China possesses a profound tradition of kingdoms

[HBTX99099]

中国是有其深厚王国传统的，以宋代路一级行政区划分割王国头衔非常不恰当，是舍近求远的。更何况“唐”、“宋”以及之前王朝的国号多来源于春秋战国时期的王国。建议制作组取材“秦、晋，郑、韩、魏、卫，齐、鲁、宋，楚、吴、越，燕、赵、中山”这些王国头衔来划分北起燕山、阴山南至珠江，西起贺兰山、祁连山东至东海的中古时期华夏核心地区，外围如西域、安南、安东、靺鞨、南诏等地区采用民族名或都护府的名称。
请让我举个例子，比如秦王、晋王这样的封号，对于大一统中原帝国应该类似于英国王室的威尔士亲王。如果只参考宋代路一级行政机构的划分命名，就会失去这么重要的历史概念。
我知道这对于非中国历史研究者来说非常艰难，感谢你们的付出。
附图取自《中国历史地图集》
"China possesses a profound tradition of kingdoms. It is highly inappropriate and unnecessarily convoluted to divide kingdom titles based on the Song Dynasty's 'Lu' (Circuit) level administrative divisions. This approach overlooks more direct and historically relevant precedents. Furthermore, the dynastic titles of 'Tang,' 'Song,' and earlier dynasties often originated from the kingdoms of the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods.
It is suggested that the development team draw upon kingdom titles such as 'Qin（秦）, Jin（晋）, Zheng（郑）, Han（韩）, Wei（魏）, Wei (卫), Qi（齐）, Lu（鲁）, Song (宋), Chu（楚）, Wu（吴）, Yue（越）, Yan（燕）, Zhao（赵）, Zhongshan' （中山）to demarcate the core Huaxia (Chinese) regions during the medieval period. This core area would stretch from the Yan and Yin Mountains in the north to the Pearl River in the south, and from the Helan and Qilian Mountains in the west to the East China Sea.
For peripheral regions such as the Western Regions (Xiyu), Annam (Vietnam), Andong (Korea/Manchuria), Mohe, Nanzhao, etc., it would be more appropriate to use ethnic names or the names of Protectorates (Duhufu).
Let me give an example. Titles like 'King of Qin' or 'King of Jin' in a unified Central Plains empire should be analogous to the 'Prince of Wales' in the British royal family. If one only refers to the division of administrative units at the 'Lu' (circuit) level during the Song Dynasty, such an important historical concept would be lost.
I understand this is a very challenging task for those who are not researchers of Chinese history, and I appreciate your efforts.
(Attached map is from the Historical Atlas of China.)"

 

[DiabloDeVille]

They already said they were using game balance to decide chinese kingdom sizes, your map is a complete smattering of shapes

 

[darthfanta]

The problem is that few people had really used those Spring and Autumn to Warring States administrative divisions to form breakaway states for a very long time. Many of the states mentioned aren't even proper kingdoms either. Zheng for example was a County and just a relatively small region in Henan. The same with Wey(卫), Song(the warring states version), Lu etc. Only the Seven Warring States + Yue probably had the appropriate mass to be considered kingdoms. Those Warring States/Spring and Autumn states were mostly irrelevant except his peerage titles/rough areas of origin from which people derived the new dynasty's name from. Not as actual breakaway regions. The typical breakaway layout/regions people self-identify as were typically somewhere in Longxi+Guangzhong, Shaanxi(Jin),Hebei,Henan plus Shandong, Sichuan, Hunan/Hubei, Jiangdong, Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan. Using Spring and Autumn/Warring States as basis for territorial division would be about just as relevant as Paradox trying to divide Europe in CK3 based on pre-Roman Antiquity polities.

