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unmerged(9078)

unmerged(9078)

Robotnik
Apr 28, 2002
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Most cities were founded in the 13th and 14th centuries, so at the beginning of the game there might not be many of them. What impact do they have on the game? In cities, the normal order was absent and the burghers began to exist, which had neither the priviliges of the the nobles, nor the obligations of the peasents. Will the player be able to enact special rules for them or try to not grant them more freedom? You know, the stuff that was in the EU2 random event "cities demand rights", only taken to a higher level.

Apart from this, I'd like to spawn a little history thread, in which everyone can post the story of the beginnings of his hometown. Of course only thos that were founded in the CK covered time-period. I want to begin:

My homecity is Bielefeld (also called Biliveld in historical documents), which lies in eastern westphalia It was founded in the 11th century. It is situated near the Teutoburger Forest, a mountain range, where the Cheruscian prince Arminius defeated the roman legions in 9 a.D.
This mountain range has only one passage through which one could traverse. This passage was naturally frequented by many merchants. Especially those moving goods between the bishop's seat of Münster to the rich commercial town of Lübeck. Another traderoute crossed the aforementioned one in the vincinity of the passage. That's where Bielefeld was constructed by count Ravensberg, which would control the city until the thirty-years war. As you can see, the founding of Bielefeld served many purposes: Economical, as you could tax and support the merchants on the trade routes and of course strategical. By the way, just a few miles north of Bielefeld lies the town of Schildesche where archbishop Bruno I. was born, who happened to be the brother of Emperor Otto I., the great!

I'm looking forward to hearing the stories of your cities.
 
Many, but maybe not most.

In what was Germany, for example, Cologne, Aachen, Frankfurt, Mainz, Speyer, Worms, Bamberg, Wurzburg, Ulm, Augsburg, Zurich, Constance, Regensburg, Salzburg, Brunswick, Munster, Magdeburg, Paderborn, Metz, Trier, Verdun, Hamburg, Bremen, Luneberg, and so on, where all founded before the game begins. Vienna, Goslar, & Nuremberg existed by the reign of Henry III (1039-1056). Brussels & Louvain grew rapidly in the 11th-12th c. The Zahringens founded Bern, Freiburg, Fribourg, etc. during the 12th c., while Henry the Lion was promoting Lubeck in Saxony & Munich in Bavaria.

Meanwhile, in England & the Angevin Empire, London was as big or bigger than Cologne, while York, Lincoln, Winchester, Norfolk, and others were "cities", as were Rouen, Bordeaux, & Angers.

Italy was even more developed. Milan, Venice, Genoa, Rome, Naples, Palermo, Pisa, Bologna, etc., were huge by western standards even in the 12th c., and others followed close behind, like Verona, Turin, Pavia, Cremona, and so on.

So maybe some of the cities that exist today werent founded by the 13th c., but many more were already capitals of Duchies, Marks, Counties, or even Kingdoms. Certainly, Cologne, Bruges, Ghent, London, Paris, Milan and such were "cities" by contemporary standards before the game even begins in 1066.
 
Although if youre saying we should be able to found new cities, I agree. :D

And I live in America, so my home city has no interesting historical background. Somebody picked a spot in the exact center of the state and built the capital there. Fascinating. :p
 
Originally posted by BarbarossaHRE
Although if youre saying we should be able to found new cities, I agree. :D

And I live in America, so my home city has no interesting historical background. Somebody picked a spot in the exact center of the state and built the capital there. Fascinating. :p
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Sounds much like Lübeck, queen of the Hansa was founded by the Welfen in 12th century. Only they added the fun of building in swamp land. ;)
 
Originally posted by Sytass
Sounds much like Lübeck, queen of the Hansa was founded by the Welfen in 12th century. Only they added the fun of building in swamp land. ;)
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Right, but at least Lubeck sat astride an important trade route...my city just sits. ;)
 
Originally posted by BarbarossaHRE
Right, but at least Lubeck sat astride an important trade route...my city just sits. ;)
Click to expand...

I see your point. ;)
 
Seeing as the city I live in was only founded in 1788, I don't think I will have much to contribute to this thread... :eek: :D
 
Well, the town I live in has been having the "Lübsche Stadtrecht" since 13th century and has been inhabited for over a thousand years.

Oh, in 1032 this was the only fortification in Holstein that withstood the Slavs attacks. There's been a nunnery here since 1256. During the 30 Years' War, Wallenstein was encamped here for some time but spared the city, because they valiantly surrendered! :D However, the Swedes burnt her down a few years later. ;)

But that's as remarkable as it gets - as a matter of fact, my home town is downright boring aside from those points. :p
 
This brings up an interesting point...
The German marches and the Teutonic Order founded many towns, estates, bishoprics etc. in the "pagan" lands of Poland, Lithuania and the Baltics during this period or earlier (if I'm not mistaken)...

