Community Pressure - is this a thing? or am I imagining it?

[BadPeanut]

Over the past few months I've noticed a very high amount of pressure being put on mod developers and asset creators, particularly in the form of constant requests for improvements, suggestions, more aggressively: demands on progress, and sometimes (rarely) abuse when things aren't happening to a person's liking.

I'm not saying this to rile anyone up or anything, I'm more wondering if there's anyone else who's noticed this trend, or has felt this pressure themselves - and I mean more than a normal amount of pressure: obviously people who create stuff know that people will always make requests, seek help etc, and that's fantastic and really encouraging for any creator to feel like there work/efforts are loved and wanted by the community.

If you disagree (which I would love you to do, it might restore some faith in the community) I can think of a few examples where modders/creators have either announced 'retirement' (for want of a better word) or have slipped off the grid.

I know there can be many many reasons for this to happen too - I'm not saying that the intensity of the community is solely contributing to these people leaving, but I guess I'm wondering/speculating that it's definitely been a factor.​

Anyway, examples I can think of include:

rollo: who gave us the original terrain tool amongst other great and sometimes necessary mods
TPB: who has recently returned to C:S but took long leave for health reasons
Sims Firehouse: Who gave us the original multi track enabler, he seems to have gone
joaofarias: original Traffic++ dev (and aubergine seems to have gone quiet too)
cbethax: original Traffic Manager dev​

Now I can think of a few more but hopefully you get who I'm talking about.
It seems that the more 'necessary' and popular a mod/asset is the higher pressure there is on that dev to come up with new things or to keep it active - which again is fine if only the community was less brutal about it. By brutal I mean unintentionally. It's more out of extreme enthusiasm that people can sound demanding and pressuring.

All said and done, I just want to know if this is a thing others have noticed or if I'm just reading to deep into it (and trying to find a way to solve my perceived problem). I would love to here any opinions on this, and please bare in mind I'm not in the least trying to be inflammatory in any way, I just know i wish there was a way i could limit the contact I have with the community - which may sound selfish, but it's something I think would make me want to create more stuff: I, personally, feel a lot of pressure (and I'm not even that good a creator, nor even as necessary as the likes of some modders) from all the endless comments about "you should do this" "you should do that" "mine's not working you broke it, you're a terrible person" (I'm paraphrasing a bit - and also it's usually not working because they can't be bothered reading the description on how to work it) - it can lead to frustration and often makes me slow down on any progress I want to make.

I realise I sound incredibly whiney and I apologise so, and please ignore that side, But please give me your two cents on whether you think there is a problem in the community of being excessively enthusiastic to the point of unintended harassment.

 

[Avanya]

I've seen alot of "update for snowfall" comments around the workshop in the last 24h, which definately show that some ppl have no clue what kind of work might be needed and forget that many modders/creators have lives outside Skylines (and may live in a totally different timezone). I'm not sure we can do anything to change those ppl making that sort of comments, but what we can do it drown them in positive stuff! A few ppl nagging a creator won't matter if there's alot of "thank you"s and positive feedback. I personally try to focus on the positive comments I get on my things. Sure, some ppl would have done it differently or don't like it, but others do (and I do). Sometimes there are some good tips/advice, sometimes it's just stuff to ignore. But if those negative comments ever get to me, I go through all the positive ones to remind me that not all feel like that.

In short: I think it's very important we remember to post positive things on those assets/mods, because in general we're all more inclined to complain than give a compliment (because we're too busy enjoying ourselves with the stuff that works/we love).

 

[BadPeanut]

I've seen alot of "update for snowfall" comments around the workshop in the last 24h, which definately show that some ppl have no clue what kind of work might be needed and forget that many modders/creators have lives outside Skylines (and may live in a totally different timezone). I'm not sure we can do anything to change those ppl making that sort of comments, but what we can do it drown them in positive stuff! A few ppl nagging a creator won't matter if there's alot of "thank you"s and positive feedback. I personally try to focus on the positive comments I get on my things. Sure, some ppl would have done it differently or don't like it, but others do (and I do). Sometimes there are some good tips/advice, sometimes it's just stuff to ignore. But if those negative comments ever get to me, I go through all the positive ones to remind me that not all feel like that.