 

[Song of Falcon and Owl]

In this way, let me first explain the vassal states of the Song Dynasty:
Great country 35: Yan燕, Qin秦, Qi齐, Wei魏, Han汉, Zhao赵, Song宋, Liang粱, Jin晋, Chu楚, Lu鲁, Chen陈, Wu吴, Yue越, Xia夏, Shang商, Zhou周, Han汉, Tang唐, Sheng升, Ji冀, Yu豫, Yan兖, Jing荆, Yong雍, Yang扬, Xu徐, Zhen镇, Yi益, Deng邓, Bin邠, Tan潭, Liang凉, Yun郓, Shu蜀.
Secondary country 24: Wei卫, Zheng郑, Cai蔡, Cao曹, Xu许, Dai代, Ying瀛, Qing庆, Qi岐, Sui随, Mi密, Xing邢, Shou寿, Lu潞, Su苏, Ding定, Xiang相, Guang广, Yan延, Wu婺, Jing泾, Fu福, Su宿, Hua华.
There are also 222 small countries, please forgive me, I accidentally made a mistake when sorting out these small countries, resulting in all the sorted content into nothing. I really don't want to go through it again.Let me be lazy and just give you the Chinese version of these 222 small countries: 江、滕、向、黄、纪、谯、原、弦、祈、邰、耿、舒、介、道、鄷、蒋、萧、郕、谭、霍、莱、郇、鄅、邬、戴、桐、遂、管、沈、虞、应、息、英、任、崇、荣、扈、濮、巢、观、安、申、虢、邾、杞、贾、鄫、邙、巴、夷、谷、苹、糜、黎、葛、蓼、顼、聃、邗、茅、胙、庸、毕、滑、鄀、牟、权、甘、粲、尹、温、毛、樊、成、单、流、巩、邵、邶、鄘、韦、鬲、宁、杜、吕、皖、留、郃、鄠、郿、焦、宛、鄼、穰、叶、郢、鄢、缗、剧、费、稽、郚、陇、范、程、离、潜、涪、辽、赢、绛、汲、梧、輁、营、翕、秺、兰、易、鄗、洮、泽、昌、翟、陆、淄、卞、稐、肤、翼、邹、房、袤、康、市、邳、彭、寰、鄂、邺、蓟、颖、汧、沔、沂、肃、岷、郦、鄯、莘、顺、渝、郫、蒲、酅、丰、棣、光、仪、怀、永、盛、济、儇、义、卢、襄、均、睦、丹、思、简、忻、韶、嘉、端、循、恭、愿、雅、通、虔、资、昭、钦、珍、淑、集、和、衡、会、抚、岳、袁、桂、蕲、沣、深、洋、建、鄜、琼、茂、衢、澶、德、吉、景、彬、博、贺、惠、润、菖、郯、夔、芮、辥、郧、章、罗、郜.
I think a better approach is to construct based on the cognition of people at that time rather than re-applying some overly ancient divisions - um... Moreover, the State of Zhongshan is really not suitable to reappear. This country is somewhat out of place because it is rather special. Incidentally, there were also similar lists of kingdoms in the Liao or Jin dynasties for reference.
Note: Zhao, Song, Shang and other sealed states theoretically do not seal, this is because of taboo, or "BiHui". Zhao is the royal surname of the Song Dynasty, Song is the title of the state, and Shang is almost equal to Song because of some historical origins, or vice versa, Song is almost equal to Shang, so these titles are theoretically unsealed, but there are always extreme cases, such as Zhao Yuanfen, who was once named the King of Shang, again because of very extreme exceptions.

 

[HBTX99099]

They already said they were using game balance to decide chinese kingdom sizes, your map is a complete smattering of shapes

I think you didn't understand what I meant. I hope the production team will refer to the country name and related geographical concepts, not force them to give up the gameplay and succumb to historical facts.

