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Orinsul

Absent Minded
118 Badges
Feb 7, 2008
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As much as I want see Crusader Kings II I kind of don’t want Paradox to make it, atleast not without a dedicated force of medievalists and historians and atleast a single catholic at their side to explain what the Middle Ages actually were and tell them what all the long words mean. The main fault of Crusader Kings the first is symptomatic of all paradox game and that is viewpoint and treatment of history. Crusader Kings covers Europeans Golden Age, the height of Christian civilisation and all the things that made it so are either ignore entirely or treated as barbarism.
The great movements of the age are ignored entirely, the revolution of the Frairs goes unmentioned and the reforms of the church with it, the turbulence of the Manichean heresy and the albigensian crusade again is entirely skipped over. Feudalism is treated as mere tyranny, kings raised to the corruption and authority as was only ever seen long after the reformation once the system had degenerated completely, Serfdom is treated as though it were slavery with peasants rising against it where they only ever rose to defend it and the church is only ever mentioned when its either having its power abused or is abusing it itself, despite the era being one of great progressive reform everything is shown in the light of the most abhorred Whig history and a dismay and disgust of the past. The game purports to be set in the Middle ages but in reality it is really only set inside the middle ages as presented in American cartoons.
The feudal contract was missing one side, everything was authority and privilege with none of the responsibility, the game was one founded around individuals and yet it was expected to represent an age where everything was about families. Men were not tied to the land but to each other, it was in map of the middle ages drawn over a simplification of roman barbarism. It was a world of nationalism, not of the universalism, a world of slaves not of serfs. And there are a thousand other complaints along the same lines. Crusader Kings is a great and unique game, but it is not set in the middle ages despite the years in the top corner, despite the names of the map.
I would suggest vitally that they atleast read up on it first, not just the dates and battles and names of kings which is a good way to cover most of the other periods of mankind, but for the unique and great middle ages it is really the character that must be studied. I would suggest ‘the Glory of the Medieval World’ by Regine Pernoud, not just because it is a good and plain look at the culture and law and the middle ages but also because if a game it to be set in the middle ages it should be made from the perspective of one who loved them, although a dedicated Historian on staff would really be the only serious route of action, and there are plenty of unemployed medievalists in the world, it’s a degree that really only qualifies you to teach it to other people and they generally have the benefit of being the sort of people who are passionate about the middle ages. And it wouldn’t take more than two seconds to ask what the term original sins means, any catholic could have told you and even that little step wasn’t taken in the first, it was almost as if they didn’t even try.
But if paradox are to make Crusade Kings II, as they are the only ones who can, being both the makers of the first and the only company to not only touch but to master the genre, If Paradox is to make Crusade Kings II, they’re going to need a lot of help. They’re great at the programming but out-sourcing the research is really the only way to go if the game is even to be a touch on what it ought to be. Of all the games that paradox carries it’s the one with the most potential, and itd be a shame to see that wasted. And if it is written like all the other paradox games in the secular protestant tone all too ready to attack the past for not being what modern liberals would think good then it will not become what it should be, what it deserves to be.
 
Well i dont agree with everything you write here about how the peasants perceived the serfdom. For example the feudal system was rejected many times in frisia and some other places where communities thwarted many attempts to bring them into serfdom. However the of course there were benefits for the serfs it was for example they were rarely thrown off the land they had from the lord so they had security.

Crusader kings for me was the only game that made me feel like I had to always be vary of my vassals as i never knew if could count on them to answer the call when needed. In most games you barely have to worry about anything its like you control every aspect of the society where as in Crusader kings you have to count on the other people(ai of course) to carry out your will.

I have never seen a game that shows this so well so i dont know what other company would be better to make this game honestly.

