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Boehm's Solution to the Colonization problem

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Mowers

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"although I would like to see TPs made much more profitable in the beginning of the game....its my impression that colonization in the form of real settling didnt really begin in earnest until after 1600....thus IMO TPs should have MUCH GREATER base chance of success than colonies....whereas as infrastructure improves it should even more out....and to give a benefit to TPs for nations which doesnt have a CoT make them gain half their tradevalue in direct income."

Thats what Boehm orginally posted in another thread. But I think its a very good idea to the problem of colonization.

The problem is that colonization is too easy early in the game. How many colonies were there really? There were alot of outposts but colonies? The Portugese and Dutch conquered alot as did the Spanish but how many colonies were there before 1600?

Manufactories go up in price after 1700 considerably. Couldnt we have a change in the cost of colonies so that before 1570? they are more expensive or have a greater chance of failure?

This would be a fairly easy change in the game mechanics (i think) but a very big change in colonization.
 
Maybe connect it the infrastructure tech.
 
Very interesting idea.
And the "connect it the infrastructure tech" maybe should be a feature already implemented in the game...

But, we can't forget that colonies are also important as bases to the exploration (how to explore India with no colonies on the way?)
 
Originally posted by Aranha
Very interesting idea.
And the "connect it the infrastructure tech" maybe should be a feature already implemented in the game...

But, we can't forget that colonies are also important as bases to the exploration (how to explore India with no colonies on the way?)
Click to expand...

I like the connection to infrastructure idea. Very nice.

With regards for bases for exploration. You only need Level1 to get a harbour. Even with a raised cost or lower % success rate for colonies you could still get the chain of ports, it would just be harder to develop the colony further.

Portugese and later European expansion was primarily based on taking harbours from existing states. The problem we have is that both Muscat and Malacca are both capitals as well as key elements of the Portugese trade network. This makes the historical path almost impossible to follow as EU doesnt allow you to take capitals when other elements of the state exist.
 
Two nice ideas to test out..

Damn you guys.. I get new ideas all the time to balance stuff from here.. :)
 
I think that the proposal to connect it to infrastructure sounds good.

Mowers also brings up a good point - one that have annoyed me for a while:

The problem we have is that both Muscat and Malacca are both capitals as well as key elements of the Portugese trade network. This makes the historical path almost impossible to follow as EU doesnt allow you to take capitals when other elements of the state exist.
Click to expand...

Couldn't it be made possible, to allow countries to demand other countries' capitals in peace agreements, but still make it impossible to demand ALL provinces (and thereby annexing a country with more than one prov)?

I think it could be done, but it should be hard to get countries to accept it. Maybe by making it count for like 60% to demand in peace deal or something around that area?

Offcourse, a small problem comes up: how to decide were their new capital should be located? Well, either let the AI/player choose from the other provinces the country gets to keep (or maybe just the national ones?) - or if that's to hard to code, just make it the nearest oone.

What do you think?
 
Originally posted by Hive

Offcourse, a small problem comes up: how to decide were their new capital should be located? Well, either let the AI/player choose from the other provinces the country gets to keep (or maybe just the national ones?) - or if that's to hard to code, just make it the nearest oone.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Seeing the carabean has capital of European nations (like I've seen in other games) makes me think it is really difficult to let the AI choose the capital...
 
Originally posted by Hive
SNIP RE:capital problems SNIP

I think it could be done, but it should be hard to get countries to accept it. Maybe by making it count for like 60% to demand in peace deal or something around that area?

Offcourse, a small problem comes up: how to decide were their new capital should be located? Well, either let the AI/player choose from the other provinces the country gets to keep (or maybe just the national ones?) - or if that's to hard to code, just make it the nearest oone.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

I think that sounds like it could be too much coding. Is there any simplier solution?

Oman is really wrong anyway, I know its too late to change ( I also know that every country is 'wrong'). I really should have done some work on Oman for EU when I lived there. Its so difficult to get the materials here.

The Portugese fortresses are very nice though having been done up. Worth a visit if you can arrange acess.
 
Originally posted by Mowers
I think that sounds like it could be too much coding. Is there any simplier solution?

