Councillors should be present at liege's court

[Knight of Lemonwood]

I hate having to go back to CK2 to draw inspiration for CK3 because the newest iteration of CK should already have all the good features we had in the old one. One thing in particular that grinds my gear, in CK3 the player benefits from all the advantages of being a councillor while experiencing none of the downsides that would typically involve being away from your fiefdom to manage your liege's demesne. CK2 atleast attempts to represent that being locking you out of certain decisions such as commanding your own armies and making your character be physically present in your liege's capital as they should be. It is the little things that make the game whole. We should not sacrifice logic in order to make the game easy and accessible. I really hope this is addressed in the near future.

Marshal Improving country control in Karnten. Simultaneously, he's somehow in Knittlesfield sieging down an enemy fort

You either want your best commander on the field sieging down enemy forts or you want them back home improving control. YOU CANT HAVE BOTH. There has to be an opportunity cost to these decisions man! CK3 makes me feel like a spoiled brat that never has to choose because I always get everything without having to forgo or make sacrifices. CK2 atleast respects my ability to choose and doesn't throw everything on my plate

For instance, Count Szebor should not be present at his own court of Brzeg while he's conducting his councillor duties at County Wschowa, he should be physically present at Wschowa.

Additionally, While conducting councillor duties you should not be able to assign them as commanders unless they're relieved from their duties and put into a passive state which is done by cancelling the "improve county control" task. These circumstances should also be the case for the player if they've been appointed as councillor.

Thibault 'the Troubadour' despite having a fancy nickname and being a commander of France is unable to command armies because he's too busy doing his councillor duties. He's also unable to command his own armies because he's preoccupied.

 

[pbw-410]

Very much agree! I'd love to see a real trade-off in the decision to join your liege's council - power, influence, and bonuses, vs leaving your lands to a regent and making yourself more vulnerable in a court that isn't yours.

On a more general point, the travel system is great, but right now it is only half-implemented, as it affects some aspects of the game but is completely ignored by others like council membership, council tasks and warfare - so much so that it almost feels like jumping between two different game modes, one of which is significantly more immersive/realistic/engaging than the other.

(EDIT - more situational trade-offs in general, including having to choose a single job/location for a talented commander, would maybe improve issues with the game being too easy to optimise as well)

 

[Alratan]

I disagree that councillors should always be at their liege's court, as it'd mean constantly being beset by regencies, never being able to take part in activities and would just generally be less fun. There's also no way to just temporarily vacate duties to fight one's own war, and introducing such a system would be quite complex and probably un-fun anyway. Finally, one can also assume that just because one is on the council, one isn't literally doing the task all the time. The whole thing is an abstraction - even having a permanent capital and not being a permanently itinerant ruler (as many were) is an abstraction and didn't happen for most rulers.

However, I do agree that you don't feel like you actually do anything as a councillor, and there's no drawback.

My compromise is to make use of the issue system. Every so often when assigned to a task, a councillor should have an issue based on the task assigned, where they have to travel to the relevant county (the liege's capital in the case of un-targeted tasks), and they have the chance to have a relevant skill challenge. If they pass, they can fulfil their task, invert it or subvert it - with the latter two also coming with Diplo/Intrigue tests to cover it up. Each of these would give lifestyle XP, and doing anything but fulfilling it (including never doing it) should come with varying kinds of relationship penalties, potentially criminal reasons and so on. Either way, they have to actually stop what they're doing and go do something within a reasonable timeframe or else risk forfeiting their position.

 

[Bisonmask]

I disagree that councillors should always be at their liege's court, as it'd mean constantly being beset by regencies, never being able to take part in activities and would just generally be less fun. There's also no way to just temporarily vacate duties to fight one's own war, and introducing such a system would be quite complex and probably un-fun anyway. Finally, one can also assume that just because one is on the council, one isn't literally doing the task all the time. The whole thing is an abstraction - even having a permanent capital and not being a permanently itinerant ruler (as many were) is an abstraction and didn't happen for most rulers.

The solution here is to make lieges run events more. Set up your kid as regent for extra experience and let them go to war with their neighbours. Or require councilors to actually request a leave of absence (and therefore be unavailable) so they can return home to manage stuff, same as how war can kick you out of travel

Making a council position costlier would go a long way to making both vassal and liege gameplay more fun

However, I do agree that you don't feel like you actually do anything as a councillor, and there's no drawback.