In short: I think it's very important we remember to post positive things on those assets/mods, because in general we're all more inclined to complain than give a compliment (because we're too busy enjoying ourselves with the stuff that works/we love).

I kinda wish there was an option to disable steam comments, even if it was a temporary timed lock (so you couldn't disable them altogether) but it would be incredibly handy around updating times for modders who are actively working on the update, or get the same old comments endlessly. (I realise this is a steam thing and nothing paradox or CO have any control of)

 

[KnightHawkTFC]

@StephenR
In general I don't think it's a thing. I think for the most part people leave\go dark\etc because of other issues most of them just personal\real life getting in the way, or just simple burn out on the game or lose interest, can happen easily when you're spending more time in the IDE or modeling tools than you are playing the game any more. It's a natural thing I think, and for the vast majority it's just a hobby, thankfully so many have put their source out to the world so that others can come along and more easily pick up the torch and carry on if they leave. I know I've done that specifically with that in mind as I know there will be some point in time where I'll call it quits, at least for awhile.

As for Steam comments, uggh, the ones that would annoy me the most are ones that highlight that a poster didn't even bother to read the mods description before posting, yesterday was a great example, mod authors post in desc "hey i'll be a few hours(or a day) till this mod is updated till then it will break your game" - followed by dozens of people commenting that it breaks their game,or getting mad it's not updated yet,lol. I just shake my head at that, and wish you could force someone to check a checkbox saying - yes I read the description, before posting, I'm kidding....but not really.

@Avanya has the right idea about trying to keep it positive and focus your attention toward the positive comments. I know positive comments that suggest a feature or idea for improvement go much further than "your mod is the suck unless you add x". Always feels great to read that your mod helped\solved someone's problem. Heck I leave nice comments on anything that catches my eye in workshop that I think is cool even if I'm not subbing to it or know I personally will never happen to use it, but then I guess I have more of an idea of the amount of work that goes into most of these things than the typical player.

 

[boformer]

The biggest problem I see is not the community, but the Steam Workshop system itself.

There is no way to transfer a workshop item to a different modder (or give update privilege to the modder). That's why there are so many abandoned mods and assets and duplicates like "Traffic++ V2" and "Traffic Manager xyz".

 

[Sotrax]

I will just share my opinion as a 'user', through my knowledge about creating mods ends where I see a line of code.
The majority of the people are just - silent. See this forum here, we, we are posting here, we are the loud minority. We are the hard core of the game, the freaks if you want, we can be loud and annoying to the developers of this game - and we can be annoying to the creators of mods. We annoy each others with different opinions over little things that the most user wouldn't even notice; sometimes I think some would even kill just to prove 'their opinion right'. But this is the extreme. We are not the biggest part. The majority of the people is silently enjoying this game, this is what CO is constantly trying to say us, and its the same about the mods. The majority is just silently enjoying what you all did in your freetime. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't even play C:S anymore if there were no mods and some are so essential that I would abadon if they were not supported anymore. After reading this post I feel a little guilty, because I never thanked the most of the creators of mods but shared my problems and errors if there were some. So If I estimate my comments I commented more negativ than positive. But it's not what I am thinking, I really love you all, even tho I can't show it constantly.

I know this behavior very well from my job. I am a Busdriver in Berlin and the majority of my passengers is happily enjoying their ride with this awesome driver, but there are passengers that will ask so plain dumb questions and behave so insane that you start to loose your hope for the mankind and it gets you in a really bad mood. But it's not the majority, they are like 10 a day .. out of more than 1000. Don't let the negativity get you. Life is short, life is wonderful. Take not everything to the heart. And the most important: Enjoy what you do - and the people around you will enjoy you.

 

[templeofdoom]

I'm on the forums almost daily and on other places like Reddit daily checking out things for this game and others. I usually spend a good hour checking out submissisons to the workshop as well. I don't speak for everyone but I agree with StephenR that as we move through this game since last year, I'm seeing a lot more impatient, entitled, and self serving users demanding and being entitled to things at their own pace and not the pace of the author who gave them said thing.

