Capturing a Saxon/Welsh stronghold in book 1

[Roghain]

Gentlebeings,

The last few weeks I have started the normal/original campaign over and over again because I kept running into the same problem:

If I went and did the book 1 quests when they arrived, I conquere either London or Vicodium (hmm - sp?) and then book 2 started after which I was dead meat. Overran by the bazillion scripted declarations of war - no matter what my alignment, other kingdoms declare war even though they might be friendly (good, logical diplomacy AI here)

So, in my last game I went and did all the quests exceptcapturing London/Virco. That left the game at a standstill - no one attacked me, I could place armies on XP generating places and have three reasonably strong armies at L10. Gamey, I know, but I got my B-hind handed to me the other times.

Then I went and captured London, went to book two and presto, My L10 tier 1 armies were pulverised - again.

Restart, did likewise but after getting L10 armies, I did not go into book 2. I proceeded in capturing the saxon stronghold in Norfolk so I could research and build better units. That helped something wicked though again this is exceedingly gamey.

Then I started wondering - did I break the game by moving ahead of the scripted events? I do recall a quest wher I have to capture Norfolk.

In other words: how much of a railroading game is this - do I HAVE to adhere to the scripted quests? How much leeway is there before it becomes impossible the finish the game?

 

[unmerged(1133)]

Greetings from another new player
You should not attack Norfolk in Book I.
In book II you have two quests to side either with Norfolk (presumed to go Christian way) or with Welsh (for the Old Faith) - but the faith/religion is not a precondition.
In book II it is safe to get the Britton territory plus the saxon province which in on the other side of Lodres (away from Norfolk) and both Mercia.

 

[Roghain]

Ah, I must clarify - I did not capture a saxon province - just the stronghold in Norfolk in order to facilitate research.

 

[unmerged(1133)]

But this surely made the Saxon king an enemy, right? You are supposed to make him enemy in book 2 and at the same time to be allied with the other faction. At least I am at this point now

 

[ShinWalks]

There is a quest-choice between "Merlin's Return"(?) and "The Wrath of Sir Caradoc" in Book I; what's really at stake there is the choice to form an alliance with either the Welsh or the Saxons. If you're playing for Old Faith you can (temporarily) ally yourself with Wales, which should let you focus more on the Christians in the east; if you want to go Christian you can ally yourself with the Saxons and focus on fighting in the west. What "bazillion scripted declarations of war" are you seeing? I'm playing for Old Faith, and not long after I ally myself with Wales I get DoWed by the king who holds Wessex (Cynric, I believe), but that's all I get, besides the declaration of war from the Saxons (whichever power you don't ally with will immediately declare war). Specifically, I am not getting declarations of war from Mercia or Logres. Are you? Have you been sending armies through their territories without permission (which requires you to declare war on them, which a pop-up should inform you of)?

 

[Roghain]

@Handel: Ah, yes, it does makes him an enemy, yup. From your answer 'you are supposed" I take it that my original question in diverting too much from the scripted path means I will break too many events further along the line. Too bad - but understandable in keeping the game interesting/chalenging, I suppose.

@Shinwalks: If I move into book 2 after capturing London or Vircodium, any nation that was at peace with me (and still exists) in book 1 EXCEPT Wales/Saxons DOWs me within two or three seasons. I find that very annoying but I always thought this was scripted and was meant to 'force' you to unite the bigger part of the map. First one in my three tries was Logres (if I captured Vircodium) and vice versa if I captured London. Mercia (or both if they have split up fast enough and Wessex follow suit.
I don't move into unfriendly territory, nope - the popup does warn me for that. I have not checkd if any armies are standing on friendly territory of other kings - maybe it's okay to move through but not to stop there - beats me.

 

[ShinWalks]

That is very strange. I'm playing Rightful; are you going Tyrant? I don't know how the diplomacy engine in this game works, but I could imagine a high Tyrant score making other kings wary of you. Are you playing at the Very Hard difficulty? I'm playing Normal; possibly other kings are more belligerent at higher difficulties?

 

[Roghain]

Nope, righteous/old faith. Playing on normal.

I think I have broken the game, really. I got to book 2. Have 12 heroes all at L40 or higher. Four armies filled with L10 Seele warriors and Seelie archers. Ridiculous amount of artifacts. This game might need a time rehaul: I am at turn 640: shouldn't the heroes like, I dunno, age?

