Consequences of Hero rework for the balance of Tomes

[Stupid_Dragon]

This had been on my mind for a while.

The hero rework is overall a major success, but it did affect the dynamics between the tomes somewhat.

The prime example of this is T5 tomes ofcourse. These hero skills were a significant part of their power package, the rift between T5 tomes widened as a result. Archmage and Creator still good, it was just a nice cherry on top for them. For Eternal Lords the hero skill was literally a namesake, might as well rename it to Tome of True Death Magic now. Goddess of Nature always felt like lacking content compared to other T5, and now more than ever.

It's not just about T5 though, it noticeably affected T1 tomes too. Tome of Evolution – major reason to get it was Shepherd skill, which had been, well, you know. Similar case for Horde. Similar case for Beasts.
Then Alchemy and Faith, and any Tome that used to give a free action support ability to heroes. Similarly Fertility, although that one wasn't a free action.
And I vaguely remember someone making a point for Tentacles as a starting Tome based on the hero skill being an free extra Conjure Tentacle, which is now moot.

I could probably make a case for several other Tomes like Astral Mirror and the Chaos one that used to give Demonic Anthem, but I think that's enough. It's already a miracle that I remember so many of them, and a testament that they weren't inconsequential at all.

Thoughts?
Mostly I want to hear other's opinions whether the balance had been skewed too much or it's just an acceptable fluctiation to you?
To me it feels like it had hit underwhelming tomes the most, rendering them unpickable.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Goddess of Nature is the tome of "Units never die" if you've done the plant major transformation. It's a solid win condition tome.

 

[Cr0wT41ks]

If nothing changes in the new class system, then we can simply add the missing functionality of tomes through the item crafting system.

Currently, item crafting is a system isolated from other gameplay elements, which is bad, and tomes do absolutely nothing for items, except for the transmutation tome. In addition, if you do not take the Reclaimers trait, the forge opens quite late and requires too much luck in terms of available materials, and it is easy to forget about it.

I would suggest linking the two systems so that tomes can unlock new abilities and qualities for items, and make magic materials a bonus, for example one that makes crafting cheaper, rather than determining it completely.

T5 tomes could unlock especially strong properties of items, as well as unique items thematically related to the culmination of a given affinity.

But all of these are just poorly thought out ideas.

The hero rework simply further increased the requirements for both items that complement the build and tomes that unlock the desired affinities. It would be logical to combine the two systems, and this requires a new rework.

 

[Lebkuchenhausmeister]

The combined balance of tomes, unit type tags, and imperium tree upgrades needs more work. Some stuff has become extremely simple, like building armies with high critical hit chance, and summoning builds. While builds that focus on specific units types, like elementals, animals, constructs, evolving units, fall short in comparison. Just compare astral overdrive and the eternal earth enchantments. I think I have never picked tome of the creator, when I had also access to the tome of the arch mage, its just no competition.

 

[seperamos]

I'm not sure if the t5 tomes are meant to be generalist game winning tomes for all tome paths, or if we're supposed to pick a specific tome path for each affinity, and then t5 would be its endgame capstone. T5 should be the goal for every gamewinning tome path, but it seems like some tome paths have more synergy with the t5 tomes than others.

I'd like to see the t5 tomes have roughly equivalent power in types of spells and their endgame potential, but through different thematic means. I think more t5 tomes can empower different thematic tome paths, but it would conserve resources to keep them vague and powerful capstones of their respective affinities. No t5 should be clearly more powerful than the others, otherwise the infamous "minmax" and optimization skew in multiplayer veers clearly in their direction. Astral should not be the clear capstone of choice.

For example, I'd like to see different t5 tomes in Order for Healer, Crusader, and Tyrant. Tome of the God Emperoror could remain the more generalist t5 tome, or focus on the theme of tyranny to enhance Order heroes and related monarchy or aristocracy buffs and debuffs. T5 tome for the Healer could take Mass revive or have an empowered mass revive, battlemap buffs with support magic, world map spells, increased resistance and/or defense, etc. T5 tome of the Crusader caps an offensive build started from Tome of Zeal and takes mass Condemnation, empowers melee heroes and units, provides battlemap buffs or debuffs, and could provide a Paladin knight type unit to be similiar to tyrant knights for TOTGH. This would be a good tome to pick if casualties were not a concern and against Fiend type tome paths.

For Chaos affinity, as the direct punching bag of Order, they need a special means to counter Order to keep with asymmetrical balance requirements. Their t5 tome would have to keep up with Order, or could be split into 3 t5 tomes concepts: tome of fiends, tome of pyromaniacs, tome of war or "the warrior". The post has run too long, so I'd like to see how others would give chaos a good counter with 2 of the 3 paths mentioned. Fiends could be most thematic and generally strong, but very vulnerable to Crusader path.

 

[Mammoet]

I'm undecided yet. And the fact that you can name so many means that maybe it's not that bad? Since so many got hit I mean. And in return we did get the affinity skills... but they definitely feel less connected to the actual tomes you pick and they're not a full replacement.

