CORE questions

[unmerged(51324)]

#1 Please name just 3 changes to DD that your mod achieves and that are 100% absolutely historically correct.

#2 Which, if any, of these changes necessitate a fundamental change to the game system (e.g., the standard game reflects approximately 1000 men per mp point)?

Thanks.

 

[Brasidas]

It's a game. "100% absolute historical accuracy" would preclude user-manipulation. There are no rocket-troops or heavy tank divisions.

The game engine dictates what changes are possible, just as in the case of your discussions at TRP. Manpower representation is not, in my opinion, a fundamental change. Separating divisions into 2-brigade and 3-brigade variants is.

That's one of the primary differences that I've noticed with this mod (the modelling of binary vs trinary division size). A couple of others include restricting the ability of countries to produce industry in the early game and a generally more complicated and divergent tech tree.

 

[unmerged(51324)]

It's a game. "100% absolute historical accuracy" would preclude user-manipulation. There are no rocket-troops or heavy tank divisions.

The game engine dictates what changes are possible, just as in the case of your discussions at TRP. Manpower representation is not, in my opinion, a fundamental change. Separating divisions into 2-brigade and 3-brigade variants is.

That's one of the primary differences that I've noticed with this mod. A couple of others include restricting the ability of countries to produce industry in the early game and a generally more complicated and divergent tech tree.

The programmer determines what changes are possible, just as much as the user determines what is a game. However, the falacious and somewhat rude TOTAL REALISM project comparison is a poor reply, as it is possible to mod the exe as well - they simply can't or wont. Never the less, it is possible to make the game 100% accurate with regard to changes - OOB, for example. Perhaps the size of the divisions are not 100% accurate, but that is in the details. What I was politely asking was what changes does CORE make that are 100% accurate in terms of context, albeit there may yet be inaccuracies as noted in the previous example.

 

[Brasidas]

The programmer determines what changes are possible, just as much as the user determines what is a game. However, the falacious and somewhat rude TOTAL REALISM project comparison is a poor reply, as it is possible to mod the exe as well - they simply can't or wont. Never the less, it is possible to make the game 100% accurate with regard to changes - OOB, for example. Perhaps the size of the divisions are not 100% accurate, but that is in the details. What I was politely asking was what changes does CORE make that are 100% accurate in terms of context, albeit there may yet be inaccuracies as noted in the previous example.

Programming rarely comes into play with Paradox mods. Event scripting, plotting out tech trees, choosing OOBs, and general gamebalancing at most require an understanding of boolean algebra - you don't even need to know what a for-loop is.

There are a handful of cases where .exe hacks exist for Paradox games, even in the mods with the greatest levels of support and effort you are unlikely to find one that does more than apply the NTL patch. The level of overhaul of game mechanics that you frequently proposed on the TRP forums was implausible, yet you continued to discuss specific features after they were identified as such.

The particular post of yours that comes to mind is

You or otherwise HoI programmers can't designate partisans in enemy territory as allies? Where there's a will, there's a way. A programmer friend once told me that you can program anything. Its just a matter of how and how much time/money it takes to do it.

Paradox isn't a fan of folks decompiling the game and "fundamentally" altering it. There are exported values that form the basis of modding, which are found in the \db\ directory. These include "ai" files that dictate the behaviour of non-player controlled countries, the OOBs and available resources for given countries, and profiles of technologies and units. That is pretty much the sum total of anything that's going to change in a mod.

Since I haven't seen you around very much lately, I thought that I would bring such mod characteristics to your attention to avoid later confusion by yourself or any newbies reading over the thread.

 

[MateDow]

#1 Please name just 3 changes to DD that your mod achieves and that are 100% absolutely historically correct.

- CORE has altered the OOB files from Vanilla. These are based on the most accurate information from the time period that we have been able to find. While I won't say that they are 100% accurate, I will say that they are the best that we can do with the information that we have found.

- The tech trees have been completely redesigned. The trees allow the player to make historically viable decisions about the country that they have chosen to play. If you as the player (or the AI) takes a path that isn't historical, the new trees won't be 100% historically accurate either, but the historical choices are available.

- The naval models have been redone to accomodate historical ship types. Some of these are older models than were included in Vanilla, and some are more modern. There is probably always going to be discussions about whether one stat or the other can be tweaked, but once again, I feel confident in saying that it is very close to historically accurate, and about as well as can be done with the limitations we operate under.