My compromise is to make use of the issue system. Every so often when assigned to a task, a councillor should have an issue based on the task assigned, where they have to travel to the relevant county (the liege's capital in the case of un-targeted tasks), and they have the chance to have a relevant skill challenge. If they pass, they can fulfil their task, invert it or subvert it - with the latter two also coming with Diplo/Intrigue tests to cover it up. Each of these would give lifestyle XP, and doing anything but fulfilling it (including never doing it) should come with varying kinds of relationship penalties, potentially criminal reasons and so on. Either way, they have to actually stop what they're doing and go do something within a reasonable timeframe or else risk forfeiting their position.

Agreed

 

[apollo1989vieten]

The regency events and now administrative governor issues should be extended to include events for tasks your liege has asked you to do while on the council. The only time you actually feel like you are on the council is when you discover secrets for your liege as spymaster.

 

[Knight of Lemonwood]

I disagree that councillors should always be at their liege's court

constantly being beset by regencies

never being able to take part in activities

Those concerns are easily remedied and you will then not disagree with the notion of councillors being physically present where the game says they should i.e the improve control example.

councilors to actually request a leave of absence (and therefore be unavailable) so they can return home to manage stuff, same as how war can kick you out of travel

Similar to activities you should have the option to temporarily take leave to your court whenever war breaks out or "manage things from here". I wouldn't mind if you were put into regency if your character is in their liege's council, however I believe it is best to stick to the CK2 model and that not being the case. You're still not present at your court but you're also not in regency.

Decisions such as setting up an activity should not be restricted and a similar remedy as when a war breaks out allows you to attend those activities before promptly returning to your duties as a councillor wherever they may be.

Note: while in a passive state you will not reap the benefits of your councillor position, if you really need that bonus you can simply let someone else command your armies for you while you remain at your liege's court where you should be, doing your duties as a councillor counselling your liege or else where depending on the task.

Every so often when assigned to a task, a councillor should have an issue based on the task assigned, where they have to travel to the relevant county (the liege's capital in the case of un-targeted tasks), and they have the chance to have a relevant skill challenge.

I agree, tasks assigned should have interactive events and contracts associated with it.

 

[Knight of Lemonwood]

A personal request for when the council rework is being worked on: it will be of great use to be able to access your vassals’ vassals as potential candidates for council positions without having to retract them from your direct vassals.

 

[Alratan]

Those concerns are easily remedied

Okay. How?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

How often were powerful landed vassals actually serving at their liege's court instead of staying at their fief during Medieval times?

 

[Pendables]

I was thinking it would be cool if you could choose whether you want to rule from your own capital or from your liege's capital.

 

[peteoj]

How often were powerful landed vassals actually serving at their liege's court instead of staying at their fief during Medieval times?

if that is true then the game should make it possible to bring ANY vassal into your council, that way you wont be stuck in such a weird ahistorical position.

 

[Knight of Lemonwood]

Okay. How?

Continue reading the post you replied to

 

[Emperor 1997]

View attachment 1154385View attachment 1154386

I hate having to go back to CK2 to draw inspiration for CK3 because the newest iteration of CK should already have all the good features we had in the old one. One thing in particular that grinds my gear, in CK3 the player benefits from all the advantages of being a councillor while experiencing none of the downsides that would typically involve being away from your fiefdom to manage your liege's demesne. CK2 atleast attempts to represent that being locking you out of certain decisions such as commanding your own armies and making your character be physically present in your liege's capital as they should be. It is the little things that make the game whole. We should not sacrifice logic in order to make the game easy and accessible. I really hope this is addressed in the near future.


View attachment 1154388 View attachment 1154391
Marshal Improving country control in Karnten. Simultaneously, he's somehow in Knittlesfield sieging down an enemy fort

You either want your best commander on the field sieging down enemy forts or you want them back home improving control. YOU CANT HAVE BOTH. There has to be an opportunity cost to these decisions man! CK3 makes me feel like a spoiled brat that never has to choose because I always get everything without having to forgo or make sacrifices. CK2 atleast respects my ability to choose and doesn't throw everything on my plate


View attachment 1154398

For instance, Count Szebor should not be present at his own court of Brzeg while he's conducting his councillor duties at County Wschowa, he should be physically present at Wschowa.

View attachment 1154400View attachment 1154401
Additionally, While conducting councillor duties you should not be able to assign them as commanders unless they're relieved from their duties and put into a passive state which is done by cancelling the "improve county control" task. These circumstances should also be the case for the player if they've been appointed as councillor.

View attachment 1154408View attachment 1154409View attachment 1154410

Thibault 'the Troubadour' despite having a fancy nickname and being a commander of France is unable to command armies because he's too busy doing his councillor duties. He's also unable to command his own armies because he's preoccupied.

Well, your Councillors don't do the Actions personally in CK3, they have their "Agents" to do the Task.