I also don't know what the solution is. The suggestion to unlock stuff for item crafting is interesting though.

 

[Stupid_Dragon]

Goddess of Nature is the tome of "Units never die" if you've done the plant major transformation. It's a solid win condition tome.

I mean, by that logic any tome with revive is a win condition. But then again all GG spells are presumably balanced with one's ability to have enough tactical cast points. And, in case of Mass Revive spells, enemy's ability to counter them with things like Final Banishment or corpse consumption. And IIRC putting units over corpses works too.

My main issue with Goddess of Nature though is that it only basically has two things - Mass Revive and Force of Nature. They are good, I'm not suggesting to buff them. I just want there to be something else of value.

 

[Lord Sheogorath]

My theory is that the devs decoupled the tomes from hero skills because the game is getting more and more tomes and several skills that are very similar to each other are beginning to appear.

For example the tome of faith gave a free action 15 (IIRC) hp heal/cleanse and the tome of the fey mist gave a free action 10 hp heal/2 buffs. There was no reason not to take one or both of these skills no matter the build.

Also the tome of pyromancy wildfire ascension skill and tome of calamity desecrator skill are similar to each other, and to the mage skill tree cascading evocation.

Before not every tome had an SPI but every tome came with a skill. So the devs disconnected the two, and in doing so creating anomalies like the tome of the cleansing flame giving heroes a passive, while no other tome does.

 

[Stupid_Dragon]

And the fact that you can name so many means that maybe it's not that bad?

My take is Tomes with good skills tended to have mediocre Hero perks, while Tomes with good Hero perks tended to have mediocre skills. If you remove Hero perks from the equation then, well, you get my point.

I don't really worry that Pyromancy/Cryomancy/Evocation/Root/Zeal lost the hero skills, because the skills didn't feel all that important in the whole package. Similarly I don't worry about Tome of Warding losing the hero skill because that skill was horrible to begin with. I only went over Tomes that weren't that great to begin with but had hero skill as a silver lining. Except Alchemy which I just decided to mention along with Faith.

I also don't know what the solution is. The suggestion to unlock stuff for item crafting is interesting though.

Personally, now that hero skills are gone I think every Tome should have an SPI, but I understand that it's totally unrealistic.
Unlocking stuff for item crafting does sound quite interesting.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I mean, by that logic any tome with revive is a win condition. But then again all GG spells are presumably balanced with one's ability to have enough tactical cast points. And, in case of Mass Revive spells, enemy's ability to counter them with things like Final Banishment or corpse consumption. And IIRC putting units over corpses works too.

My main issue with Goddess of Nature though is that it only basically has two things - Mass Revive and Force of Nature. They are good, I'm not suggesting to buff them. I just want there to be something else of value.

That's the thing though, both of those things are so good that their description basically reads "win the game" because you basically can't lose battles any more unless your opponent has a specific hard counter to them or you were so far behind they couldn't save you.

And most of the T5s have solid win condition powers in them. (I'd argue Materium maybe doesn't but the tramsute/golden realm "capitalism goes brrr" unit printer came online with T4 tomes).

 

[Blanch Warren]

Hero skill for cavalry kind of brought tome of beasts together.

 

[seperamos]

Unlimited mass revival of units during a single battle is incredibly overpowered. Casting points have to matter for such powerful AOE spells, and conquering ancient wonders or researching certain tomes should be different avenues to obtain increased casting points to near parity to Astral's regular caps. The players with the most casting points in any battle have the most options available to them. This could be an additional win condition sought by players of any affinity concentration.

There has to be similiar costs or counters to revivals, reanimations, remakings (of plants and elementals, constructs), or ethereal rechargings (possible future astral type of revival for forms that convert them to astral wisps, puppets?). Chaos and Order-Crusader can bring permanent death to units with cleansing flames, or possibly Infernal Flames in a future fiend focused dlc. Shadow with umbral, void, or undead/ice spells could do the same, Astral could turn enemy dead to one time wisps or energy puppets (or a source of casting points), materium could turn dead units to permanent statues or resources (mana/gold) or expanding on Distruption, and Nature can, if it does not already, bring true death by turning enemy units to fertilizer, entwined, or food sources with specific spells.

It is very much possible to balance mass revive for each affinity.

 

[Nephila]

I think the tomes need a balance overhaul regardless.

One suggestion; each tier 5 tome grants a really cool/interesting unit enchantment for some combination of godir/hero/mythic units (sometimes just one). Tier 5 often felt like they lacked a little umph and style

 

[GloatingSwine]

Unlimited mass revival of units during a single battle is incredibly overpowered. Casting points have to matter for such powerful AOE spells, and conquering ancient wonders or researching certain tomes should be different avenues to obtain increased casting points to near parity to Astral's regular caps. The players with the most casting points in any battle have the most options available to them. This could be an additional win condition sought by players of any affinity concentration.