#2 Which, if any, of these changes necessitate a fundamental change to the game system (e.g., the standard game reflects approximately 1000 men per mp point)?

Thanks.

I am not sure what you mean by "fundamental change to the game system." The new tech trees, units and other changes make for a very different game than playing Vanilla. If you mean changes to the program itself, there have been no changes of that nature.

 

[MateDow]

The programmer determines what changes are possible, just as much as the user determines what is a game.

In this case, Paradox determines what we can and can't modify in the game. As was pointed out we have changed much of the data that the game uses; country OOBs, tech trees, unit models. We have not (and will not) make changes which are not supported by the software released by Paradox through their original releases and patches that they release.

However, the falacious and somewhat rude TOTAL REALISM project comparison is a poor reply, as it is possible to mod the exe as well - they simply can't or wont.

This is a case of won't. For one thing, there are certain copyright laws that apply to software. Paradox is considerate enough to give us the tools that allow modding to be possible. There are many software companies that do no give those tools. I am grateful for the support that Paradox has giving the modding community.

If there are changes that you would like to have made to the program itself, there are a number of threads where you can make those suggestions.

Never the less, it is possible to make the game 100% accurate with regard to changes - OOB, for example. Perhaps the size of the divisions are not 100% accurate, but that is in the details. What I was politely asking was what changes does CORE make that are 100% accurate in terms of context, albeit there may yet be inaccuracies as noted in the previous example.

Our goal is to make the game as accurate as possible. There is balancing that is done to accommodate gameplay, but those are very rare. Please feel free to download our mod and play. If there are inaccuracies, please report them either on this forum or on our offsite forum. The developers will review your report and incorperate corrections that are needed.

 

[unmerged(51324)]

Programming rarely comes into play with Paradox mods. Event scripting, plotting out tech trees, choosing OOBs, and general gamebalancing at most require an understanding of boolean algebra - you don't even need to know what a for-loop is.

There are a handful of cases where .exe hacks exist for Paradox games, even in the mods with the greatest levels of support and effort you are unlikely to find one that does more than apply the NTL patch. The level of overhaul of game mechanics that you frequently proposed on the TRP forums was implausible, yet you conntinued to discuss specific features after they were identified as such.

The particular post of yours that comes to mind is



Paradox isn't a fan of folks decompiling the game and "fundamentally" altering it. There are exported values that form the basis of modding, which are found in the \db\ directory. These include "ai" files that dictate the behaviour of non-player controlled countries, the OOBs and available resources for given countries, and profiles of technologies and units. That is pretty much the sum total of anything that's going to change in a mod.

Since I haven't seen you around very much lately, I thought that I would bring such mod characteristics to your attention to avoid later confusion by yourself or any newbies reading over the thread.

How rich! LOL - a conversation from a year ago! I DON'T CARE WHAT HANGUPS YOU HAD THEN AND NOW. Yes, I discussed "REALISM", and for the 10th time - SO WHAT?! "Oh, well, you can't mod that - you newbie - how dare you waste precious forum subject and thread relevance and FORCE me to answer you". Well, gag me with a flippin' ladel. Did I discuss themes? NO. Yet, I still have absolutely NO PROBLEM doing so. I asked a very simple question (And, yes, I realize precious egos and territoriality are at stake. I realize there are so-called "modder pragmatics". I never claimed to be interested in any of that, or even modding necessarily. Only the subject of realism, ultimately. (childish nonsense!)

 

[unmerged(51324)]

error...

 

[JRCCrow]

?????

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish it almost seems to read as though the only objective is to cause conflict. In any case, I would like to axpress my personal gratitude to the core team. the efforts they have put into this game are increadable and an intense amount of dedication and thought has gone into it.
Thank you core team members where ever you are

 

[Brasidas]

How rich! LOL - a conversation from a year ago! I DON'T CARE WHAT HANGUPS YOU HAD THEN AND NOW. Yes, I discussed "REALISM", and for the 10th time - SO WHAT?! "Oh, well, you can't mod that - you newbie - how dare you waste precious forum subject and thread relevance and FORCE me to answer you". Well, gag me with a flippin' ladel. Did I discuss themes? NO. Yet, I still have absolutely NO PROBLEM doing so. I asked a very simple question (And, yes, I realize precious egos and territoriality are at stake. I realize there are so-called "modder pragmatics". I never claimed to be interested in any of that, or even modding necessarily. Only the subject of realism, ultimately. (childish nonsense!)