 

[HBTX99099]

The problem is that few people had really used those Spring and Autumn to Warring States administrative divisions to form breakaway states for a very long time. Many of the states mentioned aren't even proper kingdoms either. Zheng for example was a County and just a relatively small region in Henan. The same with Wey(卫), Song(the warring states version), Lu etc. Only the Seven Warring States + Yue probably had the appropriate mass to be considered kingdoms. Those Warring States/Spring and Autumn states were mostly irrelevant except his peerage titles/rough areas of origin from which people derived the new dynasty's name from. Not as actual breakaway regions. The typical breakaway layout/regions people self-identify as were typically somewhere in Longxi+Guangzhong, Shaanxi(Jin),Hebei,Henan plus Shandong, Sichuan, Hunan/Hubei, Jiangdong, Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan. Using Spring and Autumn/Warring States as basis for territorial division would be about just as relevant as Paradox trying to divide Europe in CK3 based on pre-Roman Antiquity polities.

I completely agree with you. I hope the production team can refer to the country name and the general geographical concept, which is more in line with the Central Plains dynasty's understanding of the kingdom. For example, Qin was in Shaanxi. I am not asking the production team to completely succumb to historical facts and give up the gameplay.

 

[HBTX99099]

The problem is that few people had really used those Spring and Autumn to Warring States administrative divisions to form breakaway states for a very long time. Many of the states mentioned aren't even proper kingdoms either. Zheng for example was a County and just a relatively small region in Henan. The same with Wey(卫), Song(the warring states version), Lu etc. Only the Seven Warring States + Yue probably had the appropriate mass to be considered kingdoms. Those Warring States/Spring and Autumn states were mostly irrelevant except his peerage titles/rough areas of origin from which people derived the new dynasty's name from. Not as actual breakaway regions. The typical breakaway layout/regions people self-identify as were typically somewhere in Longxi+Guangzhong, Shaanxi(Jin),Hebei,Henan plus Shandong, Sichuan, Hunan/Hubei, Jiangdong, Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan. Using Spring and Autumn/Warring States as basis for territorial division would be about just as relevant as Paradox trying to divide Europe in CK3 based on pre-Roman Antiquity polities.

I completely agree with you. I hope the production team can refer to the country name and the general geographical concept, which is more in line with the Central Plains dynasty's de li jie of the kingdom, such as Qin in Shaanxi. I am not asking the production team to completely succumb to historical facts and give up the gameplay.

I completely agree with you. I hope the production team can refer to the country name and the general geographical concept, which is more in line with the Central Plains dynasty's understanding of the kingdom. For example, Qin was in Shaanxi. I am not asking the production team to completely succumb to historical facts and give up the gameplay.

Let me give you an example.

The problem is that few people had really used those Spring and Autumn to Warring States administrative divisions to form breakaway states for a very long time. Many of the states mentioned aren't even proper kingdoms either. Zheng for example was a County and just a relatively small region in Henan. The same with Wey(卫), Song(the warring states version), Lu etc. Only the Seven Warring States + Yue probably had the appropriate mass to be considered kingdoms. Those Warring States/Spring and Autumn states were mostly irrelevant except his peerage titles/rough areas of origin from which people derived the new dynasty's name from. Not as actual breakaway regions. The typical breakaway layout/regions people self-identify as were typically somewhere in Longxi+Guangzhong, Shaanxi(Jin),Hebei,Henan plus Shandong, Sichuan, Hunan/Hubei, Jiangdong, Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan. Using Spring and Autumn/Warring States as basis for territorial division would be about just as relevant as Paradox trying to divide Europe in CK3 based on pre-Roman Antiquity polities.

Let me give an example: titles like the King of Qin or the King of Jin, for a unified Central Plains empire, should be akin to the Prince of Wales in the British royal family. If we only refer to the administrative divisions at the Song dynasty's circuit level, we would lose such an important historical concept.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

I think you didn't understand what I meant. I hope the production team will refer to the country name and related geographical concepts, not force them to give up the gameplay and succumb to historical facts.

So what was the point of the map you included? Why say "It is highly inappropriate and unnecessarily convoluted to divide kingdom titles based on the Song Dynasty's 'Lu' (Circuit) level administrative divisions." if you are actually fine with the lands being divided into more equal sizes?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Let me be lazy and just give you the Chinese version of these 222 small countries

Need I remind everyone that all posts are supposed to be in English?