WIll we be able to do the same?

FOunding bishoprics, esp. in newly conquered "heathen" lands e.g. al-Andalus, Sicily, Baltics, Scandinavia could be a feature of the game, and could gain prestige points and increase administration in the new territories?
 
Originally posted by historycaesar
Instead of founding a city per se, how about: giving land to either a noble, bishop, or burgher group. Then they could found a town and see if it succeeded
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Sounds good. In fact, it's much how my city developed:

A village was here in the beginning. Then, naturally came a chruch in 11th century. A small keep was built, and the town got city rights. A nunnery followed. And nearby was the Breitenburg estate. So for centuries, there were four different areas of jurisdiction in my town:

The keep (regional ruler)
The town (city rights)
The nunnery (clergy rights)
The Breitenburg estate (local aristocrat)

From what I've gathered so far, I think we need to keep the citizens, the clergy, and the aristocrats in the regions happy.
 
As already mentioned: Essays about cities in general, and particularly those founded after the CK time period are Off Topic here. Please stay to the topic of this forum! :mad:
 
Originally posted by Sytass
Well, the town I live in has been having the "Lübsche Stadtrecht" since 13th century and has been inhabited for over a thousand years.

Oh, in 1032 this was the only fortification in Holstein that withstood the Slavs attacks. There's been a nunnery here since 1256. During the 30 Years' War, Wallenstein was encamped here for some time but spared the city, because they valiantly surrendered! :D However, the Swedes burnt her down a few years later. ;)

But that's as remarkable as it gets - as a matter of fact, my home town is downright boring aside from those points. :p
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And now, would you care to tell me, what the name of this town is? ;)
 
Originally posted by Mieszko
And now, would you care to tell me, what the name of this town is? ;)
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That'd be Itzehoe. :)
 
I'd love the option of founding cities, or even more detailed, give priviledges of market, mint etc, and deciding the level of autonomy. But how would that work? From what I gather about the design so far, a province/county would just have a capital. Any information that there are other cities on the map or will play a role in the game?

I suppose that by conquering a pagan province, the central location will simply be promoted to a civitas.

"In cities, the normal order was absent and the burghers began to exist, which had neither the priviliges of the the nobles, nor the obligations of the peasents."

The reality of the legal status of town inhabitants was much more complex, but I doubt that will be reflected in the game...

PS: My hometown goes back to roman times, so... ;)
 
I would like to see cities be constructed by whoever and that sometimes it might be constructed by someone who is not a vassal to the local landlord, so it might cause problems there. I mean, if a city revolts, does the rest of the province stay normal? Or are cities and provinces the same in this manner, like it was in EU? I heard, that there will be free cities, but I guess these are only small provinces and are handled exactly like all the other provinces. I think it's historical if cities kind of have their own minds. Many cities were led by an council of 12 men, who would direct the city to their bes profit. Yet, this might be in the opposite direction of the guy, who is leading the province as a whole. So, the city might rebel, or at least be not obedient to him. Still the rest of the province and it's nobles and therefore the military would be loyal and they could siege the city until it is back in the province owner's pocket. That happened often during that time, didn't it?
 
Originally posted by Mieszko
Or are cities and provinces the same in this manner, like it was in EU? I heard, that there will be free cities, but I guess these are only small provinces and are handled exactly like all the other provinces.
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I believe the city and province are one like in EU...
 
My own city was founded in the 14th century, but appeared in the documents in 1409. Not much to say about it...in the 16th century it had the impressive population of 1,500 dwellers and in the 19th about 20,000. The communist dictators thought it would be good to create some industrial giants in the zone, and the result is obvious: Bacau has today about 210,000 people...

And I don't agree with the concept of in-game city founding. I would accept it in the first part of the game (until 1347-1348), when the population was booming and there was a real necessity for new towns. But even then no big or important towns were created... as BarbarossaHRE suggested, the majority already existed, in a form or another...
 
Originally posted by Havard
I believe the city and province are one like in EU...
Click to expand...

And as far as I can tell the map is not dynamic - so why all the fuss about founding cities? You conquer/obtain the province - you get the city. You kick pagan ass, you get the province, you get the city in the province. Unless there is more to the map than what we have been told. (And since we have not seen a clear picture of the map that may be true.):)
 
As I live in London I think I will forgo the task of running off its history - considering that it generally takes a book length document to do so.

The bit of London I live in (Tolworth) afaik isn't that old, probably no more than 500 years. Will check it out on the net and see.
 
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