But, that a Councillor should be at their Liege's Court, this should be added back and Councillors should not be allowed to start/join Activities on their own, only when their Liege join/start an Activity.


Powerful Vassal should also hate being on the Council, because they are unable to govern their own Realm and at a Risk, losing their Titles to their Diarch.

For the Liege, it should be better to have an Powerful Vassal on the Council, because they can be easier controlled, but the Powerful Vassal should really hate it.

 

[Knight of Lemonwood]

How often were powerful landed vassals actually serving at their liege's court instead of staying at their fief during Medieval times?

What we have in CK3 is a form of Privy Council, as the name suggests it is a more intimate form of council that usually requires all members of said council to be present at court in order to counsel the King's on matters of administration, law as well as war.

"The Privy Council dates from the court of the Norman kings, which met in private - hence the description "privy".

In those days, it was made up of those appointed by the King or Queen to advise on matters of state. In effect, privy counsellors - which included noblemen, the clergy and officers of the crown - were the chief governing body and fulfilled the role that the Cabinet performs today.

In legal terms, the Cabinet is a committee of the Privy Council." Source

 

[Knight of Lemonwood]

Well, your Councillors don't do the Actions personally in CK3, they have their "Agents" to do the Task.

That is never implied to be the case nor does it make any sense.

But, that a Councillor should be at their Liege's Court, this should be added back and Councillors should not be allowed to start/join Activities on their own, only when their Liege join/start an Activity.

You shouldn't be completely locked out of being able to host your own activities. You could simply take leave to fulfill that activity whether its a hunt or a feast. However, you will not benefit from the bonuses you usually get when you're actively doing a task as opposed to being in a passive state, basically zero councillor bonuses while being away.

owerful Vassal should also hate being on the Council, because they are unable to govern their own Realm and at a Risk, losing their Titles to their Diarch.

I don't believe we should be put into a regency whenever you choose to be a councillor even though it makes the most sense. It wasn't the case in CK2, it shouldn't be the case in CK3.

Powerful Vassal should also hate being on the Council, because they are unable to govern their own Realm and at a Risk, losing their Titles to their Diarch.

Powerful vassals hate you for not giving them a council position. Council positions historically provided candidates huge influence over the realm and that should be the case in CK3, council positions should not be limited to a handful of buffs but should have realm wide implications similar to being a regent.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

What we have in CK3 is a form of Privy Council, as the name suggests it is a more intimate form of council that usually requires all members of said council to be present at court in order to counsel the King's on matters of administration, law as well as war.

"The Privy Council dates from the court of the Norman kings, which met in private - hence the description "privy".

In those days, it was made up of those appointed by the King or Queen to advise on matters of state. In effect, privy counsellors - which included noblemen, the clergy and officers of the crown - were the chief governing body and fulfilled the role that the Cabinet performs today.

In legal terms, the Cabinet is a committee of the Privy Council." Source

Why did you downvote me then replied with something that doesn't answer the question?

 

[Knight of Lemonwood]

Why did you downvote me then replied with something that doesn't answer the question?

s-ssorry m’lord, won’t happen again

 

[Alratan]

Continue reading the post you replied to

That didn't remedy anything - it still has all of the problems I pointed out. Your solution of taking a leave of absence is one of the options in discarded in my second sentence, so all you've done is restate the things I dislike and disagree with and suggest that somehow solves it.

 

[Knight of Lemonwood]

Sorry for proposing something you don't like​

 

[Rubidium]

Well, your Councillors don't do the Actions personally in CK3, they have their "Agents" to do the Task.


But, that a Councillor should be at their Liege's Court, this should be added back and Councillors should not be allowed to start/join Activities on their own, only when their Liege join/start an Activity.

This has problems from a historical perspective

Councilors didn't just hang out in their lieges court all day, unable to govern their own lands. Indeed, in most realms during the medieval period, the court wasn't even in a fixed location, but traveled around with the king, and permanent attendance wasn't a requirement.

Powerful Vassal should also hate being on the Council, because they are unable to govern their own Realm and at a Risk, losing their Titles to their Diarch.

For the Liege, it should be better to have an Powerful Vassal on the Council, because they can be easier controlled, but the Powerful Vassal should really hate it.

This has problems from a gameplay perspective.

Currently, there is a tradeoff of putting powerful vassals on the council vs. putting the most talented folks on the council. Your powerful vassals want to be on the council, but may have bad skills, so you have to decide between a hefty opinion penalty with them or having less skilled councilors. That is very much by design.

Your proposal would flip this around: yes, you want the most skilled councilors rather than the most powerful, and now your powerful vassals also want you to choose the most skilled rather than them. So the tradeoff is gone.