Bulgaria and the Balkans.

[philiko20]

Hello, I wished you guys would add more provinces in Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece.

Here I would like that you guys added the province of Dobruja with the capital Constanta. Silistra would be at the yellow spot at province 1, and Constanta would be in province 2 at the other yellow spot. Plus Romania would not need Silistra to be formed.

Here I would like if you guys added Syrmia, a province with Croatian culture, and with the capital Mitrovica And you guessed it the yellow spot for where the city should be. D

At province 1 the province Belgrade should be located, and at 2 the province of Serbia I would like to Smederevo be moved to it's real life location.

Can you guys please make Skopje's culture Bulgarian? Skopje has never been Serbian ethnically...

Plovdiv should be a part of Thrace and the region of Bulgaria could be renamed to Moesia.
Bulgaria should have their own Govnerment names and not use the Serbian ones, Bulgarian is East South Slavic while Serbian is West South Slavic.

Bulgaria's govnerment names should look something like this
bulgarian_monarchy = {
rank = {
1 = PRINCIPALITY
2 = KINGDOM
3 = EMPIRE
}

ruler_male = {
1 = KNIAZ
2 = KRAL
3 = TSAR
}

ruler_female = {
1 = KNIAGINIA
2 = KRALITSA
3 = TSARITSA
}

trigger = {
government = monarchy #All later monarchies
primary_culture = bulgarian
}
}

Bulgarian last names should also not end with IC But with OV/EV and with women OVA/EVA

 

[Anatur]

Id like to add that the culture of Hum should be switched to Croatian.

 

[Calanon]

Id like to add that the culture of Hum should be switched to Croatian.

Have you got a source for why? I can't find anything - in fact the one thing I found pointed to it being Serbian by 1444.

 

[Anatur]

The Croatian and Serbian national identity is based around religion.

A Croat is Catholic,a Serb is Orthodox.

This has been the standard despite centuries of mutual persecution combined with Austrian and Ottoman opression.

For a Croat to go Orthodox or a Serb to go Catholic is borderline treason in their respective communities and could at the very least result in their friends and family being deeply disapointed in them.

The whole concept of Catholic Serbs or Orthodox Croats makes no sense in this context,you are either one or the other.

The two cultures and languages are so similair that religion is literally the only serious destinction besides geographical area.

Its similair to Irish and English,for an English to become Catholic or Irish to become Protestant would be very wrong in the eyes of their respective communities.

Hence North Ireland is shown as English ingame.

There is also the little fact of south-west Bosnia Hercegovina being the heartland of the most die-hard Croats in the regions,how casual catholic Serbs became diehard Croats is beyond me.

If we were to ignore the foundation of the distinct cultural groups then we may as well not even have them,just make them all Yugoslav or something,but that would be silly in a medieval context.

 

[Calanon]

The Croatian and Serbian national identity is based around religion.

A Croat is Catholic,a Serb is Orthodox.

This has been the standard despite centuries of mutual persecution combined with Austrian and Ottoman opression.

For a Croat to go Orthodox or a Serb to go Catholic is borderline treason in their respective communities and could at the very least result in their friends and family being deeply disapointed in them.

The whole concept of Catholic Serbs or Orthodox Croats makes no sense in this context,you are either one or the other.

The two cultures and languages are so similair that religion is literally the only serious destinction besides geographical area.

Its similair to Irish and English,for an English to become Catholic or Irish to become Protestant would be very wrong in the eyes of their respective communities.

Hence North Ireland is shown as English ingame.

There is also the little fact of south-west Bosnia Hercegovina being the heartland of the most die-hard Croats in the regions,how casual catholic Serbs became diehard Croats is beyond me.

If we were to ignore the foundation of the distinct cultural groups then we may as well not even have them,just make them all Yugoslav or something,but that would be silly in a medieval context.

As far as I'm aware, Hum was Orthodox in this period (although, it's not in game).

Also, what you say about the Irish and English is wrong - it's probably worse to be a Protestant in Ireland but in England nobody is really going to care if you're Protestant or Catholic. That's also not the reason that Ulster has English culture after a certain start date.

 

[Anatur]

I was trying to explain the situation in a way familiar to westerners.

With regard to Hum the problem is how big it is,the historical region of Hercegovina is significantly smaller and as such it would be easier to determine a proper identity for the population.

In historical terms the western parts of Bosnia were Catholic and eastern parts were Orthodox,given how Bosna,Visoki and Tranuvia are orthodox serb,and Donji Kraji is Catholic Croat so to should Hum be Croatian to maintain a somewhat coherent historical picture.Since i dont think Paradox finds Bosnia important enough to worry to much about redrawing the province bounderies this is the easiest way to fix it.

Not to mention it would make Croatian accepted in Bosnia from the get go without Bosnia needing to rip off Ragusa or Dalmatia,further helping along the whole idea of Bosnia as a multi-confessional Kingdom.

 

[Tsar_Samuil]

I agree with you, however, I think that Nish should also be of Bulgarian culture as it has always been through history.

