Byzantines 1066

[el_zilcho321]

I've recently had an intention on playing as the Byzantine Empire from 1066 but I find it incredibly hard to beat off the invading hordes of the Seljuk Turks. Does anyone have any tips on starting off and/or beating the Seljuks? I may consider changing the diffuculty settings but I would prefer to play 'properly'.

 

[unmerged(211247)]

I've never played the Byzantines for more than a short time but one piece of advice I have seen before that I know makes sense and worked the one time I did try it, is to attempt to kill off the Seljuk Sultan and his first son quickly. The rapid change in leadership will create a semi-crisis in the country and likely trigger a civil war as many loyalties will be VERY low. I do hope this helps, sorry for my limited experience with the Byzantines.

EDIT: You could also try and let them take a province and offer them your entire treasury to make them go away, should buy you some time but I'm sure you've likely already tried it.

~ Sheep

 

[Count of Reval]

Haven't played Byzantines much, but it seems that in the 1066 scenario you face your worst crisis right at the beginning of the game. If you succeed to survive the initial Seljuk Turks' attack, you are pretty much safe to the end. (Sure, you'll have Realm Duress time to time, but you can handle that.) Some basic advice that I myself try to follow...

First, try to make peace with Seljuk Turks as fast as you can. Offer all your treasury and do it before you sink into deficit with your finances. If Turks attack your vassals do not get involved, let them defend themselves. You may lose significant portion of land in Asia Minor, but you'll regain it later. (Positive aspect of keeping the Turks in war as long as possible is that it raises the probability shortening a life of Alp Arslan - death of him might lead into civil war and fracturing of Turks' empire.)

Second, change your Realm Law to Feudal Contract and give your strongest son enough titles to make him the strongest vassal (he should move first in a succession order). Later you can switch your Inheritance Law into Salic Consanguinity, but because of the loyalty hit taken by altering any law you can't afford change two laws in a short period right at the beginning of the game (you have switched into Feudal Contract already which gives you a vital loyalty bonus).

Third, keep monitoring your BB score and loyalty of your vassals. Accumulate money at the beginning (until your starting ruler dies). Invest only into Court of Justices in the high income provinces if they have criminal structures (thieves guilds etc). You need money to buy loyalty of your vassals after your ruler dies (which will happen soon) or sometimes even before that.

Fourth, enhance your economy (as you need to be wealthy throughout the game to be able smother possible rebellions). Get a high-stat steward in office and try to keep your efficiency at 100% (but note that as a Roman Emperor you can hold more land directly - use this privilege). Research Schools (at least up to level 2 (giving you a chance to build Library, Monastery, Schools), better up to 4 (University)), Thought, Power (at least up to level 2 (Road Net, Extensive Road Net, Civilian Harbor)), Mining (at least up to level 4 (Tile-factory, Mine, Smithy, Improved Mine) and Handicraft (at least up to level 4 (Glassworks, Dyeworks, Brewery)). Build all those Province Improvements mentioned above, if you can afford (at least into your capital and other high income provinces). Also don't forget Court of Justices.

Fifth, try to expand your empire into East always when Seljuk Turks have inner problems (and you don't). They will fall apart sooner or later. Use those periods to gather a critical mass. Try to reach Western and Southern seashores of Caspian Sea to be on the position to deal with Mongols (Il-Khanate) immediately after they arrive and are still weak.

 

[unmerged(37277)]

If I remember everything OK emperor in 1066 is having only Constantinople + his son and heir is very bad. Because of all that my strategy is:

1) mobilization of counts. Why ??
Answer is that they are vassals of my dukes so they will not be angry on me because, but on dukes
2) kill own heir

Emperor is having greatest personal army (army of Constantinople) , but you will loose this army because of attrition if you enter Seljuk Turks territory. For me it is best to use this army against rebel dukes or in defend of territory.

 

[KPJ]

Second, change your Realm Law to Feudal Contract and give your strongest son enough titles to make him the strongest vassal (he should move first in a succession order). Later you can switch your Inheritance Law into Salic Consanguinity, but because of the loyalty hit taken by altering any law you can't afford change two laws in a short period right at the beginning of the game (you have switched into Feudal Contract already which gives you a vital loyalty bonus).

Just a small correction here, no comment on the advice in general. I'm sure what the writer means is to change your Succession Law to Elective Law, not change your Realm Law to Feudal Contract. I assume this mistake because he's talking about inheritance, where Feudal Contract has nothing to do with inheritance.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Just a small correction here, no comment on the advice in general. I'm sure what the writer means is to change your Succession Law to Elective Law, not change your Realm Law to Feudal Contract. I assume this mistake because he's talking about inheritance, where Feudal Contract has nothing to do with inheritance.

