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Broletariat90

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Jul 6, 2013
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Would it be appropriate to cite Winston Churchill as a historian? What is interesting in this case was not only was he actually a participate in history but was a bit of amateur historian as well. Though I'm pretty sure his work on the Second World War had a political agenda to get his name back into politics after being replaced by the Labor Party. Would it be okay to cite any of his work in an academic paper? Or since he is more of an amateur historian, is it something to be avoided? A lot of it is outdated as well but I'm trying to use him as an example of how the West looked down on Poland during the war. I'd love to hear some opinions!
 
I would not cite him as a historian. In Belgium the word only applies on people who studied history on an academic level. He rarely did archival work, and hired academics do distill sources from vast archives. So Churchill himself was more of a writer (on history) than a historian.
 
I would not cite him as a historian. In Belgium the word only applies on people who studied history on an academic level. He rarely did archival work, and hired academics do distill sources from vast archives. So Churchill himself was more of a writer (on history) than a historian.
What if I was trying to use him as an example of figures who helped spread misconceptions relating to the Poles in the September Campaign? So I don't exactly claim he is a historian but a figure that shaped popular opinion? Can anyone recommend any historians that portrayed the Polish army in 1939 in a very negative light in any post war years books? I've already used Liddel Hart.
 
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Yes, Churchill is actually quite astute as a historian. He has several volumes of history to his credit.

As all human beings, he has blind spots. First off, anything involving himself needs to be treated like Liddel-Hart; they tend to be a bit heavy handed when it comes to their own laurels but other than that their analysis is usually spot on. Winston also has enormous difficulty reconcilling John Churchill's brief imprisonment and the fact he was publicly derided even after being made Duke of Marlborough when public sentiment turned against the war. Other than Jesus at Nazareth, he speaks as if it is the biggest betrayal in history.

He did write an account of The Second World War, so you can cite him as a historian regarding the Poles. However, be sure to mention he was an active participant and the First Lord of the Admiralty, and Naval Intelligence is the cornerstone of the British Empire. Certainly as a participant, a very well known participant, his opinion would be valued.

Use William Stephenson, he specifically discusses the Poles removing the Heydrich Enigma machine, copying it, and sacrificing their own borders to give the code breakers in Britain a gift beyond compare. I repeat, the Poles DID NOT mobilize though they knew the Germans were coming in order to protect the greatest asset the Allies would have against Germany. This is worth a mention in an essay. More accurately put, it's worth an essay in and of itself. God Bless the Poles.
 
Would it be appropriate to cite Winston Churchill as a historian? What is interesting in this case was not only was he actually a participate in history but was a bit of amateur historian as well. Though I'm pretty sure his work on the Second World War had a political agenda to get his name back into politics after being replaced by the Labor Party. Would it be okay to cite any of his work in an academic paper? Or since he is more of an amateur historian, is it something to be avoided? A lot of it is outdated as well but I'm trying to use him as an example of how the West looked down on Poland during the war. I'd love to hear some opinions!

Certainly, one could cite him in an academic paper. However, he is not, strictly speaking, a secondary writer in a lot of cases; his histories of conflicts he was involved in are primary accounts, and indeed, even autobiography. Moreover, I'd be careful making so clear cut a distinction between historian and primary author; especially in the case of many populist writers there is little to set them apart, certainly none of the objective rational analysis based on empirical evidence that one would expect from an academic account (and even here, one should not take academic sources at face value).

Really the thing here to remember, as with any source, is to use it for what it is useful for; very few sources, perhaps even none, will be utterly useless, but some offer things more useful than others. Take Mein Kampf for example; it is of extremely limited usefulness regarding the influence of Jews on German politics in the interwar period (ok, it gives you one view, but it is a very poorly evidenced and illogical view), but it is very good at telling you what Hitler and the great many who thought like him understood the Jewish influence to be.

If you're a history student, then for completeness sake I'd suggest that any subject majorly involving Churchill, you would be amiss to fail to cite the man himself, if only in a historiographical context and to establish the man's own argument (or at least, his later argument).

What if I was trying to use him as an example of figures who helped spread misconceptions relating to the Poles in the September Campaign? So I don't exactly claim he is a historian but a figure that shaped popular opinion? Can anyone recommend any historians that portrayed the Polish army in 1939 in a very negative light in any post war years books? I've already used Liddel Hart.

Certainly this would seem valid. If you're looking for other sources, German propaganda is likely to be a good one. Try looking up some copies of Signal and see how the Poles were represented in that. As an aside, take a drink every time there is a picture of German troops advancing through a foreign village which has miraculously set itself aflame!
 
If not as a historian, then at the very least a primary source
 
You can cite anyone you want in an academic paper, presuming it's fit according to style and footnoting standards. It might be more appropriate to cite certain sources pending on the type of paper you're writing however. I suppose you should ask yourself what kind of paper you're writing. "Popular historians," "amateur historians," or "journalist historian" types are very much fair game -- but my experience is that citing them as the bulk of an argument for a more "august" paper would be frowned upon. Citing them sparsely isn't a major concern, if anything, it shows a familiarity with the wide variety of sources available. If you're writing a historiography paper that outlines multiple perspectives, or if you're directly talking about Churchill, it would suffice. Political oriented paper equally worthwhile. Really comes down to what type of paper you're writing and why Churchill would be a relevant source to consider.

Source: I actually work in academia and have published in academic journals.

Good luck!
 
