Could the pre-Colombian Americans reach Renaissance level of tech without Europe meddling ?

[Narwhal]

The question is in the title indeed.

Let's assume Europe never existed. Given enough time, could the American civilization reach the same level of tech as the Europeans did in 1492 or was there a "missing link" in Americas (horses ? some metals or resources ? ...) that made it impossible to ever go beyond some level of technology ?

 

[The-Doc]

It's possible that the level of geographic and cultural isolation would have precluded that. After all consider how long humans have existed and how the rate of technological progress has been anything but constant. What has allowed for a general leap over the course of several millennia has been the continuity of contact between civilizations from the Mediterranean across to China. If you look at more isolated areas, the level of innovation is a lot more static.

 

[bz249]

It's possible that the level of geographic and cultural isolation would have precluded that. After all consider how long humans have existed and how the rate of technological progress has been anything but constant. What has allowed for a general leap over the course of several millennia has been the continuity of contact between civilizations from the Mediterranean across to China. If you look at more isolated areas, the level of innovation is a lot more static.

Was seafaring possible in the Gulf of Mexico? Because the protected Med and later the Baltic helped a lot to learn how to build sturdy enough ships which allowed long range trade.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

It's possible that the level of geographic and cultural isolation would have precluded that. After all consider how long humans have existed and how the rate of technological progress has been anything but constant. What has allowed for a general leap over the course of several millennia has been the continuity of contact between civilizations from the Mediterranean across to China. If you look at more isolated areas, the level of innovation is a lot more static.

Yes, but there was notable progress and change in Mesoamerica. At a slower pace indeed but there is nothing preventing them to reach European 1492 levels of technology within the next 5000 years.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Was seafaring possible in the Gulf of Mexico? Because the protected Med and later the Baltic helped a lot to learn how to build sturdy enough ships which allowed long range trade.

The Incas had ships and some seatrade.

 

[Wixelt]

The Incas had ships and some seatrade.

The Incas didn’t have access to the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

The Incas didn’t have access to the Gulf of Mexico.

Yes captain obvious but his general point was about ship making and long range trade.

 

[DarthJF]

Yes, but there was notable progress and change in Mesoamerica. At a slower pace indeed but there is nothing preventing them to reach European 1492 levels of technology within the next 5000 years.

Yeah, and over time the issue of distance would have lessened. More innovation leads to better farm output -> more population -> populations spread out -> more communities with more contacts among each other -> innovation accelerates.

 

[bz249]

Yes captain obvious but his general point was about ship making and long range trade.

The Gulf of Mexico is of course better because you can access more stuff there. but yeah it was more about the general possibility of maritime trade without spanish galleons

 

[Pyoro]

America is just so darn huge. Why innovate if you have plenty of space and food and can just move elsewhere?

But, yeah, hard to imagine that somehow it'd never have happened. Just needs some sort of kick off event, probably. Someone coming up with something, or some external events (climate change or whatever), who knows. But don't think there's anything the Americas lack in terms of natural resources that exists in Eurasia that'd be absolutely required to get things going.

 

[Iche_Bins]

Then again, central america was apparently much denser populated then was assumed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ousands-of-newly-discovered-structures-reveal

 

[Herbert West]

America is just so darn huge. Why innovate if you have plenty of space and food and can just move elsewhere?

Because the pattern of the two-three contender civilisations is not that? The three South/Mesoamerican societies were all capable of building and sustaining massive cities. There is nothing that suggests that inherently, they had to remain less developed than then were in 1492. Indeed, during that time of european contact, the Aztecs were on an upward slope, building an empire, and the Maya almost recovered from their massive collapse.

 

[yerm]

The Incan societal setup was pretty decent, in my opinion even comparable to Roman. Isolation or not I would expect that Andean region to make somewhat consistent progress over time, even if slower due to the smaller pool of innovation due to isolation.

Central America I think has some issues. The massive untamed north just naturally funnels downward so that migrations pummel it. The Aztecs were themselves an outside invader relatively recently before the Spanish. It does not strike me as a stable area.

Truth be told I think the most potential would have been up with groups like the Lenape. The geography of the eastern USA is comparable to China in quality. The Hudson, Delaware, and Chesapeake bays + corresponding rivers are ideal, the soil is good, fish and whale is plentiful nearby to encourage sailing. The problem is they got hit before they could really settle down with the new crops they had JUST recently brought up. They needed a few hundred years to multiply. If they had, I consider the Iriquois about the best society/government structure in human history NOT connected to the silk road. I think they'd have done well.

 

[Abdul Goatherd]

Was seafaring possible in the Gulf of Mexico? Because the protected Med and later the Baltic helped a lot to learn how to build sturdy enough ships which allowed long range trade.

Yes. Caribs did plenty of it.

 

[LordTempest]

I doubt it. If the Americans were left to develop on their own they would have developed along a different technological path than Europe due to the lack of metals, horses etc. They may have grown into advanced nations with sophisticated, post-Renaissance knowledge of mathematics, anatomy and the sciences, but without metallurgy they'd never be able to develop into what we might call an "all-round" Reanaissance tech level on their own.