And about the book you suggested. The risk with listening to someone who loved the middle ages is of course that they are glorified too much. It sounds to me that the book is ripe with unfair reverence of the nobility of old.
 
i chose that book as an offhand example because it was written with the love of it while still being without heavy bias and easily readible by itself by people who arent academics. But thats not the point and frisia is always an exception to a french rule. but its not specific examples as that just leads to more narrow quibbling, its the whole feeling of the thing, the wider view.
You had to worry about your vassals, which kings usually didnt unless things were going wrong, but you never had to worry about the barons who were always trouble and a greater threat. Legitimacy was important, self-proclaimed claims not so much, Families were more important than people, it was not that this man was king, but that he was the descendant of this other king and the father of the future king.
While Crusader Kings is a great game, it is not as great as it should be. And taking the time to actually make the next one have something to do with the period it covers would make it so.
 
As much as I want see Crusader Kings II I kind of don’t want Paradox to make it, atleast not without a dedicated force of medievalists and historians and atleast a single catholic at their side to explain what the Middle Ages actually were and tell them what all the long words mean. [...] And it wouldn’t take more than two seconds to ask what the term original sins means, any catholic could have told you and even that little step wasn’t taken in the first, it was almost as if they didn’t even try.
It's Sweden. Catholics are a rare commodity!
 
Nice post, Orinsul, but I believe it to be ultimately wrong. I can see your point, but I don't agree with your "evidence". Here's why:

1) "The great movements of the Age" were great, no doubt about that, but they were greatly influential, not great in their nature, seeing that you mean the latter. These "Great movements" (as their respective equivalents in pretty much any era in humanity's history) were about distribution and redistribution of power, not about improving human society, nor about improving human life, or some sort of desire for "doing good". Which leads to...

2) "Feudalism is treated as mere tyranny","Serfdom is treated as though it were slavery", yes, they are represented like that, and yes, that's pretty much what they were. How else would you call a political system which values your "blood" and/or "connections" and does not give a s*it about your human potential ? No matter how smart/handsome/phisically strong/hard-working you are - if you were born a poor low-life, you will live and die as a poor low-life. Also you didn't even choose who governs your life - power was given on hereditary basis, not mandated by the people whom it concerned. I do agree however that "Tyranny" doesn't necessary mean "evil" - there were many individuals holding political or religious power who actually cared about their subjects and worked towards their well-being as well, not just their own.

3) The church - I frankly don't want to discuss this in great detail, but I'll say this - NOTHING in the entire history of the church was ever done with good and moral intentions at heart, sorry to disappoint you. The church as an institution was (and still is) an extremely effective instrument for gaining influence and power over the people and at those times the church had sometimes significantly more influence than even the majority of the kings! Just look at the amount of lands they had and the enormous revenues they were making. Plus, I don't think that there has ever been a more repulsive form of business than the selling of indulgences.

4) "the game was one founded around individuals and yet it was expected to represent an age where everything was about families. Men were not tied to the land but to each other", Honestly, I have the feeling the we have been playing different games here. Crusader Kings is the only strategy game that I know of which has you playing a DINASTY, instead of playing a kindom/country/faction/tribe/race/whatever. So while you techically load the game as "Kingdom of Bulgaria", what you are really loading is a game about that dinasty, with the interests of the kingdom coming after that. Once again - this is the only such strategy game that I know of, so I honestly can't understand that particular part of you post.

5) I admit that I have not read "the Glory of the Medieval World", but I find it hard to believe that a book with such a title is 100% objective. I have however read large exerpts from the memoirs of several Byzantine emperors and let me tell you - behind the beatiful language there is only talk of intrigue, power-lust,scheming, screwing your opponents, manipulating the people, manipulating other rulers, cutting deals with the church and other such "Great movements" and "Glorious medieval practices". Very little actual "glorious" stuff in there, I have to say.


Don't get me wrong - I respect your opinion, but I see it as very subjective since obviously this is a period in human history that you are passionately interested in. I would imagine that I'd be quite similar if I begin talking about the Greco-Roman times, since this is my personal favourite period in history :rolleyes:
I do agree however, that there were many things in CK1 that could have been better/more accurate and that additional historical research can only benefit the (potential) CK2.
 
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A whole lot of text there Orinsul (and for god's sake please separate your paragraphs with a line between them - vladyman too please), but you talk very little about game mechanics.

Now this is only a small post, but the line you see above this one would make your text so much easier to read. Easily done, just press <enter> twice, rather than once when you finish a paragraph. Now, that nitpick aside...