Use William Stephenson, he specifically discusses the Poles removing the Heydrich Enigma machine, copying it, and sacrificing their own borders to give the code breakers in Britain a gift beyond compare. I repeat, the Poles DID NOT mobilize though they knew the Germans were coming in order to protect the greatest asset the Allies would have against Germany. This is worth a mention in an essay. More accurately put, it's worth an essay in and of itself. God Bless the Poles.

Why would anyone need to decipher German codes to know that mobilization in 1939 after talks about Germany wanting Danzig back post Czechoslovakia, that mobilization would be a good idea?
 
Why would anyone need to decipher German codes to know that mobilization in 1939 after talks about Germany wanting Danzig back post Czechoslovakia, that mobilization would be a good idea?

If you don't know the story, it is very easy to find. It is one of the great, forgotten, cornerstones of WWII history.
 
If you don't know the story, it is very easy to find. It is one of the great, forgotten, cornerstones of WWII history.
I know about the Poles breaking the Enigma code on the older machine and never revealing that fact it under torture, all the way to their senseless execution. Somehow it helped on breaking when they got their carbon copy that the Germans were stupid enough to put the letters in alphabetical order on the wheels.

Unfortunately adding two more wheels made it practically impossible until Alan Turing and team built their computer, also with the help of Germans not following their own procedures designed to prevent breaking the codes, plus an actual U-Boot code book later on. It seemed the Kriegsmarine had by far the most discipline when using the machines, probably didn't hurt that unlike the enigma operators in the Lufftwaffe and the Heer, the operators on the U-Boots were going to die with everyone else if the code got deciphered.
 
I know about the Poles breaking the Enigma code on the older machine and never revealing that fact it under torture, all the way to their senseless execution. Somehow it helped on breaking when they got their carbon copy that the Germans were stupid enough to put the letters in alphabetical order on the wheels.

Unfortunately adding two more wheels made it practically impossible until Alan Turing and team built their computer, also with the help of Germans not following their own procedures designed to prevent breaking the codes, plus an actual U-Boot code book later on. It seemed the Kriegsmarine had by far the most discipline when using the machines, probably didn't hurt that unlike the enigma operators in the Lufftwaffe and the Heer, the operators on the U-Boots were going to die with everyone else if the code got deciphered.

Not a bad two paragraph synopsis.

My personal conviction is the primary reason the Nazis lost was their complete and utter failure in the intelligence war; when OKH is telegraphing the order to Russia while simoultaneously transmitting them to front line commanders, it's tough to win a war. And this all starts in Poland.
 
Not a bad two paragraph synopsis.

My personal conviction is the primary reason the Nazis lost was their complete and utter failure in the intelligence war; when OKH is telegraphing the order to Russia while simoultaneously transmitting them to front line commanders, it's tough to win a war. And this all starts in Poland.
I totally agree, the intelligence game was comically bad. I mean aside from what you mentioned, and having no central intelligence agency, but the level the armed different services were hiding information was dumb founding. I mean in 1943 the Luftwaffe found a crashed B-24 with airborne decimetric radar and don't bother to tell the Kriegsmarine for over a year, so they needlessly used the wrong kind of radar detector that entire time on their U-Boots set for a longer wave frequency :eek:
 
Is that true ? :D
I saw it on a documentary years ago. I don't think they mentioned exactly why that was such a bad flaw, so you could add it up to bad research from the documentary. On youtube people that are actually good with encryption/decryption seem to all say the main problem was that a character on the enigma machine could be randomly anything except itself. So the UK made an enigma machine that could do that and the Germans thought that it would be impossible for them to decode and was far superior to enigma, which was a correct assumption at the time.

Then add operators getting sloppy and not changing their initial code setup or at least repeating the same ones a lot. The same documentary said they noticed that enigma machine operator kept using the same three letter code, which they think were the initials of an actor that did American cowboy movies or something, a pretty big stretch given they didn't interview the operator or even mention they know who he was.
 
Is that true ? :D

Not quite, all the wheels were different and designed to be swapped out at certain intervals. The standard Engima used three rotors at a time, but had several more than that to choose from.

But there is some truth to the alphabetical order. In the commercial Engima machine, the keys of the keyboard were wired to the "entry ring" in the same order as they appeared on the keyboard - QWERTZU and so on. The Germans changed this in their machines and the British couldn't work out how. Mathematically, it's a daunting task since there were 26x25x24x23 (all the way down to 1) possible wiring schemes. The Poles managed to solve it by simple guesswork, or by figuring that Germans will be Germans. Instead of QWERTZU they had simply wired the keys alphabetically.

In and of itself it wasn't a catastrophic flaw, but the Engima had a bunch of flaws that allowed for it to be broken, the placement of the fast rotor and the fact that a letter couldn't be enciphered as itself were some others.
 
Very interesting. And yes I asked because placing things like that in alphabetical order is sooooo typical German.
 
How else would ze hyperefficient Germans arrange the alphabet except in alphabetical order? Anything else is simply comical.

And of course all transmissions must contain the words Heil and Hitler. Which was the Achilles heel Bletcley Park attacked first.
 
Very interesting. And yes I asked because placing things like that in alphabetical order is sooooo typical German.
Your irresistible temptation from ordnung is strong.

And of course all transmissions must contain the words Heil and Hitler. Which was the Achilles heel Bletcley Park attacked first.

Is that true or did they make that up like a lot of other things in the Imitation Game? I looked at the wiki article about hacking of German codes from pre-war to the end of the war and it wasn't mentioned.