Burma region in Interregnum 2

[MattyG]

Given that we have determined that Kubli Khan was defeated and the Toluid Khanate's subsequent history would have been different, do we need to revise the history for the Burma region?

The rough history is that the Mongols arrived, sacked Bagan, but soon after left. However, in the wake of their destruction the Shan peoples moved into the Irrawady valley establishing a number of kingdoms.

We could, inctead, have Bagan resist the Mongols and still be intact in 1419.

We could have the Mongols still have descended south but remained. There could be a small Mongol-led state in the region, plus a collection of Shan and Burmanese states.

Other ideas?

 

[Incompetent]

Did Ahmed do anything in this area? I know he did some events for Champa.

One force I think is missing in the area is the Mon. We ought to at least have a separate Mon culture, as although they have been mostly assimilated today, they were once the dominant culture in the area, and often in opposition to the Bamar. Of course, we ought to have Shan states as well. Power shifted between these three groups a lot during the early EU2 period, though the Bamar eventually dominated and suppressed Mon culture; rulers of both Bamar and Mon kingdoms often had Shan ancestry, but culturally became assimilated by their subjects.

 

[MattyG]

Did Ahmed do anything in this area? I know he did some events for Champa.

One force I think is missing in the area is the Mon. We ought to at least have a separate Mon culture, as although they have been mostly assimilated today, they were once the dominant culture in the area, and often in opposition to the Bamar. Of course, we ought to have Shan states as well. Power shifted between these three groups a lot during the early EU2 period, though the Bamar eventually dominated and suppressed Mon culture; rulers of both Bamar and Mon kingdoms often had Shan ancestry, but culturally became assimilated by their subjects.

I have been working on Ahmed's Champa file but he wanted it revised and never handed in revisions. But it didn't affect too much what would have happened in this region before 1419, in fact not at all.

Great idea on the mon.

Can you suggest which provinces in the new map would be Mon culture?

 

[Incompetent]

I have been working on Ahmed's Champa file but he wanted it revised and never handed in revisions. But it didn't affect too much what would have happened in this region before 1419, in fact not at all.

Great idea on the mon.

Can you suggest which provinces in the new map would be Mon culture?

Well, that depends on whether we want the Mon to have done better or worse than historical by 1419. They should certainly predominate in Bago and Salween, maybe Ayevarwady (historically conquered by Bamar in the 11th century), maybe Tenasserim (mixed area).

 

[MattyG]

Well, that depends on whether we want the Mon to have done better or worse than historical by 1419. They should certainly predominate in Bago and Salween, maybe Ayevarwady (historically conquered by Bamar in the 11th century), maybe Tenasserim (mixed area).

In the spirit of Interregnum ... history's losers become history's winners.

Let's have the Mon do better, but maybe not immediately. They get a surge under the historical Queen Whatshername and if they conquer some of those other provinces they get events to change the culture, having favoured the Mon population there.

 

[Incompetent]

In the spirit of Interregnum ... history's losers become history's winners.

Let's have the Mon do better, but maybe not immediately. They get a surge under the historical Queen Whatshername and if they conquer some of those other provinces they get events to change the culture, having favoured the Mon population there.

Well, if they're going to be at least history's non-losers by 1419, at least Bago, Salween and Ayevarwady should start out Mon, as these provinces represent the core area of the Mon kingdoms.

On the other hand, a weak/non-existent Mongol invasion would mean Bagan would start stronger, which would be at the expense of Mon or Shan states...

How about we start with Bagan in charge of most of the Mon provinces, but those provinces would have Mon culture, which is not a state culture of Bagan. However, later Bagan has some kind of crisis, possibly internal and possibly exacerbated by regional rivals (particularly Khmer and Bengal), which may result in the end of its existing dynasty and takeover by a Mon dynasty (backed maybe by Khmer, who have closer ties to the Mon than they do to the Bamar). Alternatively, Bagan survives the crisis intact and eventually assimilates the Mon (unlikely), or more likely, it survives but is forced to give up its southern provinces to either a Mon revolter or Khmer. The Mon could also break away if Bagan gets invaded from the north, eg by a Chinese state.

 

[MattyG]

Well, if they're going to be at least history's non-losers by 1419, at least Bago, Salween and Ayevarwady should start out Mon, as these provinces represent the core area of the Mon kingdoms.

On the other hand, a weak/non-existent Mongol invasion would mean Bagan would start stronger, which would be at the expense of Mon or Shan states...

How about we start with Bagan in charge of most of the Mon provinces, but those provinces would have Mon culture, which is not a state culture of Bagan. However, later Bagan has some kind of crisis, possibly internal and possibly exacerbated by regional rivals (particularly Khmer and Bengal), which may result in the end of its existing dynasty and takeover by a Mon dynasty (backed maybe by Khmer, who have closer ties to the Mon than they do to the Bamar). Alternatively, Bagan survives the crisis intact and eventually assimilates the Mon (unlikely), or more likely, it survives but is forced to give up its southern provinces to either a Mon revolter or Khmer. The Mon could also break away if Bagan gets invaded from the north, eg by a Chinese state.

Sounds good.

I'll add it to the list of unwritten stories and make a note for when (if) I receive the province.csv from Garbon.