to launch a Trial of Annihilation against the Blakists (and to incentivize the occupation of Nueva Castille - where the Blakists were developing and testing the Erinyes planet-killer). Whoever put it together had some legit inside info on the Zughoffer Weir, but made up the bits from before the ComStar rendezvous.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I have never lifted and shifted from my hope that HBS develops a CLAN INVASION expansion to BATTLETECH after a Fourth Succession War expansion...

...that being said, a Clan Wolverine expansion that picks up pretty much right where Bretrayal of Ideals does (the last shots of the Pentagon Civil War) and follows Clan Wolverines through the Annihilation and beyond, would be a rather stellar idea.

 

[WhiteChapel]

It was a bit of a rhetorical question
It was more in response to the idea that all the in universe history should be meticulously recorded with nothing getting lost and no reason to rely on rumour. If that were the case there would be no lostech

There's a pretty big jump between maintaining written records and maintaining advanced industrial infrastructure. For the most part, when your dealing with recorded history its pretty easy to backtrack. General information is surprisingly resilient. Specific technical knowledge is less so. A very basic example of this would be something like Greek Fire. Even once the formula was "lost", any serious researcher would still know its basic properties, its rough ingredients, and how it would perform. To keep it in Battletech, I prefer the Classic era's common knowledge approach. Example would be the Minnesota Tribe. That there was an unknown unit that attacked Combine space using Star League equipment and Star League tactics is recorded fact., at least within the House Kurita Sourcebook. The planets attacked, the units engaged, the aggressor mechs and the identifiers on those units are recorded and "proven". The Star League Sourcebook gave us the Exodus roster, and lists unit nicknames including the 82nd Jump Infantry "All Americans" and the 331st Royal Battlemech "North America Division." Those books were published in 1988/89. 1991 gave us the Clan Wolf book that established the Wolverines were destroyed about the same time as the Tribe appeared 2824 and 2825. 10 years later that we got "confirmation" that the 331st was Wolverine, or at least that the Wolverines were riding 331st mechs from a Brian cache.

That's good world building. We saw similar bread crumbs with the Dragoons/Snords and the Tripitz/White Wings. Or even Nicholas Kerensky's wife. Fact: Nicholas married a clan mechwarrior named Jennifer Winston, who would be help guide the Clans. Rumor, no one can confirm Jennifer's actual ID, and her name is an is an alias. Crazy conspiracy theory, she's actually the last Cameron. Compare that to the new stuff

 

[Mendrugo]

They pretty much confirmed Jennifer Winston’s identity as Jessica Cameron in the Liberation of Terra, Interstellar Players, and Fall From Glory books.

Multiple sources indicate Richard Cameron had an incestuous relationship with his sisters. One source names “Jessica” as “the child that could not be kept” (presumably due to the incest) and says she was given into the care of a woman named Cole. During the fighting on Terra at the end of the Star League civil war, sourcebook fiction introduces us to “Jess Cole,” a woman of the right age who has been running ops with the Moscow underground alongside her best friend, Nicholas Kerensky. Nicholas was known to have been extracted from Moscow by SLDF General Winston, who later claimed to be “Jennifer Winston’s” relative. In Fall From Glory, “Jes Cole” is Nicholas’ right hand main operative in setting up and then betraying the Prinz Eugen mutiny, using his brother Andery as a pawn. Andery loses track of her after the mutiny, but recognizes her at the start of the Pentagon Civil War, now going by “Jennifer Winston”.

So, yeah, she is a Cameron, but from the wrong side of the sheets.

(In an alternate timeline where the Exodus never happened, she marries Andery instead of Nicholas...but it seems plausible that she was the assassin who killed Aleksandr Kerensky before he could announce the Exodus plan, on Nicholas’ orders.)

Jessica Cameron -> Jess Cole -> Jes Cole -> Jennifer Winston -> Mrs. Nicholas Kerensky

 

[Tnarien]

The backstory to the Blake Documents “Wolverine Journal” is that it was ginned up by someone...possibly Uncle Chandy (Chandrasekhar Kurita)...in an attempt to motivate the Clans to launch a Trial of Annihilation against the Blakists (and to incentivize the occupation of Nueva Castille - where the Blakists were developing and testing the Erinyes planet-killer). Whoever put it together had some legit inside info on the Zughoffer Weir, but made up the bits from before the ComStar rendezvous.

Pretty much all of the "Jihad Secrets" series, including the Blake Documents, fall into this category in one degree or another. Trying to manipulate (and mostly outright fabricating) historical items to shift geopolitics.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Whenever I see mention of near-surface or deep-seeded BATTLETECH Easter Eggs... I can't help but hope we get a glimpse or more of the descendants or remnants of Clan Wolverine. : )

 

[Dexion]

Betrayal of ideals is the first Clan book I actually liked. I have read a bunch of them, but I can rarely find a character that doesn't make me hate the clans more. I would love to find some easter egg about Clan Wolverine.

Honestly, I'd love for HBS to do a game based around one of the picket ships and the retreat back to the IS