I believe that everything that I posted has been meaningful and appropriate. I answered your question fully and explained the limits of modding for both your own benefit and that of newcomers.

My citation of one of your previous posts was not meant as a denigration of your character or some other form of slight against you, it was an attempt to draw a contrast between some of your criticisms of the base version of the game and what may be addressed by a mod. Since your criticisms, both of mods and of this base version, have frequently been related to game mechanics rather than such features as those that may actually be modded I felt this to be appropriate.

I have never accused you of wasting anyone's time. If you are drawing that from my comment that "you continued to discuss specific features after they were identified" as implausible, I was simply stating a fact. I used this for the purposes of outlining what can and can not be done in a modification to the game.

I'm actually a fairly relaxed person. I can't think of a single person in either my day-to-day persona or my online correspondence who would accuse me of being "egotistical" or "territorial". I ask questions, I admit when I'm wrong, and I enjoy constructive discussion. I never feel "forced" to answer you or anyone else that I see posting in forums.

If you would care to take a peek around, you would notice that I have been a frequent poster in neither the TRP nor CORE forums. I've followed both mods development and have registered on both of their private boards, but I have no personal stake in defending or attacking them. In reference to the past relationship between myself and yourself, I believe that any third party would consider my behaviour to have been entirely civil and that your own behaviour towards me has been, up until this thread, fairly civil as well.

...In any case, I would like to axpress my personal gratitude to the core team. the efforts they have put into this game are increadable and an intense amount of dedication and thought has gone into it.
Thank you core team members where ever you are

I'll echo Crow's closing comments. I was concerned with the ambition of the first release of CORE 2.0, with such a long development cycle. But at this point I'm fairly confident that the end-product will be as enjoyable and appreciated as the late-stage versions of CORE 1.0 was.

 

[unmerged(51324)]

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish it almost seems to read as though the only objective is to cause conflict.

THIS is conflict - and harassment in the face of the OBVIOUS. Do I need a seal of approval before I ask a GD question? It was a simple question ONLY - GET IT? Same goes for Brasidas.

 

[unmerged(51324)]

- CORE has altered the OOB files from Vanilla. These are based on the most accurate information from the time period that we have been able to find. While I won't say that they are 100% accurate, I will say that they are the best that we can do with the information that we have found.

Am I able to apply ONLY the researched 1936 OOB files from CORE into the standard game, and not somehow disable the standard game's functionality? IOW, if it is possible to insert files specific to OOB alone, would they somehow disrupt the Tech trees or AI or both in the standard DD?

P.S. I ask this as I am formulating (in my mind) which aspects of the standard game can be brought to near 100% accuracy and realism within the constructs of the game's system, and as it pertains to combat, industry, etc. Many mods attempt to change the system at what appears to be an arbitrary level of activity - either through changing the MP from something other than what it serves in terms of ratios, economics in terms of resources and their role, combat and its principles - such that the modder "feels" like its realistic (which is of course meaningless). Thank you.
.

 

[Ghost_dk]

It wont be possible to transfer the CORE OOB to the regular HoI game since CORE unit structure and model setup does not match the one used in the regular version.

 

[Ghost_dk]

P.S. I ask this as I am formulating (in my mind) which aspects of the standard game can be brought to near 100% accuracy and realism within the constructs of the game's system, and as it pertains to combat, industry, etc. Many mods attempt to change the system at what appears to be an arbitrary level of activity - either through changing the MP from something other than what it serves in terms of ratios, economics in terms of resources and their role, combat and its principles - such that the modder "feels" like its realistic (which is of course meaningless). Thank you.
.

Actually I dont think that making the standard game much more realistic without making some additional abstraction or modification to the games moddable functions is possible, because no matter which part of the game system you choose to focus on the overall simplicity choosen to portrait the given subsystem lacks the debts to properly show the different use and organisation that existed between the various countries in every field.

CORE strives to modify the game within its limitations and without modifying the exe itself. The result is a mod that to us and many others feels very different from the standard game and hopefully gives our users an increased enjoyment of the game through the many ways that we have choosen to rework or adjust the moddable functions of the game to portrait our perception of a more realistic game. The process is by no means finished and we are only just now switching to supporting the additional possiblities that DD offers over Regular HoI. it is a process that will last a long time still before we even consider calling it a finished mod and as such I can only ask of you to have patience or join the effort to work on the mod with suggestions or script within the limitations that CORE has set for itself.

