Cathars and Bishops

[Drachenfire]

Questions:

1. Per our conversation on the main forum, I have edited all the characters in Toulouse as Heretics to represent their deeply held Cathar Christian beliefs, however how do you make the provances as heretical?

I can't wait to play a full scenario as a Cathar!!!


2. How does one set the stats for a courtier to be made as a bishop? I have added the bishops in the four diocese of Wales, and the bishop of Rennes, for the 1204 scenario. But the AI always gives them another position. Is there no particular way or format to encourage the AI to make these courtiers as the diocese bishop?

 

[kadvael56]

1. Per our conversation on the main forum, I have edited all the characters in Toulouse as Heretics to represent their deeply held Cathar Christian beliefs, however how do you make the provances as heretical?

In the save file CTRL+F id = XXX (do not have the game now to check Toulouse's tag), then go the province effects and now I am not sure about what you need to add maybe heretic or heretical, I can look at it during this week-end if someone does not answer sooner. Maybe you can load a save file from a game where you have a heretic province and search for heretic.

2. How does one set the stats for a courtier to be made as a bishop? I have added the bishops in the four diocese of Wales, and the bishop of Rennes, for the 1204 scenario. But the AI always gives them another position. Is there no particular way or format to encourage the AI to make these courtiers as the diocese bishop?

Find your character in the save and write: court = 6, that is what I use to have a pagan religious advisor, you can even appoint females to this job.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

1. You can edit them in 1204_scenario_provinces.inc

Find the provinces you want to be heretic and add this

province = { 
	id = 1 
	culture = norwegian 
	religion = catholic 
	privileges = { 
		peasants = 1 
		burghers = 1 
		clergy = 1 
		nobles = 1 
	}
	loyalty = { 
		peasants = 1 
		burghers = 1 
		clergy = 1 
		nobles = 1 
	}
	improvements = {
		hill_fort = yes 
	}
	advances = {
		hill_fort = yes 
		chained_leather = yes
		handaxe = yes
		longspear = yes
	}
       [COLOR="Lime"]       effects = { heretic = yes  } [/COLOR]
}

 

[Drachenfire]

1. You can edit them in 1204_scenario_provinces.inc

Find the provinces you want to be heretic and add this

province = { 
	id = 1 
	culture = norwegian 
	religion = catholic 
	privileges = { 
		peasants = 1 
		burghers = 1 
		clergy = 1 
		nobles = 1 
	}
	loyalty = { 
		peasants = 1 
		burghers = 1 
		clergy = 1 
		nobles = 1 
	}
	improvements = {
		hill_fort = yes 
	}
	advances = {
		hill_fort = yes 
		chained_leather = yes
		handaxe = yes
		longspear = yes
	}
       [COLOR="Lime"]       effects = { heretic = yes  } [/COLOR]
}

Ahh! I see. Thank you very much. Ill do this when I get home.

@kadvael56 Does it have to be in the save game file? Or can court = 6 be added to the characters folder? What are the various positions? And where would I write that in terms of the rest of the code? And is your name kadvael from Cadfael? The Welsh name meaning 'battle prince'? Or did you chose it from the Brother Cadfael historical murder mysteries?

 

[kadvael56]

@kadvael56 Does it have to be in the save game file? Or can court = 6 be added to the characters folder? What are the various positions? And where would I write that in terms of the rest of the code?

I never tried to add it in a scenario, since I mostly play counties, I do not have courtiers to give positions so I do not know if it can be added to the scenario_characters file, I should try. For the positions 2 is for chancellor, 3 is steward, 4 is marshal, 5 is spymaster and 6 is diocese bishop. Usually I add it after the traits as it is done automatically in a save file, though I am not sure if it is mandatory to put it there.

Edit:

And is your name kadvael from Cadfael? The Welsh name meaning 'battle prince'? Or did you chose it from the Brother Cadfael historical murder mysteries?

Kadvael is the Breton spelling of the Brythonic name so it has the same meaning as the Welsh Cadfael. I have read Ellis Peters' books, maybe there should be a mod for the civil war with a former crusader monk .

Edit2: Court positions number.

 

[Arko]

I can't wait to play a full scenario as a Cathar!!!

wouldn't it be too difficult to play ? (suicidal could be a better word)

persisting in heresy leads to excommunication...

i'm thinking about a medium to make it more playable.
perhaps a new trait that kinda legitimates an heretical ruler by giving him piety and prestige bonus and don't make him hated through all the world
Or maybe heresy may lead to the creation of a virtual "new" religion through this trait

there's something to do with this - very enjoyable things

just thinking...

any more ideas ?

 

[Drachenfire]

wouldn't it be too difficult to play ? (suicidal could be a better word)

persisting in heresy leads to excommunication...

i'm thinking about a medium to make it more playable.
perhaps a new trait that kinda legitimates an heretical ruler by giving him piety and prestige bonus and don't make him hated through all the world
Or maybe heresy may lead to the creation of a virtual "new" religion through this trait

there's something to do with this - very enjoyable things

just thinking...

any more ideas ?

I would want it to be playable, yes indeedy.

