BORG sighting? Will units that cannot see be able to see if another unit can see?

[Destraex]

Much harder to do in ww2 than modern warfare where everybody had radios.
How does the line of sight and target system work? Do we need an artillery spotter? Can my tank see a tiger on the other side of the map when it comes on at the rear?

 

[Guggy]

Reporting of contacts will most likely be instantaneous, sadly.

 

[Graphic]

In the abstract I like the idea of modeling realistic communication but in practice I don't see how it can be implemented without being a frustrating mess.

 

[Darkmil]

Imagine. everytime a german AT gun fires whatever it is mounted on, you see "IT'S A TIGER" pop on the map.

 

[Karlburg]

It's pretty much an unfixable problem in the context of a strategy game that pretends to give you an overview and allows you to interact with it.

Realistic military operations are boring as hell.

 

[Killertomato]

As long as you sit, god-like, above the battlefield, any step would be a bit pointless. You can see the enemy shooting, so any implementation of a realistic system that doesn't allow your units to see them would be hair-tearingly infuriating.

 

[MarcoRossolini]

Imagine. everytime a german AT gun fires whatever it is mounted on, you see "IT'S A TIGER" pop on the map.

That could be quite hilarious if every german tank is identified as a Tiger when it's spotted.

 

[Destraex]

its dealt with in combat mission

 

[Thonar]

Signal troops and capabilitied should be rather easy to implement since it is in the gamescope mostly VHF which simply needs a bit changed Line-of-Sight mechanic and a GUI-mechanic to show who can reaxh whom.

 

[Guggy]

its dealt with in combat mission

Yes, with constant cpu queries to see who can engage what. That in a large scale would send performance down the shitter.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

I've dealt with comm issues in the Marines (lol, and I was comm) and I have no desire to revisit those days.

My group was originally founded as an ArmA group and we've used lots of mods like ACRE and TFAR that have set ranges and can have terrain interference. It sounds good as you're trying to add some difficulty to a mission, then when you spend 5 minutes trying to get the radio to work you say 'f*** it' and type in chat.

There are parts of war and the military that simply do not translate to great gameplay.

That said, I await the ArmA mod that le'ts you clean weapons for 6 hours. I'm sure some autist groups would love that.

 

[neverlay]

That could be quite hilarious if every german tank is identified as a Tiger when it's spotted.

Unless you have experienced troops, they should be. Considering how many people said that a Panther/Tiger attacked them in comparison with numbers at the front, it would make sense.

I once saw a tabletop participation game where all the the German units placed on table were Tiger, SS and 88's until confirmed otherwise, which made for an interesting, if hesitant allied play style.

 

[Destraex]

I've dealt with comm issues in the Marines (lol, and I was comm) and I have no desire to revisit those days.

My group was originally founded as an ArmA group and we've used lots of mods like ACRE and TFAR that have set ranges and can have terrain interference. It sounds good as you're trying to add some difficulty to a mission, then when you spend 5 minutes trying to get the radio to work you say 'f*** it' and type in chat.

There are parts of war and the military that simply do not translate to great gameplay.

That said, I await the ArmA mod that le'ts you clean weapons for 6 hours. I'm sure some autist groups would love that.

Works fine in combat mission... just needs better feedback for a game like this... because less autistic people play it. People that just want things to blow up while pretending to be an all powerful patton general. Because cool and millenials want it NOWWWW!

 

[MemeMarine]

Communications could probably be abstracted instead. Perhaps units close by to signal corps could have improved optics, and aim time.

 

[Karelian]

Works fine in combat mission... just needs better feedback for a game like this... because less autistic people play it. People that just want things to blow up while pretending to be an all powerful patton general. Because cool and millenials want it NOWWWW!

Even in CM the player is still omniscient and able to instantly react to all contacts, ordering direct fire against "known" targets by units that would in RL have no way to spot them and react so quickly.

Were talking about a game, not a simulation. The previous games made by Eugen already model recon to some degree. Improving that system is a better and more constructive approach than asking for entirely new features that would not prevent unrealistic gameplay in any case.

 

[Destraex]

Karelian that simply is not true. In combat mission it depends on your realism settings.
With the c2 network below, this depends a lot on if you have kept platoons and up in contact properly.
Because squads don't carry radios but the CO of the platoon does... so the squad visually or by shouting passes on information to the squad command section who has a radio and passes it on to other platoons etc. This all takes time in game and if squads are out of contact may not happen at all. Often a whole game is fought with a unit not knowing what it is firing at other than that they are enemy.