What exactly do you want to see changed in the game and how would you like to see it expressed? In terms of game mechanics, not some abstract discussion on the period that you haven't really linked to the game.
 
Before you blame Paradox and CK you should know under what circumstances the game was created and the limitation of the EU-engine.
 
Before you blame Paradox and CK you should know under what circumstances the game was created and the limitation of the EU-engine.

You are asko forgetting/are not aware of the whole snowball debacle

EDIT

Paradox outsourced the work on CK to a russian company called snowball (I think they are still responsible for russian localization of pdox games not sure). They failed horribly to keep any kind of schedule and pdox had to take over a mess of code and salvage what they could to make a playeble game, the very buggy first releas of CK. All this is IIRC
 
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The game mechanics are fine, but the research is not there, it is not any game mechanics that the game lacks as it is an amazing game as all paradox games are, what it lacks is the Middle Ages.

And my proposal with double spacing is this, Paradox cant make it alone, and if they do it will suffer greatly for it. The evidence of Crusader Kings, but not only, any even cursory look at their EU series shows that they suffer for lack of history and a single anti-historical viewpoint. with the reformation as the most obvious example.

IF Paradox is to make Crusader Kings II [and i sincerely hope they do as it would be their best game ever] they should have on their staff atleast one dedicated medievalists and probably a couple of dictionaries too.
 
So... the game plays fine,you have no qualms with the gamer play. But you have a problem with the research?

What are you after here? Sorry, I'm probably having a blonde moment, but I just don't get what you want. I understand the need for historical research, I'm just wondering what you want them to contribute to the game is all.

You just want better information showed on... for want of a better term... information screens? You want better descriptions of all the laws, decisions and the like? Or are you actually after different events and decisions that better showcase the realities of medieval life (as opposed to the somewhat cliched view)?
 
I want the game to reflect the era, not information screens but events to be ones that fit with the era, Laws and decisions and systems and mechanics to actually be representive of the Middle Ages, for the game to be SET during the time it covers. To have people who know what their talking about involved in the creation of the game.
Not just for flavour, but in the foundations of the game. To have it be a game ABOUT the middle ages, not just pretending to be. Victoria was built with the idea of capturing the spirit of the Victorian age, sadly the same was not true about Crusader Kings.
 
As previously stated, a lot of what may (or may not) have had a lot to do with the Snowball debacle. It's a bit hard to tell from a distance, but I do have a vague recollection that the original was very much rushed out in a short time after they had to completely scrap the snowball game. Maybe that contributed to the game design in a rather large way.

I'd be guessing though that, like most Pdox games, the users provide (some of) the best mods, ideas and the like for the games. So... why not just put out what you'd like to see changed. Many people do it in other forums, and now, prior to CKII even being announced, is probably the time to do it. There's even a CK2 wishlist thread.

So, maybe put your ideas forward in a constructive way (no, I don't feel the title of this thread is overly constructive). Take the basis of the game (The Crusades and Dynasties) and build on it with ideas of how the Medieval world should be portrayed. So, give them some ideas, rather than just criticism.
 
I don't really get the point of Orinsul's original post.


I mean, yeah I miss a few things unique for Hungary. (no hereditary titles, not correct succession law in game)
But in general, the game pictures the vassalisation process and the dynasty thing correctly.

It could be better, but I don't know any other game where you can become duke of Saxony (and HRE vassal) when starting as a polish count.



Do you miss more laws? More events? Or what?


EDIT:
The comparison to Victoria focusing on historical events, like a specific crusade against heretics, or a group of serfs who happened to love their lord is not right.
Victoria has lots of scripted events, while Crusader Kings is not a scripted game.

If I compare CK to EU2, I prefer CK. The train line -like events of EU2 (no matter what you did, you were doomed with certain nations without serious event reading) drove me nuts near the end...
 
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It is important to note that Paradox is not making scholarly studies, history books for classrooms or simulations. They are in the business of making computer games that are entertaining. If you have suggestions how to make the game more fun to play for most players, please do present them in this forum. If Paradox were at some point to make a Crusader Kings 2, they for sure would read around at the forums to gather opinions.