From Wikipedia:
"In the 19th century the area was one of the centres of Bulgarian National Revival. The French Jérôme-Adolphe Blanqui, when traveling across Balkans in 1841, describes the population of the Sanjak of Niš as Bulgarians. In 1870, Niš was included in the Bulgarian Exarchate. The city was also stipulated the area to be ceded to Bulgaria according to the Constantinople Conference in 1876. Serbian author Milan Savic in his book "History of the Bulgarian people until the end of its state" issued in Novi Sad wrote, that at his time (1878) Nis and environs were Bulgarian populated."

 

[Grand Historian]

I can definitely get behind Dobruja becoming a province in game.

 

[Anatur]

Around 10 million Bulgarians.

Im sure thats enough potential paying customers to justify at least some attention.

 

[staycool.]

I think Constantinople should be Bulgarian culture since it had Bulgarian inhabitants in 1444.

 

[zukodark]

Don't know much about Bulgarian history, but I find the Belgrade province you proposed to be a tad bit small. It would feel out of place in the region, and I'm pretty sure Paradox generally avoids adding such small provinces.

 

[Tsar_Samuil]

Perhaps Kastoria and Selanik should also be of Bulgarian culture. If you look at several ethnic maps of the Balkans you can clearly see they were mostly inhabited by Bulgarians and not Greeks!
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Ethnic_map_of_Balkans_-_russian_1867.jpg
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Ethnic_map_of_Balkans_-_german_1882.jpg

So IMO Skopje and Nish should be of Bulgarian culture, then they should make Halkidiki a seperate province with Greek culture and give Kastoria and Selanik Bulgarian culture.

Edit: You can also see that Nish & Skopje was Bulgarian on those maps, plus, Kastoria and Selanik didn't come under Greek control until 1913!

 

[TheWalttu]

Romanian and bulgarian provinces are the most hideous looking part of europe, and are in serious need of revamp.

Perhaps Kastoria and Selanik should also be of Bulgarian culture. If you look at several ethnic maps of the Balkans you can clearly see they were mostly inhabited by Bulgarians and not Greeks!
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Ethnic_map_of_Balkans_-_russian_1867.jpg
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Ethnic_map_of_Balkans_-_german_1882.jpg

So IMO Macedonia and Nish should be of Bulgarian culture, then they should make Halkidiki a seperate province with Greek culture and give Kastoria and Selanik Bulgarian culture.

Edit: You can also see that Nish & Macedonia was Bulgarian on those maps, plus, Kastoria and Selanik didn't come under Greek control until 1913!

Are these maps valid for 1444? All of these maps date after 1821 and over 400 years before the begining of the game.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Are these maps valid for 1444? All of these maps date after 1821 and over 400 years before the begining of the game.

Of course they are not, but the thing is, Bulgarians tend to think everything is Bulgarian. Because they look at map of greatest extent of Bulgarian empire and they think "is of ours clay".

I find the claim about Nish particularly ridiculous.

Specially maps from 19th century are completely irrelevant because all they show you is the result of Ottoman administrative division within their country, which led to various cultures spreading in certain ways.

 

[philiko20]

It's a shame that the provinces in the Balkans are sparse but there are plenty of provinces in Western countries like Austria. Plus the borders of these countries are often made after modern borders which is an eye sore. Paradox should take a look at the map of MEIOU & Taxes.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Map suggestions are always welcome, and as always be assured that we read them (even if we will make no promises beforehand on what we take from them or when something might be changed ).
The game map is modified every now and then and we are happy to take suggestions (in fact no area has had provinces added as often as the Balkans since the release of the game).
Some general considerations: Very small provinces is something we try to avoid due to clickability issues. That's why we don't have Syrmia much as I'd love that and that's why a micro-Belgrade at least like the one above seems a bit unlikely.
If you want to argue for culture or religion changes then using data as close to the game period as possible is generally advisable. People move around more than one would sometimes assume, we are not trying to recreate 19th century ethnic divisions here As long as it's well argued there is no problem changing things per se though.

Plus the borders of these countries are often made after modern borders which is an eye sore.

On the contrary they generally based on borders from the period. Some very common complaints (like Dobruja with the borders suggested above, or requests to redraw Vidin) is to make them look more modern, even if that wouldn't match any historical border in the era covered by the game.
Current borders are generally trying to allow for accurate country borders at the various dates the game covers and to some extent to match historical administrative divisions in the Balkans (which often means Ottoman Sanjaks). The map is not perfect by any means but it certainly is based on history. If you think it's not, prove me wrong and you might see change

 

[dayalu]

Dobruja.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

Very small provinces is something we try to avoid due to clickability issues. That's why we don't have Syrmia much as I'd love that

Syrmia isn't too small though - it's roughly the same size as Ragusa! To make it bigger, the province could also stretch to Belgrade as the city wasn't owned by Serbia at the game's start of what I know.

 

[Grand Historian]

Dobruja.

Odd that Georgia isn't included on that map as being a Christian State of the East.

 

[Anatur]

Was this map refering to the same time period as when that one Georgian king converted to islam?