I daresay the autobattle is broken too. With these way too gamey overpowered armies I crush anything when taking control (0 losses everytime) but the autobattle seems to not take the hroes (and their magic!) properly into account.

 

[Kjeld]

Yes as it has been mentioned you will "break" the game by conquering saxons/wales too soon. I am not sure I understand the problems you had with your original game, but you can research advanced units as soon as you get your stronghold in Camelot, the additional strongholds you'll get by conquering or allying with wales or norfolk are only a bonus. Normally, as long as you do not rush too much the specific quests that advance the saxon/welsh storyline, you can get the other "minor" kingdoms under control.
Maybe knowing what your specific problems are when you try to follow the intended flow of the game will help, as you really shouldn't need to level excessively via location or do anything gamey : are you having economical difficulties ? are you losing too much troops or whole units in tactical battles ? (because of magic ? archers ?) are you using autoresolve ? what kind of units/troop mix are you using ? how many heroes ? how far on the morality chart ?

 

[Roghain]

Sure. Lemme see:

are you having economical difficulties ?

Too little food. I lost enormous amounts of troops and rebuilding them got my coffers depleted. Also the random quests were eating into the province infrastructure so that didn't help either.

are you losing too much troops or whole units in tactical battles ? (because of magic ? archers ?)

I lost too many troops since I didn't use magic properly. The endless num,ber of enemies were simply wearing me down. I couldn't reinforce fast enough (or not at all due to lack of money) so it was a battle of attrition. After I started using magic, it was over. Now I beat anything.

are you using autoresolve ?

No. Autoresolve is broken OR the battle AI is terrible. On autoresolve I loose 40-70% of my troops (when victorious) and 50-100% when defeated. In hands-on battles, I lose ot a single soul now I understand the magic.


what kind of units/troop mix are you using ? how many heroes ?

Three heroes (one of each class) attached to heavy infantry (book 1) or knights (book 2) plus one heavy infantry with four archers, four light infantry and a light cavalry.

Heavies to protect archers, lights to ambush along the likely line of approach, light cav to rush unguarded VLs.
In book 2 I use the best I can get - which given the high frequency of Seelie lords appearing Seelie archers and Seelie warriors that I bribe to join me.

how far on the morality chart ?

Maybe now 60-70% up the 'Righteous' axe and 20-30% up the 'Old faith' axe.

I have noticed a few things in my experimenting:

1) There needs to be a consequence for wasting time. I am at turn 640. Heroes don't age? It is possible to waste time. Maybe there should be a timer on ALL quests.

2) XP generators are abusable. Maybe a limit of L5 for troops and L15 for heroes?

3) XP generator for heros is broken whan over L40. I went from L42 to L61 in two years... no way that has anything to do with 10% (of what?) per season.

4) Too many artefacts. I have 12 heroes, each decked out fully and capable of sinking a battleship single handedly. I got three axes of the firbolg. Artefacts should be rare, mysterious and unique in my idea.

5) Battles are too repetitive because the method of beating them is soo powerrful that is works 24/7. There is no real incentive to try different army compositions. Spam magic on archers, your archers on melee types, heroes to mop up, rinse and repeat. Thats tedious. Maybe tone down magic and archers to allow better use of all troop types?

Next restart I'll limit myself to L5 XP spamming for troops and L15 for heroes and one artefact per hero - and use the 'low powered archers' option. Still, I think there is a serious balance issue with magic that will make the game boring in the later stages?

 

[Kjeld]

Guess you found out what was wrong with your first playthrough In the beginning of the game, you need indeed to keep your troops alive by use of magic. You can't afford too pay too much food replenishing your numbers, and you need the experience (imho, abusing the xp locations is not needed, but keeping your units alive and getting levels after levels is).

There is an option to tone down magic, but it is for the expansions only. Too bad it is not retroactively available in the main campaign.

Keep in mind that (I think) the enemy heroes are actually weakened in normal difficulty (in terms of hit points, combat abilities ...). Trying a harder difficulty may help countering your own juggernauts.

 

[Roghain]

I got all expansions, so I might like them Saxon/Druid campaigns better, then. I'll check that once I finish the main game. From what I understand, the vanila campaign is a lot more interesting, story wise. From what I gathered on the forums, the DLCs add too much and too powerful artefacts and might also be the reason why I got twelve heroes before moving into book 3 where the 'Round table' quest starts. Now I got the quest finsihed before it starts and that might be cuased by the proliferation of knights and artefacts through the DLC.

Might be odd, having a game where DLC actually dminishes the gaming experience