It's incredibly powerful, but coming from a tier 5 tome not overpowered because "win the game unless you run into a hardcounter" is the sort of power tier 5 tomes should have. They're the thing you spend your time building towards, you probably only take one in a normal length game, and probably took several other tome choices on your way towards which enable them to become "win the game" powerful.

Things aren't overpowered just because they're powerful, but because they warp the gameplay for too little cost. (ie. Cleansing Flame just turning fire off as a mechanic you have to worry about as a pick effect on a tier 3 tome is too much.)

 

[seperamos]

It's incredibly powerful, but coming from a tier 5 tome not overpowered because "win the game unless you run into a hardcounter" is the sort of power tier 5 tomes should have. They're the thing you spend your time building towards, you probably only take one in a normal length game, and probably took several other tome choices on your way towards which enable them to become "win the game" powerful.

Things aren't overpowered just because they're powerful, but because they warp the gameplay for too little cost. (ie. Cleansing Flame just turning fire off as a mechanic you have to worry about as a pick effect on a tier 3 tome is too much.)

I agree, cleansing flames is too powerful to be a t3 tome. Something like that would be part of a good t5 Crusader tome. Or least t4 on a tome that high on the Crusader path.

T5 should be a decisive advantage, but the game isn't automatically over once it's reached. The throne city and ruler must be destroyed, or the magic/score victory achieved.

 

[Stupid_Dragon]

One suggestion; each tier 5 tome grants a really cool/interesting unit enchantment for some combination of godir/hero/mythic units (sometimes just one). Tier 5 often felt like they lacked a little umph and style

Tome of Eternal Lords for Ethereal + Undead
Tome of Creator for Constructs + Undead, and once next DLC hits for Giants as well.
Tome of Chaos Lords for Fiends + Dragons
And Tome of God Emperor keeps the Zeal/Faithful gimmick, just make Faithful part of Celestial package so Mass Revive could affects Mythic units like Shrine of Smiting.

 

[seperamos]

Tome of Eternal Lords for Ethereal + Undead
Tome of Creator for Constructs + Undead, and once next DLC hits for Giants as well.
Tome of Chaos Lords for Fiends + Dragons
And Tome of God Emperor keeps the Zeal/Faithful gimmick, just make Faithful part of Celestial package so Mass Revive could affects Mythic units like Shrine of Smiting.

Wouldn't this give undead tag more synergy/access to t5 tomes than others tags currently in game?

 

[Stupid_Dragon]

Wouldn't this give undead tag more synergy/access to t5 tomes than others tags currently in game?

Yes, but, well, as long as it would fit the theme it's not necessarily a bad thing. Not a fan of how your major transformation basically cements your T5 tome, or how using anything Magic Origin means Archmage.

 

[seperamos]

Yes, but, well, as long as it would fit the theme it's not necessarily a bad thing. Not a fan of how your major transformation basically cements your T5 tome, or how using anything Magic Origin means Archmage.

It might be easier to keep the t5 tome to be strong, nearly game-winning, general representations of the theme that can fit into most mono affinity builds. I see major transformations as molding custom factions into complete fantasy archetypes, drastically changing Hero and unit appearances to fit their chosen affinity theme. This could be better left to t4 tomes, while minor transformations can start anywhere from t1-t2-3. They should be thematic to their affinity but possible to combo or synergize with other affinity tomes. Any time a major transformation is picked, the faction enshrined the affinity's strengths and weaknesses, gaining power but reducing options.

I can see 3 themes with Shadow currently: undead, of which vampires and lost wizards can play a major role in the future. With the subthemes of zombies, which could be still living units under the thrall of the undead, and skeletal units. Frostlings, which can emphasize current elemental traits or perhaps northern barbarians encouraging survival of the fittest. These 2 should get a major transformation of their own. The third would be Umbral spawn, and that might need more love to compare against the other two.

Each of these themes could, and may already have, a t4 tome dedication to their major transform, and additional spells that enhance the theme the player chose for their faction, with t5 granting general buffs regardless of the t4 tomes picked. What do you think about these suggestions?

 

[Legemeton]

undead, of which vampires and lost wizards can play a major role in the future

Before it gets more confusing, Lost Wizards aren't related to the undead, they're just Eldritch Sovereigns that failed a few too many Wisdom checks. Thematically, their most representative affinities are a mix of Astral and Shadow, given the appearance of Eldritch Sovereigns in the Eldritch Realms DLC, which is themed around the Umbral Abyss.

What do you think about these suggestions?

A rebalance or rework of the T5 tomes could make them more general as win conditions, as some of them really demands you to focus on one specific theme out of multiple within that affinity's tomes. See Shadow having both Necromancy and Cryomancy, but Eternal Lord only supporting the former; meanwhile, Goddess of Nature supports multiple paths from the Nature tomes in its enchantment (Animal, Plant, Fey and Dragon) and world spell (Forests).