Furthermore, there would be no incentive for any non-Arctic American tribe to develop the technology necessary for intercontinental trade: in OTL the Age of Discovery was kickstarted by Europeans who thought they could reach the East by sailing West; even if the Inca for example developed a strong seafaring tradition and the means to build ocean-going ships, there would be no reason for them to sail Westward and trade with China if they had no foreknowledge that China (or indeed any other Non-American civilisation) even existed.

 

[AegonVLLI]

I doubt it. If the Americans were left to develop on their own they would have developed along a different technological path than Europe due to the lack of metals, horses etc. They may have grown into advanced nations with sophisticated, post-Renaissance knowledge of mathematics, anatomy and the sciences, but without metallurgy they'd never be able to develop into what we might call an "all-round" Reanaissance tech level on their own.

And why wouldn't they develop advanced metallurgy? There is nothing stopping them.
Horses are an issue, but not an unsurmountable one, in my opinion...

Furthermore, there would be no incentive for any non-Arctic American tribe to develop the technology necessary for intercontinental trade: in OTL the Age of Discovery was kickstarted by Europeans who thought they could reach the East by sailing West; even if the Inca for example developed a strong seafaring tradition and the means to build ocean-going ships, there would be no reason for them to sail Westward and trade with China if they had no foreknowledge that China (or indeed any other Non-American civilisation) even existed.

The same was true for the vikings and they still sailed west.
It would take more time, but to think that even technologically advanced nations would forever just sit in the Americas and do nothing seems very strange to me.

 

[The-Doc]

Yes, but there was notable progress and change in Mesoamerica. At a slower pace indeed but there is nothing preventing them to reach European 1492 levels of technology within the next 5000 years.

With a few millennia you'd think so, barring major ecological or social collapse. But then I don't think we can assume a general law of human technological progress, given the vast span of distinctly human existence and the relatively few points in that span where civilization manages to stick and increase in sophistication.

 

[AegonVLLI]

With a few millennia you'd think so, barring major ecological or social collapse. But then I don't think we can assume a general law of human technological progress, given the vast span of distinctly human existence and the relatively few points in that span where civilization manages to stick and increase in sophistication.

I disagree.
Since the neolithic age, mankind progressed quite steadily and with increasing speed.
Granted, that only happened during the last 12000 years, but native american societies were already way past that point.
Maybe progress wouldn't be all happening at once, but population density only ever knew one way: up.
Why wouldn't a densely populated region try to expand as much as possible? Why wouldn't they eventually settle the Western Hemisphere as dense as they did Eurasia?
And once that happened, why wouldn't some daring adventurer try to jump over the Bering strait or from Brasil to Africa?

 

[DarthJF]

I doubt it. If the Americans were left to develop on their own they would have developed along a different technological path than Europe due to the lack of metals, horses etc. They may have grown into advanced nations with sophisticated, post-Renaissance knowledge of mathematics, anatomy and the sciences, but without metallurgy they'd never be able to develop into what we might call an "all-round" Reanaissance tech level on their own since they had already discovered the basics.

Furthermore, there would be no incentive for any non-Arctic American tribe to develop the technology necessary for intercontinental trade: in OTL the Age of Discovery was kickstarted by Europeans who thought they could reach the East by sailing West; even if the Inca for example developed a strong seafaring tradition and the means to build ocean-going ships, there would be no reason for them to sail Westward and trade with China if they had no foreknowledge that China (or indeed any other Non-American civilisation) even existed.

While metallurgy wasn't that advanced in Mesoamerica it did exist, with copper works for example pretty common. There's no reason to believe that the craft wouldn't have continued to slowly evolve from that point.

Second, inevitably discoveries in mathematics, astronomy etc. would have led to the discovery that the Earth is a round object revolving around the Sun and the idea that it would be possible to go around it. Even without an idea that there is China beyond the ocean, at some point someone would have had the desire to sail further and discover what's out there. Again, it would have taken longer, but it would have happened inevitably.

 

[Culise]

It doesn't even need to be intentional. The Age of Discovery wasn't kickstarted solely by Europeans who thought they could reach the East by sailing West; even without Columbus, the Portuguese were already on the verge of discovering Brazil and did so independently of Spanish efforts. This was because any attempt to sail south along Africa required navigating westward away from the coast. Prevailing winds along the coast opposed a direct southern route, and the further west you went before making your turn, the more efficient it was. This still required maritime trade, but it didn't require the error Columbus made in finding the circumference of the Earth. Stumbling across Brazil under such circumstances was almost inevitable as soon as some captain waited too long before making the turn.

On the flip side, it appears that any Mesoamericans who have developed regular maritime trade with North America will soon discover that they need to beat to sea in order to return efficiently, and those who follow the South American coast will need to do the same. The distances here are far longer, so it may also take longer, but again, it seems almost certain that someone will screw up their turn and spot Africa or the Canaries in the distance at some point. If we wait for sufficiently-long arbitrary lengths of time, some civilization that develops either in Eastern North America or the Parana basin conducting high-value maritime trade with the great spice-and-gold civilizations of Mesoamerica does seem distinctly possible. Following the GIUK route is also a distinct possibility, as is simply getting stuck in the Gulf Stream and being carried all the way to Ireland.