I wouldn't want to see infractions being handed out when people are trying to help but it may prove necessary if this doesn't change.

 

[Song of Falcon and Owl]

Need I remind everyone that all posts are supposed to be in English?

I wouldn't want to see infractions being handed out when people are trying to help but it may prove necessary if this doesn't change.

I'm very sorry that there is no English translation for the content about the 222 small countries... I think this could be regarded as a citation from a document. Moreover, these 222 small countries are not very important. When the English translation was first initiated halfway through, it accidentally led to the destruction, which made me eventually give up this decision. Please forgive me. This is really a tricky project and it's also mentally exhausting.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

I'm very sorry that there is no English translation for the content about the 222 small countries... I think this could be regarded as a citation from a document. Moreover, these 222 small countries are not very important. When the English translation was first initiated halfway through, it accidentally led to the destruction, which made me eventually give up this decision. Please forgive me. This is really a tricky project and it's also mentally exhausting.

Well, you could have just deleted them from your post if they're not very important.

 

[HBTX99099]

"As I mentioned earlier, I used the example of the Prince of Wales in the UK because of 'kingdom traditions' and 'geographical concepts.' However, the Song Dynasty's 'Lu' (circuit) level administrative divisions were deliberately designed through careful planning to go against these kingdom traditions and geographical concepts. This was out of consideration for strengthening centralized power. If the production team were to define kingdoms based on these 'Lu' level administrative divisions, it would contradict the very concept of a kingdom. I'm not sure if you can understand what I'm saying."

So what was the point of the map you included? Why say "It is highly inappropriate and unnecessarily convoluted to divide kingdom titles based on the Song Dynasty's 'Lu' (Circuit) level administrative divisions." if you are actually fine with the lands being divided into more equal sizes?

 

[darthfanta]

Since dynamic naming is apparently a thing, I would suggest the following instead. And in the following division which I think is more appropriate. The kingdoms should be as followed in it’s provincial name/independent name form, depending on whether it’s a province of an empire or as a breakaway state: Guanzhong(關中)/Qin(秦),Hexi Corridor(河西)/Liang(涼),Sichuan/Shu(蜀), Shandong/Qi(齊), Henan(河南)/Zhou(周), Hedong(河東)/Jin(晉),Hebei(河北)/Wei(魏, doesn‘t correspond to the warring state Wei, but Cao Cao’s own kingdom of Wei as enfeoffed by Han was situated largely there, and afterwards, the region was largely synonymous with Wei), Beijing area/Lulong/Youzhou/Yan(燕), Huainan(淮南)/Wu(吳), (Zhejiang+Jiangxi)Jiangnan(江南)/Yue(越), Hunan+Hubei/Chu(楚), Fujian/Min(閩),(Guangdong+ Guangxi) Lingnan(領南)/Yue(奧),Guannai(關內)/Xia(夏, traditionally, the actual state of Western Xia was called such because of the Xia prefecture within the region). I think these kingdoms would be more appropriate than paradox creating all those mini-kingdoms on the map. Guangdong being it‘s own kingdom with two duchies was really weird. Once you establish an empire, dynamic naming should change the name of the empire/dynasty based on the initial kingdom you used as a primary title or give you a choice to choose any other. In practical purposes, I think the Song Dynasty circuits served better as duchies instead of kingdoms for the most part. Most of them were deliberately designed to be small by the Song/Tang Dynasty. The Counties(in game counties) by contrast should be modelled on Zhous/prefectures.

 

[BeorTheOld]

Need I remind everyone that all posts are supposed to be in English?

I wouldn't want to see infractions being handed out when people are trying to help but it may prove necessary if this doesn't change.

If the names of the states where in another language that used Latin characters you wouldn't have said anything.

