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Alex_brunius

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Mar 24, 2006
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So what do we know so far about this unit that none of the other HoI games have managed to represent in a fair way?

We know that the developers here intend to keep the carriers basic structure from HoI2, meaning that CAGs will still only be attachments that provide stats and long range. CAGs likely won't have a strength bar of their own and this is results in the first problem that needs fixing.

In HoI2 a single Carrier could keep bombing huge fleets for weeks without losing a single airplane. So unless something its shooting on the Carrier itself, it takes no damage. If you didn't detect a naval combat in progress a small amount of Carriers can (and do) sink 10 Battleships from safe range going out of battle with full strength and org. Since CAG strength in HoI2 is represented instead by the org of the Carrier I think the following solution should work:

Anti Air off the enemy fleet (and ship targeted) should be able to damage the ORG of the Carrier, even if its out off range, or the Carrier should at least lose org when bombing. Even if the enemy had no AA few Carriers brought bombs & torpedoes with them for more then 2-3 anti naval strikes. This means no more then a 1-2 days in heavy combat before any carrier will be exhausted, both of working airplanes & ammo.

In short: normal CV combat should work more similar to port strikes in regards to org. The base morale of Carriers and CAGs/techs could also be lowered. It not plausible to replace and have a new Airgroup ready in just a week or less. This means their damage can be raised somewhat since they take much longer to recover and since they lose org from all combat.


The next thing to talk about: Retreat from combat and range. It should only be possible to retreat from Carriers or faster enemies if the weather is bad or at night. Right now only 4 hours of combat means its always a gamble if these 4 hours will occur at day or at night when your fighting with carriers. If your unlucky the enemy will always arrive at the next province in the middle of the night (and you find him instantly). He can then retreat to the next one before day breaks. I've chased fleets across the pacific ocean due to this in HoI2.
Just a few weeks later with the same identical fleets I was lucky to engage in mid day, resulting in those 4 hours always being daytime and the enemy getting sunk almost before a chance to retreat.


On to topic three, Detection.
A problem off HoI2 is that Carriers provide excellent detection, but only in their own seazone. But all Cruisers and larger ships off the time (and Carriers especially) were as standard equipped with airplanes. These airplanes had effective ranges extending much further then their own seazone. For example the A6M Zero had a range off 3000km making it theoretically possible for it to find enemy ships 1500km away from the Carriers (even if they very seldom flew further out then 1000km).

The most reasonable thing to do here Imo is to change naval detection into what the airplanes can detect and have it also work (with less effect) 1-2 Seazones away. This means Cruisers and Battleships also help some with it due to their floatplanes and that detection is reduced to 0 where the weather is stormy or at night. By using sonar & radar however it would still be possible to detect an enemy in the storm or night, so how about letting sub detection represent this. This "sensor detection value" could also detect other ships in the own seazone and have radar/sonar techs improve it?
Another option would be to use the air detection value for detection from aircrafts and have 3 different detection values.

The good thing about having a separated detection value for aircrafts is that this could also be given to airbases and navalbases(float/seaplanes) in small amounts to represent abstracted usage of scout airplanes included in their cost.

To make this more visible to the player I will also suggest adding a mouse-over tooltip to terrain displaying the detection value you currently have there (and lifting Fog of War).

In summary this could make Carriers, airplane techs/doctrines as well radar & sonar advances crucial to find the enemy in at sea before he finds you. This is something I truly feel is missing in HoI2, Latewar American Carriers and picket destroyer doctrines meant that very few things could approach within 500km of the Taskforce without getting detected and intercepted.
 
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In reality the airplanes did a recon around the carrier. It was about 200-250 km circle and rising over doctrines and new plane models. By 1944 it would rise to about 450-500 km. So I think that early game being able to spot enemies only in the seazone the fleet is in is OK. Late game there might be a tech allowing carrier to use its seadetection in surrounding seazones. This might be an elegant solution.

About the strengh bar in the carrier. Well this is a shame, was it confirmed by the developers? Maybe we can just manipulate the starting organisation and the morale to balance it.
 
I think that it should be possible for developers implementing the carrier air combat. Leaving the current set up as it is (cag attachment) when a carrier attacks it should be possible to consider the air defence/air attack of the target. The outcome should change the stats of the carrier in terms of strength as well.

For example if the carrier with a cag attached has 10 air attack (resp. 10 air defence) and the target has 50 air defence (resp. 50 air attack) I would expect a loss both in org and strength of the carrier. I'm wondering whether adding this feature to the combat mechanics is a big effort or not.
 
Would be good if it was a mix between hoi2 and 1.

The planes are seperate units, however they fight in the naval battles using the good range thing, only the carriers try to keep distance, the plane units try to close.

This way crucial battles like the marianas can happen, wherin the japs lost basicly their whole naval air fleet.
 
I always hated, that my battleships just had no chance to come in range - i would love to prove that a yamato class BB could do better at a battle like Battle of Samar (vs TF taffy3 with 6 CVE)
So it's fine to me to make naval battles a bit more of a risk for carriers
I would prefer real losses of CAG (--> strenght of a CAG brigade or something like that) to just an org decline of carriers