Building a Better Leader File

[HolisticGod]

All,

With EU III being what it is at the moment and, at any rate, the inevitable division between the two games, one retaining far more historical flavor than the other, I suspect we're going to be here for a while longer. As such, it seems to me that there's still room to improve the game and, having just gone monotonously through the various leader files, this is something I'd like to discuss. It's nagged me for a long time that:

A. The leader files are not sufficiently historical
B. There is too much parity between leaders
C. Generals and especially Admirals play a far greater role in deciding wars than 98% of them ever did
D. Leaders too often represent the martial superiority of a nation rather than an individual
E. All these problems get worse at the top

To start off, I'd like to come up with a system of classification that gives a general range for Generals, starting with the 4+ crowd. As such:

Competent Generals: Combined shock/fire/maneuver of 10-12
von Daun
von Laudon
von Lacy
Blucher
Baner
Tortensson
Vorotinski
Ibrahim Pasha
The Duke of Alba
Cromwell
etc.

Good Generals: Combined shock/fire/maneuver of 13-14
Suleyman
Charles XII
Farnesse
Selim
Etc.

Great Generals: Combined shock/fire/maneuver of 15-16
Eugene of Savoy
The Duke of Marlborough
Alexander Suvorov
The Duke of Wellington
Gustavus Adolphus
Babur
Akbar
Fredrick the Great
Etc.

Conquerors: Combined shock/fire/maneuver of 18
Napoleon Bonaparte

I can't think of any others. Mehmed is historically overrated, as are Suleyman and Selim. The three were probably the finest statesmen of their respective centuries, but they did not accomplish what Napoleon accomplished by force of arms. Fredrick the Great was a superb General, the best of that bunch, but he's in the same boat. Babur is perhaps the closest that I know of, but other than that... The only General of equal or greater range, talent and achievement to Napoleon in the era was Tamerlane, who dies in 1407.

It would have to be fleshed out, but doing it like this, to my mind, accomplishes two things:

1. An overall reduction of the influence of leaders.

2. Better historical flavor.

Thoughts?

 

[unmerged(80795)]

greetings,

do you mean leaders tend to destroy balance in multiplayer games? and at the same time they're not historically accurate? perhaps.

here goes my humble opinion; I support better historical flavor, but be careful about number 1. Let's say i prefer to keep things like they are no matter how bad instead of getting it worse.

Btw, have you seen the knights/templars leaders? thanks God they're tiny at the beginning, having huge generals and admirals at the beginning may be a great advantage, is it the same in the latest times of the game?

faithfully, Ulschmidt.

 

[BurningEGO]

The only General of equal or greater range, talent and achievement to Napoleon in the era was Tamerlane, who dies in 1407.

Tamerlane died in 1405.

C. Generals and especially Admirals play a far greater role in deciding wars than 98% of them ever did
D. Leaders too often represent the martial superiority of a nation rather than an individual

Isnt it the way it is suposed to be? I am fairly sure if it wasnt for a couple of Portuguese leaders like Pereira, Portugal wouldnt even exist today.

I can't think of any others. Mehmed is historically overrated, as are Suleyman and Selim. The three were probably the finest statesmen of their respective centuries, but they did not accomplish what Napoleon accomplished by force of arms.

While i think Medmed is too strong, i think Selim is ok, but i totaly disagree with you on Suleyman - i think he is too weak.

movement = 4
fire = 5
shock = 3
siege = 2

While his fire phase looks somewhat strong, his shock is a joke to what was perhaps the greatest turkish monarch. Leaders like Vorotinski and even Tarnowski can beat the crap outa Suleyman at this stage of the game easily.

 

[HolisticGod]

Ego,

Suleyman ought to be a 4-5-4 at least. What I meant is that he ought not be a 6-6-6, nor should Selim or Mehmed.

As capable as they all were, all were better statesmen than generals.

 

[unmerged(36826)]

D. Leaders too often represent the martial superiority of a nation rather than an individual

I would disagree that this is a bad thing, in multiplayer everyone always goes max quality and max offensive giving countries that usually had an advantage in better troops no way to simulate this.

Having better leaders is the only way that Prussia can hope to win a war such as the 7 years war in eu2, there is no other way to represent their superior quality infantry.

 

[ArmOrAttAk]

All things being equal, a monarch with high military sitting in his castle is enough to inspire his troops where ever in the world they may be to, thrash the troops of a lesser skilled monarch(?) consistently.

I don't see how that would work in the real world but whatever. Make all the generals 2-2-2-2 and the monarchs would be the deciding factor. This is probably the wrong thread to post this but it's nagged me for awhile.
Thanks for listening.

 

[BurningEGO]

so HOG any ideas? or can we state this little plan of yours is already dead?

 

[HolisticGod]

Ego,

It's not much of a plan. Just a discussion.

I do plan on radically rewritting the upper echelons of the leader tables before my next game, however.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Up for discussion:

The EU2 engine in no way limits using 6 as the upper limit. So, we might want to use larger numbers for leaders.
Napoleon could be 7-7-7 for instance.

 

[HolisticGod]

FAL,

It's my understanding, however, that overclocked leaders are unstoppable.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

AFAIK it's just another point to the die roll. The only issue might be that other countries risk getting annihilated more often when fighting Napoleon.
It would mean he would cut easier through maximum forts though and thus simulate a bit better his massive European conquests.
I would make Genghis Khan 10-10-10 for the same reason

As it is now, a revolutionary France with normal borders won't reach Moscow ever.

 

[BurningEGO]

Mhhh, i must say that this gave me some good ideas to the UMPs napy mod.