Oman is really wrong anyway, I know its too late to change ( I also know that every country is 'wrong'). I really should have done some work on Oman for EU when I lived there. Its so difficult to get the materials here.

The Portugese fortresses are very nice though having been done up. Worth a visit if you can arrange acess.
Click to expand...

A lot of coding, yes. But I'm sure that the perfectionistic Johan wouldn't mind...;) :D

After all, they did recode the peace system for 1.06 - so they oughta be in the habit now.:p
 
Originally posted by Mowers
I like the connection to infrastructure idea. Very nice.

With regards for bases for exploration. You only need Level1 to get a harbour. Even with a raised cost or lower % success rate for colonies you could still get the chain of ports, it would just be harder to develop the colony further.
Click to expand...

What if you get a harbour with a level 7 trading post? This way, an increased difficulty to establish colonies can be implemented without compromising further exploration. I also think that level 7 TP towards Level 1 Colony is a natural chain.
 
That sounds like a hell of a good idea.

But connecting it with trading post lvl 6 would be sufficient probably.
 
hmm although I proposed linking "colonization closer to infrastructure tech" I actually think this is a bad idea now that I had some time to think about it......since because there is no "avarage historical date" linked to the research of the infrastructure & trade techs it is fairly easy for a human player to speed ahead several techs infront of the AI in these techs....thus making the game even more skeved in favor of a human colonizer.....So I propose that either the colonization "difficulty" is either linked directly to a year-modifier or if linked to infrastructure, then that this is in turn linked to an "avarage year of discovery"-modifier like land and naval tech is!.....or perhaps link it to an avarage of "all the techs"....(with appropriate weighting of he trade & infrastructure techs to make them comparable to the land & naval techs) so as to make it impossible to try to speed ahead in the "colonization" tech....

Now ofcause if u want the DP-sliders to influence this?!? then I assume u should link it to production and/or trade efficiency instead...but then again the issues regarding "speeding" unhistorically ahead popsup...perhaps this could be somewhat redeemed by linking it to the avarage trade- and production efficiency...+ a bonus depending on which "period" of land and naval you are in?!? - Ofcause one of effect of this would be to making it a lot harder to colonize large parts of the globe with eg. backward pagan nations...which IMO wouldnt be entirely bad! :rolleyes: (or in other words favor the high tech nations vs the low tech nations - and if using tradeefficiency also very much favor the reformed nations)
 
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Problem is this will really mess up Spanish colonization of Cuba in particular. You can't claim that was through conquest, it was real colonization in the early 16th century.
 
well early colonization should not be impossible...just more difficult so that its not soo attractive to build a large number of early low value colonies....besides Spain has a load of conquistadors which should make colonization easier! ;)
 
About the not being able to take ports from Oman and all, you could always just demand military access, and still get the ports necessary. And as was said, all that's needed for a base is a level one colony where there aren't harbors to take control of.
 
I have now reworked it and put the new version into the latest beta patch. Download it and test it out...

Colonising before the mid 16th century is harsh now, until you've get enough colonies going.

1) There's a minor penalty depending on the production efficiency, and then a minor bonus when it goes over a certain limit. (>30%) (Range on modification is -3 to +7%)

2) For the first two hundred years there is a penalty which is decreased by 1 each eight years. Its at 25 in 1419. (This is not valid if the province already have a colony OR a tradingpost. Its only for the first establishment in the province.)

3) For provinces which is not adjacent to the same landarea as your capital, you are now limited by your monarchs ADM value.
The game counts every colony not yet a colonial city into a value,. and then substract the ADM value of the monarch. Each colony above the ADM gives a 5% penalty to colonial success.

4) During the first twenty attempts at placing a colonist you have a penalty which decreases by 1 each time. (It starts at 20 and goes down to 0.)

5) A small bonuses have been added for placing colonies adjacent to owned provinces. (+5%)


Trading posts are not affected as much as they are so easily destroyed in a war, but the following 2 effects have been added.

1) For the first eighty years there is a penalty which is decreased by 1 each eight years. Its at 10 in 1419. (This is not valid if the province already have a tradingpost. Its only for the first establishment in the province.)

2) There is a penalty on 5% if you have more tradingposts than cities in your nation.
 
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