Also when you change the inheritance law all your vassals lose 50% loyalty. But this loyalty-hit only happens with changing inheritance-laws. Changing a Realm or Religious law doesn't give your vassals a loyalty-hit.

 

[Brettmo]

Just a small correction here, no comment on the advice in general. I'm sure what the writer means is to change your Succession Law to Elective Law, not change your Realm Law to Feudal Contract. I assume this mistake because he's talking about inheritance, where Feudal Contract has nothing to do with inheritance.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Byzantium starts with Elective Law in 1066 so you can't switch to it even if you wanted to. The advice to change to Feudal Contract is in order to keep your vassals from revolting. Changing your inheritance law while under the pressure of a turkish attack and with a terrible ruler would be borderline suicidal, it's better to set up your prefered heir best you can and then wait for better times.

 

[Count of Reval]

Just a small correction here, no comment on the advice in general. I'm sure what the writer means is to change your Succession Law to Elective Law, not change your Realm Law to Feudal Contract. I assume this mistake because he's talking about inheritance, where Feudal Contract has nothing to do with inheritance.

I didn't confuse different types of law, but my mistake was a false assumption - as Veldmaarschalk rightly pointed out - that changing any law causes a general vassal loyalty-hit. Checked, it doesn't, and it made the whole logic of my argument fuzzy.

But like Brettmo mentioned, Byzantium in 1066 scenario already starts with an Elective Law (which is a Succession/Inheritance Law). As you don't have at the start any representatives of Dukas dynasty besides your son Michael as your vassal - and not much spare land either or great possibilities to expand in starting years to change the situation - it might be safer to switch into Salic Consanguinity as soon as you can (although Michael starts as the strongest vassal and inheritor, it may change - and it's game over then).

I was partly right though: there's at least one character who takes a loyalty-hit when you switch from your starting Realm Law - a Royal Prerogative - to Feudal Contract as Byzantium in 1066... and that's Michael Dukas. The rule appears to be (which I inappropriately generalized to all vassals): vassals who are ruler's children suffer a 30% loyalty drop when you change Royal Prerogative into Feudal Contract. So coupled with a Elective Law into Salic Consanguinity switch (meaning 50% loyalty hit for all vassals), Michael would end up with a 20% loyalty as a result of two changed laws. You may want to avoid that.

The motivation for changing Royal Prerogative into Feudal Contract is that the former Realm Law makes your vassals lose 1% loyalty per month and the latter would increase the loyalty by 1% per month (difference 2% (or 2 percentage points, to be exact)). The result of that switch in Byzantium 1066 case means that 8 out of 10 vassals who lose loyalty each month under Royal Prerogative law (you have 29 vassals in total) start to gain loyalty under Feudal Contract... so you end up just with 2 vassals who have issues with you purely based on personality/trait-conflict.

As an end note: problem with poor-skilled Michael Dukas, your main heir, will be difficult to solve. Michael controls 5 provinces (directly and through his vassals) and you yourself start with just 3 demesne provinces - so you can't give your second son Andronikos enough land to make him pass Michael in a succession order (both - Elective Law and Salic Consanguinity Succession Laws - prefer a character (vassal or son, accordingly) with the most land controlled).

Also when you change the inheritance law all your vassals lose 50% loyalty. But this loyalty-hit only happens with changing inheritance-laws. Changing a Realm or Religious law doesn't give your vassals a loyalty-hit.

Thank you for correcting me. It's always unfortunate to give and get flawed advice. Sorry for that.
(I also sincerely appreciate, KPJ, that you bothered to react.)

 

[KPJ]

Whoops!

 

[Olaus Petrus]

It's very difficult situation and like others said making peace with the Seljuks early is essential. I have had complete disasters where my starting emperor dies in less than a month, vassals take loyalty drop because of his death and start civil war while Seljuks are marching against the Constantinople.

 

[unmerged(37277)]

I do not understand problem with Byzantines in 1066 because solution is very easy and they are strongest realm.
Step by step solution is (I have tested this solution on friday):
1) change inheritance law to Salic Consanguinity
2) kill Michael (which will cost 100). After that your next heir is Andronicos which is very good.
3) Give peace offer to Seljuks (this will cost around 100) and they will accept.