To boot - and this is strictly personal - I also get irked seeing everyone on forums say things like, "oh well CO didn't put 'xyz' feature in the game we'll have that in a few days because, modders". I've created some assets in my time (54 on the workshop) and the majority of these are really bad. That being said, I know how much time and effort it took to create those BAD assets let alone how much time and effort it takes a GOOD one. And this is using tools that most of us already know how to use - photoshop, etc. Modding and understanding code and developing new ways to manage functions and gameplay mechanics is another world to me and the fact people wear on their sleeves and so easily spout off, "oh modders can do that for us" really bugs me. I know a few guys and gals out there who are busting their butts to make really great mods. Sure, they may do this because they enjoy it, but the fact that the community seems to default to "oh if xyz feature isn't included we'll just bug and harass the few modders that do work on this game" and that bugs me.

I can only imagine the steps it takes to make a mod and a good working mod as well, let alone the dedication one has to have to keep them updated (as it seems more intense than updating assets) and the fact people are so quick to nominate others to fix issues seems a bit backwards to me. A bit of the 'ole, "cart before the horse" in way of rationality. I feel the several prominent modders who are extremely active and the other modders who contribute (all of which are extremely knowledgeable about the code of the game) are doing their best and we as a community should put some more onus on the developers and not the modders to make some of these long awaited things happen. I also think that modders are a huge asset to this game and it would be wise for CO to allow modders to do their things and CO/PDX to do theirs and have each group focus on things that they are strong in or what the other may not/can not / will not do.

I'm all for suggestions and offering discussion points in the community but I just wanted to point out that I agree with the OP and feel there is a lot of pressure being put on creators of this game and we see a higher proportionality of people demanding and expecting features from people who do this as a hobby and are starting do more demanding than asking for them. I don't even make mods but it bugs me knowing how much all these modders and coders of the game have do andt he work they put in (you guys know who you are) and this self-serving entitled attitude by people in the community who just CONSUME and never CONTRIBUTE gets under my skin.

Some of you will say, "But templeofdoom that's how it is and how it will always be!" I agree I guess. But I still get annoyed - just being truthful and honest about how I feel. I think @Avanaya and @Sotrax are right - all creators and everyone should be more positive and focus on positivity instead of the bad apples being toxically negative.

I'm sure people will agree and disagree but just my 2cents!

 

[boformer]

Updating mods for new game versions is usually not very hard (10mins to 1h of work). But the developers have to stay interested. Assets stay compatible so you won't notice it when the creator is gone.

Another "problem" are the constant complaints and bug reports. Helping those users is like a full-time job.
It would be great if other voluntary helpers would answer these support requests (after a short tutorial, everyone would be able to do this) and then send a DETAILED bug report to the mod developer.

 

[vortical]

There are actually several things that seem to to combining into a perfect storm of negativity.

#1. Inadequate Modding API. I'm under no impression that CO 'owes' us anything but if they want to claim the benefits of mod support (think about who all those entitled users would be bugging if the mod community was not around) then they need to keep up their end. A better documented, more robust API would allow creators to do more without having to rely on hacks that break whenever there in a major update.

#2. Ease of access. *puts on old codger hat* Back in MY day there was no fancy steam workshop. We had to go track down files ourselves and LIKE it. *takes off hat* All jokes aside, the way the workshop is set up leads to a totally different mindset. Instead of viewing mods as a fringe benefit that you get for being part of a community, the workshop makes mods feel more like optional features. So instead of being seen as a privelage, mods are looked at as 'free dlc'.

#3. Lone Wolf Modders. Yet another side effect of the 'workshop'. Not only does the steam workshop not support collaberation, I would posit that it actually DISCOURAGES it. There is no 'github' style framework where modders can contribute to the work of others. Not even a dedicated place where modders can come together to discuss ideas. So what we have are massive projects, critical to many people's enjoyment of the game, that rest completely on the shoulders of a single modder. So when that one person burns out or simply doesn't have time to keep up, you end up with a dead project and a lot of angry users.