From the manual:
"
Spotting and Contacts
Once your scouts are in position, you will start to see some enemy (grey-colored)
floating icons appear. The act of your units seeing enemy units is known as
spotting.
Spotting is a rather complicated affair in Combat Mission, but basically consists
of seeing confirmed enemy units, which are signified by a floating icon that
can be selected, and contacts, which appear as floating icons with question
marks. A confirmed enemy unit is straightforward: at least one of your units
can see it, and confirm its basic type, such as a soldier, an anti-tank gun, or
a vehicle. Your units will automatically fire upon these units as they see fit.
Contacts, on the other hand, are merely possible enemy units: your units think
there might be something there. Your units will not automatically fire at
contacts. The opacity of a contact will tell you how confident your troops are
that something is there: a very translucent contact is less certain than one
that is fully opaque. Contacts can be upgraded to confirmed units over time,
by moving closer to the contact, or if the enemy moves or fires at your units.
Units that move or fire are much easier to spot. Contacts can also be the last
known location of confirmed units.
Unlike the "Borg" spotting seen in most games, where once spotted a unit is
automatically seen by every enemy, units do not automatically share their
spotting with all friendly units: this is known as relative spotting. For
example, if one of your units spots an enemy anti-tank gun, a nearby unit
might not see the same anti-tank gun at all! The unit will have to spot the
anti-tank gun on its own, or have the information passed to it through the
C2 network. You can tell which of your units can spot an enemy unit by
clicking on the enemy unit icon. Your units that have currently spotted and
confirmed it will have highlighted icons.
You may have noticed that right at the start of the scenario some contacts were
visible: this is known as pre-battle intelligence, and tells you the location of
some enemy units at the beginning of the scenario. You, or your opponent,
may receive this bonus. Whether a side receives pre-battle intelligence and
how much will vary based on the scenario."


See how this guy is out of contact with his parent and sister units in the platoon (the red x) and can only see and shout to communicate. So he is now on his own for spotting.

 

[Karelian]

I know, I've played with all versions of their engine. It seems I failed to articulate my point.

This is what I meant:
1. Pixeltruppen scout patrol is slowly moving towards a small hill. The patrol gets a sound contact from the threeline ahead. They are out of radio contact, so they're the only unit that has made the contact as far as the engine is concerned.

2. The player gives a fire position command to the patch of trees where he knows the contact is, and an M18 that has been stationed further away takes some time to do so due the command delay, but soon dutifully follows orders and fires.

In CMx1 games like CMBB this would happen automatically and with less delay.
My point was that in the current versions the player is still effectively able to enact similar "gamey" tactics.

So yes, CM has a good system for spotting and I like it. It's still a game.

 

[gronank]

The close combat model is probably the best: units that are shooting at targets they can't see for themselves or are manually targeted gets the "area firing" modifier and inflicts damage at reduced efficiency and are more reliable for supression than anything else.

 

[Destraex]

I know, I've played with all versions of their engine. It seems I failed to articulate my point.

This is what I meant:
1. Pixeltruppen scout patrol is slowly moving towards a small hill. The patrol gets a sound contact from the threeline ahead. They are out of radio contact, so they're the only unit that has made the contact as far as the engine is concerned.

2. The player gives a fire position command to the patch of trees where he knows the contact is, and an M18 that has been stationed further away takes some time to do so due the command delay, but soon dutifully follows orders and fires.

In CMx1 games like CMBB this would happen automatically and with less delay.
My point was that in the current versions the player is still effectively able to enact similar "gamey" tactics.

So yes, CM has a good system for spotting and I like it. It's still a game.

I see what you mean now. Players circumventing the system with manual fire orders.
However blind manual area fire is EXTREMELY ineffective in combat mission. Best you could get with luck is suppression and that is if you are very lucky.

 

[safe-keeper]

I imagine that it'd be tough to know who sees what, even with icons and other subtle visual hints. Maybe a solution where you held a key to see red lines showing who had spotted who, but that would get cluttered as all heck with lots of units.

I do want to experience a game where you have actual command delay, unreliable spot reports, actual radio networks, and so on instead of you being this omniscient being who has a perfect god's eye view of your entire army and can telepathically give them instant and precise orders, but for a game like Steel Divisions, units having a "hive mind" so that every unit knows what every other unit is seeing works fine for me.