I wonder if we could find a way to link the heretic trait with other already established traits? Therefore, for a character to acquire a heretic trait they would also gain one or more of the others.

Reading the traits description, there is no effect per se of the heretic trait itself except as a trigger to experience religious turmoil events and that a heretical person is "poorly regarded". We would need to know what those events are. I have no issue with a heretic being poorly regarded by mainstream Catholicism, but other heretics should regard them favorably. And if a Heretical lord encouraged heresy within his domains, and his own vassals are heretical as well, would they not also be friendly and supportive of him? Especially if the rest of the world viewed them all unfavorably? Heretical characters should seek each other out for alliances and friendships too. Perhaps some events can be created to "boost" their piety, as for their own point of view they are indeed pious... just not to the Catholic Church.

Veld... what thread where we discussing this in the other forum?

There is allot I would like to do with the heretic trait. Heretics could simply be non-conformists, or they may hold values that are more ascetic. Additionally, many of these non-conformists were minorities who were persecuted by the official Church policy on various things. I know through my readings that certain movements, described as heretical, drew adherents because they allowed women priestly roles, or more authority. Likewise, some heresies had a far more sanguine and tolerant view towards homosexuality, and therefore drew that minority into its ranks.

I myself am not attracted to Cathar Christianity, largely because central to their belief system is that the temporal and corporal world is in fact the work and creation of the devil... and that the devil entraps the good, androgynous souls into the temporal world through procreation. So the Cathars promoted first abstinence from any sex- even by husband and wife, then non reproductive sex (sexual acts or techniques that would not lead to procreation- including homosexuality, which is where we get the term buggery in the English language. Much of Cathar beliefs were transmitted through the Gnostic Bogomils) as well as Vegetarianism.

I myself believe that this world is a Devine manifestation of the Holy, and sex is a natural element of holy nature. So I cannot believe in the Cathar position.

But I do not want the heretical trait to only be about Catharism. It should be broader then that, and only encourage those who are Non-Conformists into closer alliances and cooperation.

There is allot we can do, the thing is to do it. Lol. Are you good at event scripting? I am not yet sure how to do that as yet. I can come up with ideas based on historical examples, but actually creating the matrix will take time for me to learn. I have been looking into other event files trying to learn by "reverse engineering". So to speak.

 

[Arko]

There is allot we can do, the thing is to do it. Lol. Are you good at event scripting? I am not yet sure how to do that as yet. I can come up with ideas based on historical examples, but actually creating the matrix will take time for me to learn. I have been looking into other event files trying to learn by "reverse engineering". So to speak.

not very good at event scripting. I scripted some basic events using the event creator but that's all
modding or adding a trait is quite easy

something like this could be a base:
heresy confirmed leads to be a reformist leader

user_defined_c = {
antithesis = { crusader = yes }
opinion = {
excommunicated = 10
grey_eminence = 5
heretic = 25 #relationship boost with other heretical
illusive_shadow = 15
indulgent = -10
just = 10
mastermind_theologian = 10
scholarly_theologian = 10
prodigy = 10
}
attributes = { martial = 0 stewardship = 0 diplomacy = 2 intrigue = 4 }
periodic_score = { prestige = 1 piety = 2 }
}

TRAIT_NAME_USER_DEFINED_C;Religious reformist;;;;;;;;;;X
TRAIT_DESC_USER_DEFINED_C;this intrigal character is a fervent religious reformist, respected by people and local clergy. Constant opposition with the pope leaded him to devellop his diplomacy. (+4 intrigue +2 diplomacy + 1 annual prestige +2 piété);;;;;;;;;;X
#EOF;;;;;;;;;;;X

trait icon may be based one a cathar cross (a bit specific i know)
http://idata.over-blog.com/1/27/51/12//croix-cathare.gif

one of the main thing to do is a way to compensate or ignore the effect of being excommunicated that destroys easily your realm because of loyalty hit

 

[Drachenfire]

I am almost done modding the 1204 scenario start for Jord, then this week we can implement the above.

I did try assigning characters to particular court positions but with no success. I was adding it after the traits, but prehaps I am still not doing it correctly. Oh well, so long as they are in the court then that is good.

I was viewing all of the heretic characters and lands in the 1204 scenario.. which was basically all of the Duchy of Toulouse. But within 20 years they all lost their heretic trait, even the lands, and the most interesting turn of events, the former hereitical duke of Tolouse became papal controller!!!!

I won't be able to start a satisfactory game until I can get a gay triat in there too! hehe. But also... what do you think of these traits to add if we can? I was looking at some of the traits and thinking we can merge one or two of them, giving a totle of four or five traits.

 

[Arko]

I won't be able to start a satisfactory game until I can get a gay triat in there too! hehe. But also... what do you think of these traits to add if we can? I was looking at some of the traits and thinking we can merge one or two of them, giving a totle of four or five traits.

I currently don't use the 3 user's defined traits. so there's some place to add "religious reformist" (or whatever) and also gay trait which seems quite interresant but not very specific to a heresy mod, just have it to be compatible for people who wants to use it.
If we need some other free traits I don't know really which ones we can remove without screwing all the events. perhaps sunni and shiite seem less useful.