 

[ray243]

If the names of the states where in another language that used Latin characters you wouldn't have said anything.

As long as the entire post isn't in Chinese, I think that's fine. It's similar to how people uses various greek words to describe the Byzantine state apparatus and names.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

If the names of the states where in another language that used Latin characters you wouldn't have said anything.

Are you accusing him of being racist against chinese people? The forums being in English are to help facilitate communication between all users, which chinese characters obviously get in the way of

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Are you accusing him of being racist against chinese people? The forums being in English are to help facilitate communication between all users, which chinese characters obviously get in the way of

This. Thank you.

 

[BeorTheOld]

The main problem is not the shapes of the kingdoms, it is the names. The devs should really pick more evergreen names, names that work for kings when they are vassals or independent. Lets take the most egregious examples "Jingdongdong", "Jingdongxi", "Jingxibei" and "Jingxinan". "Jingdong" and "Jingxi" were names of circuits during the Northern Song dynasty. Jing (京) means capital, dong (东) means east, xi (西) means west, bei (北) means north, nan (南) means south. They were named "Jingdong" and "Jingxi" because they were east and west of the capital, modern day Kaifeng. Jingdongdong means capital east east or East East of the Capital or if I'm being very generous "East Jingdong". East Jingdong would be a way better name than Jingdongdong, but an even better name is Qi (齐) which is the name of many different kingdoms and states that occupied the region near modern day Shandong province. If China fractures into many kingdoms is it really appropriate for a kingdom to be called Jingdongdong? What capital is being referenced? If the capital of the empire moves to a different city, Jingdongdong is no longer appropriate.

The OP makes a good point, Chinese history gives us many historical names to pull from, Qi, Zhao, Wei, Qin, Jin, etc. Many of these names have geographical connotations that the devs can use to give kingdoms that adhere to their balance standards.

At the very least the devs should change the kingdoms' directional suffixes to English. East Jingdong vs Jingdongdong, North Jingxi vs Jingxibei, West Guangnan vs Guangnanxi etc.

 

[darthfanta]

The main problem is not the shapes of the kingdoms, it is the names. The devs should really pick more evergreen names, names that work for kings when they are vassals or independent. Lets take the most egregious examples "Jingdongdong", "Jingdongxi", "Jingxibei" and "Jingxinan". "Jingdong" and "Jingxi" were names of circuits during the Northern Song dynasty. Jing (京) means capital, dong (东) means east, xi (西) means west, bei (北) means north, nan (南) means south. They were named "Jingdong" and "Jingxi" because they were east and west of the capital, modern day Kaifeng. Jingdongdong means capital east east or East East of the Capital or if I'm being very generous "East Jingdong". East Jingdong would be a way better name than Jingdongdong, but an even better name is Qi (齐) which is the name of many different kingdoms and states that occupied the region near modern day Shandong province. If China fractures into many kingdoms is it really appropriate for a kingdom to be called Jingdongdong? What capital is being referenced? If the capital of the empire moves to a different city, Jingdongdong is no longer appropriate.

The OP makes a good point, Chinese history gives us many historical names to pull from, Qi, Zhao, Wei, Qin, Jin, etc. Many of these names have geographical connotations that the devs can use to give kingdoms that adhere to their balance standards.

At the very least the devs should change the kingdoms' directional suffixes to English. East Jingdong vs Jingdongdong, North Jingxi vs Jingxibei, West Guangnan vs Guangnanxi etc.

Only if they are independent. I think we should stick to a mix of the Early Tang and Ming era territorial maps for guidance of how to divide the empire, as well as common regional identities and actual breakup of states. You can see that there are common overlaps in all four maps. No viceroys/governors ever governed a territory designated using the pre-Qin territorial names. Such names are only really used when they are rebelling and want to show independence.

 

[HBTX99099]

Are you accusing him of being racist against chinese people? The forums being in English are to help facilitate communication between all users, which chinese characters obviously get in the way of

Watch your language!