If you would like to know more about the principles that CORE is based upon I would encourage you to join the CORE addicts usergroup at www.terranova.dk and take a look at the first issue of the CORE Newsletter which has a whole section dedicated to just that.

If you feel that you are able to provide constructive feedback to us regarding our mod within the constraints that we have listed in the principles, then you are more then welcome to.

If you dont feel that the tools CORE has choosen to work with in our effort to improve the game are sufficient, then CORE is probably not the mod for you and you might be better off trying to mod it to your image of realism yourself or find others who feel the same way as you.

 

[Black_Shade]

THIS is conflict - and harassment in the face of the OBVIOUS. Do I need a seal of approval before I ask a GD question? It was a simple question ONLY - GET IT? Same goes for Brasidas.

While it was a question, your response to his answer(s), and your response to the previous post, shows that you have really no intention of a civil discussion about the game. If you are angry that people wont do things in the mod, then do them yourself. If your not angry (it seems like your VERY angry, for pretty much no reason), I suggest you choose your words better. Pretty much everything you wrote has a negative connotation, and your tone is extremely condescending and arguementative.

Im surprised the people here even bothered to attempt to answer your questions, especially since they knew your history over on the TRP board. If you ask a question, you should be prepared to recieve an answer you don't like. Otherwise, don't bother asking the question. While you might disagree with what people are doing in their mods (such as TRP), you shouldnt degrade them because they aren't catering to your exact needs, they are doing it for theirs. I dont see any of your work on the game floating around for others to pick apart and nitpic.

 

[JRCCrow]

THIS is conflict - and harassment in the face of the OBVIOUS. Do I need a seal of approval before I ask a GD question? It was a simple question ONLY - GET IT? Same goes for Brasidas.

Like I said was not sure or clear what was going on, tried to clarify that, but my gramatics arn't up to par with that of politicians. None the less, I can make the assumption if you like that the objective was in true spirit. It appearse as thought you are getting irate with the CAPITOLISATIONS and verbage that you are using, again not face to face so I could be wrong.
In the end I fail to see how anyone could fault people who have put so much into something for so little. Their dedication to improvement is without fault and true to heart. You will never get anything better than that from anyone. Even if you pay for it. Nothing can ever be 100% perfect. Even "Historically correct" is open to debait as the definitions and possibilities are endless given the scope that is being covered in the game. What is true for one country and time frame can easily change bye given examples.
In short the starting question #1 and #2 that you asked are impossible to answer without opening a debait and phrased in a manner that seems to confrentationaly challenge the person who is ment to answer. Perhaps not what you were going for to be fair. Thus is the problems of communication of this type. Much is left to misunderstanding.
I only wish I had the knowledge and ability to pitch in and help out.

Take your time guys, I'll wait till I die and still think your the best.

 

[unmerged(24102)]

Take your time guys, I'll wait till I die and still think your the best.

Beautifully formulated!
I'll do the same.

 

[Epaminondas]

Given the heat that's being generated here I hasten to note that this is not intended as a criticism of your advocating changes to produce greater historical accuracy, Maat. But I think perhaps your starting from a faulty premise - that is, that it is ever going to be possible to attain 100% historical accuracy.

History doesn't work that way. It is only ever a limited reconstruction of circumstances and events selected for the particular meaning they have to a particular audience. If you visit the CORE site you will see this in action. Posters there are continually contributing information on additional events and circumstances that are meaningful to them and all (or at least most) of these contributions are historically accurate. But not all can be accommodated in the concise form required by the game platform - or indeed by human comprehension.

The result is a very active debate on which elements should be retained and which need to be sacrificed. If you're interested in joining that debate I'm sure you'd be welcome.

 

[dec152000]

Hi,

To go back to the original question of what 3 things have we done:

1) The economic model that serves as the base for the game is completely revised to include applicable effects caused by the Depression (or lack of them for some economies). We are in the process of further refining the IC and Resource model, though this has not been completed for the 0.22 release.

2) The unit structure has been revised to better model the differences between national organizations and equipment rather than claiming that doctrinal differences model this area. This includes things like Infantry type division sizes and quality plus naval unit models.

3) All of the tech trees are completely rebuilt to emphasize the historical options and cost/benefit associated with policy choices. Some tech choices will hurt you in the long run so blidly researching everything possible is not always a good idea anymore.

mm

 

[JRCCrow]

Shwing !!