After around 1 year Byzantine Empire have become stable.

ps. in killing Michael I have been lucky because courier has ended education with 15 intrigue skill

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I do not understand problem with Byzantines in 1066 because solution is very easy and they are strongest realm.
Step by step solution is (I have tested this solution on friday):
1) change inheritance law to Salic Consanguinity
2) kill Michael (which will cost 100). After that your next heir is Andronicos which is very good.
3) Give peace offer to Seljuks (this will cost around 100) and they will accept.

After around 1 year Byzantine Empire have become stable.

ps. in killing Michael I have been lucky because courier has ended education with 15 intrigue skill

People have problems because it's very delicate situation and things can go south pretty easily. While those steps you suggest work sometimes it doesn't always work. In worst case scenario:

1) Loyalty drops after inheritance law is changed. Vassals start planning civil war.
2) Assasinations fail and you emperor gets kinslayer trait. Vassal loyalty will drop because of trait and Michael retaliates by assasinating your better dynasty members.
3) Seljuks won't accept peace, because Byzantine Empire suffering from a civil war is an easy prey.

Then the emperor dies. Vassal loyalty drops even more and even those who were most loyal earlier are in open rebellion. Now you're playing as Michael.

Sometimes it takes several restarts before things go the way you wish them to go.

 

[unmerged(37277)]

People have problems because it's very delicate situation and things can go south pretty easily. While those steps you suggest work sometimes it doesn't always work. In worst case scenario:

1) Loyalty drops after inheritance law is changed. Vassals start planning civil war.
2) Assasinations fail and you emperor gets kinslayer trait. Vassal loyalty will drop because of trait and Michael retaliates by assasinating your better dynasty members.
3) Seljuks won't accept peace, because Byzantine Empire suffering from a civil war is an easy prey.

Then the emperor dies. Vassal loyalty drops even more and even those who were most loyal earlier are in open rebellion. Now you're playing as Michael.

Sometimes it takes several restarts before things go the way you wish them to go.

Important is to think positive about all this. If you want to know easier way which is 100 % right without any possible problems:
1) peace with Seljuks in February (you are giving money)
2) mobilization against Michael in February
3) Revoke Michael prince title in March if he refuse declare war
4) Give Thessalonica, Thrakia and prince title to Andronikos after Michael accept or refuse ultimatum.
5) if Michael has accepted ultimatum Andronikos is now emperor heir. If Michael have refused you will take him title with small war.
6) change law to feudal contract so that your nobles will be happy.

With that all Byzantine Empire problems in 1066 are solved

 

[TempestDK]

The starting situation is dire for Byzantines ... as it should be. But in the game, if you just settle peace with the Seljuks, almost anything else can be handled without the whole realm breaking apart (unless you get unlucky and getting realm duress).

Even with Michael at the helm, the empire can be consolidated, and later expanded back to starting borders .. and beyond, once better rulers come along.

The AI is usually unable to handle this situation, as it only changes laws by events. But even then I have seen an AI Byzantine Empire that settled peace with Seljuks early on, and became pretty stable.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Important is to think positive about all this. If you want to know easier way which is 100 % right without any possible problems:
1) peace with Seljuks in February (you are giving money)
2) mobilization against Michael in February
3) Revoke Michael prince title in March if he refuse declare war
4) Give Thessalonica, Thrakia and prince title to Andronikos after Michael accept or refuse ultimatum.
5) if Michael has accepted ultimatum Andronikos is now emperor heir. If Michael have refused you will take him title with small war.
6) change law to feudal contract so that your nobles will be happy.

With that all Byzantine Empire problems in 1066 are solved

Nothing is 100% certain. I have faced reluctant Seljuks who have refused to take my money and there isn't necessarily time to assasinate or attack against Michael before emperor dies, few times I have seen him dying in December 1066.

In any case for me Michael isn't first priority. My first priority is to stop the Seljuk invasion. And while doing that, avoiding doing anything which might lower vassal loyalty and cause realm duress till I have peace with Alp Arslan. Once Seljuk problem is solved it's time to reform the Empire. After there is peace and if I have time before the emperor dies, I rather conquer Pechenegs or some revolting vassal and give their lands to Andronikos than fight against Michael. I often avoid revoking titles as it annoys the vassals.

 

[unmerged(37277)]

It seems that we are different thinking, because for me Michael is number 1 problem not because of bad statistics, but because of bad personalitry traits. He is hated by nobles !!! If Michael is your emperor and if you look nobles loyalty you will see that loyalty is falling because of his bad personality traits