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praftd

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One of the most defining characteristics of all periods of time is the clashes between different cultural, ethic, religious, and national people. While we've seen improvements to discrimination, right now the cultural laws are far too forgiving. Multiculturalism should massively increase the risk of social upheaval and internal conflict, but it doesn't. In fact, the opposite, it makes society More tolerant. This is simply not how reality works.

Cultural laws should only impact the legal rights of pops but it should have zero impact on the cultural tolerance of them. It makes sense discriminated pops would be happier, but it should make other pops angry.

There needs to be more emphasis placed on cultural and ethnic division than their currently is.
 
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I disagree, The Milgram experiment, Stanford Prison experiment, and the third wave experiment all show us how governments and their influence have a massive impact on how people treat others.

Furthermore I would argue that cultural, ethnic, religious and nation discrimination are a product of fear of the unknown rather than cultural hatred. The most isolated communities tend to be the more intolerant ones, while the more integrated and metropolitan communities tend to be more tolerant. The NSDAP had stronger support in rural parts of Germany than large cities, with Berlin and the urban Ruhr regions of Germany giving them the least percentage of votes in the 1933 election despite being under heavy intimidation.

Paradox represents this well with cultural communities in my opinion, which allow cultures to become accepted over time when moving to a new location. While government policies set the maximum tolerance they could have.
 
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I partly agree, but I also think there's a bit of a xenophobic streak to some complaints along these lines, because they tend to uncritically assume that multiculturalism inherently causes mass violent unrest, which I do not accept as an obvious fact.

Even today when many countries basically practice the real life equivalent of legal multiculturalism, the effects of ongoing discrimination and reactionary movements are things that would not feel very impactful in Victoria 3's systems. Yes marginalised people are likely to be paid less, there is sometimes violence, and anti-migration parties have some electoral success, but are these really going to have a meaningful impact on gameplay systems that are designed to simulate the massive revolutionary and secessionist movements of the 19th century? I don't necessarily think so.

That being said, I did share a suggestion a while ago (pre-1.8) for a 'chauvinism' system, where some aspects of discrimination and acceptance would be based on pop attitudes, rather than just the law. The problem with the idea as I framed it is that it's probably too computationally intensive, and I'm not sure that the final macro-level result would be much different to the current system.

The challenge is that at some point any discrimination system that is more 'realistic' in this aspect will just make discrimination nearly impossible to overcome as a player, so there might as well not be any discrimination system at all.
 
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Multiculturalism as the final citizenship law should be reworked in my opinion. Multiculturalism wasn't even the end goal of leftists / progressive ideologies in many places around the world, there should definitively be alternatives.

I remember discussing it years ago :
(...) French historical policies in regards to cultural assimilation highlights the limits of the current game system. The current 'conservative & discriminatory' Vs 'progressive & multicultural' paradigm is far from being representative of the era.

Assimilation involves reducing cultural differences while multiculturalism is all about recognizing and valorizing these differences.

The French left would typically oppose multiculturalism upon the principle of Republican Universalism. Republicans advocated for an indivisible republic that would not recognise composite identities: people were expected to become fully fledged French citizen... It eventually lead to the French language being favoured over local dialects, Francization of names, etc.
 
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Assimilation and multiculturalism should be reworked in my opinion. Multiculturalism wasn't the end goal of leftists / progressive ideologies in many places around the world...

I remember discussing it years ago :

Right now the only people who support multiculturalism are Anarchists, Enlightened Royalists, Humanitarians and Soverignists, which means the Petite Bourgeoisie, Trade Unions and Inteligencia can support it, but all three oppose it by default. This was changed back in 1.3, which released on May 2023, when was the last time you played Vic 3?
 
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Right now the only people who support multiculturalism are Anarchists, Enlightened Royalists, Humanitarians and Soverignists, which means the Petite Bourgeoisie, Trade Unions and Inteligencia can support it, but all three oppose it by default. This was changed back in 1.3, which released on May 2023, when was the last time you played Vic 3?

It's been a while, indeed.
I saw no major assimilation rework in the few YouTube videos I watched since then. Nice to hear that this aspect of the issue changed, at least!
 
Multiculturalism should massively increase the risk of social upheaval and internal conflict, but it doesn't. In fact, the opposite, it makes society More tolerant. This is simply not how reality works.

Um... what? This is ludicrous, bordering on insane. By this view the United States would have had massive internal conflicts throughout its history as they gradually extended the franchise, while Russia would have been a beacon of stability. What weirdo nativist blog post did this opinion sprout from? I don't think there's any real evidence that more culturally-based countries have fewer internal conflicts. Look at how poorly many modern homogenous European nations deal with large immigration waves, and I can't see how that's a case that multiculturalism is any increase to social upheaval and internal conflict, much less a "massive" one. At any rate the cultural riots that happened in the US during the Victorian era were from groups that were not accepted (like the Civil War draft riots).
 
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I disagree, The Milgram experiment, Stanford Prison experiment, and the third wave experiment all show us how governments and their influence have a massive impact on how people treat others.

And huge swaths of history shows this is completely false. Government do influence people, but largely through supression. The second that government's authority wavers, behaviors shift back to their human mean.

So in a way you are right, diversity CAN be enforced via rule of law. But that doesn't inherently breed stability unless the government can repress it's people enough to create stability. But again, it is a tenuous stability.
 
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Um... what? This is ludicrous, bordering on insane.

Tone down the hyperbole


By this view the United States would have had massive internal conflicts throughout its history

It did and still does. I suggest refreshing your understanding of American history. The US suppressed most of these conflicts via Western cultural dominance and strict government controls. The US government tried incredibly hard to break up cultural "pockets" and disperse them within the US in order to prevent them from retaining their cultural identity beyond the first generation. The US education system was designed based on achieving this, taking notes from what they did to the native Americans. The US was diverse on paper, but it only managed it through extremely intense integration programs which worked. those programs largely dissolved the cultural foundations of immigrants in favor of American culture. Diversity doesn't mean eating tacos on Tuesday and watching anime. Diversity goes way, way, way deeper than that. Talk to a person born in China, Saudi Arabia, or Chad. Their entire world view would be different than yours. If you asked them what makes a country, they'd answer differently than you.

Also, the US wasn't truly multicultural at this time. It largely limited immigration to culturally-similar Western cultures. It was incredibly picky about non-Western Europeans. For the most part, it didn't let them in unless it was going to use them as highly exploited labor. For most of it's history, the US had a de facto policy of maintaining it's Western cultural protestant roots. One of the reasons why it was very spiteful towards Italians and Irish during certain periods.

You simply don't notice these thingsbecause US culture and zeitgeist is the dominant global regime since WWII. It has spread it's immigrant culture to countries that largely didn't have histories of this. Most of "modernity" is just an extension of American cultural dominance and hegemony. Not unlike the British before it. The current age is the most totalitarian ever in human history. More aspects of your life are controlled and managed than any other period by miles. And the very second that tight control and trust in the powers-at-be wavers, people will come into conflict because they have nothing else to guide or rely on unless they have a strong communal structure as a social safety net. Do I really need to point out that is happening now?

Also, it is important to realize the US is a historical aberration. And a young one at that. It is an on going experiment that nobody knows the final result of.


while Russia would have been a beacon of stability.

Russia is incredibly diverse. It is also low density empire. I have no idea what point you are making here. The only thing that keeps Russia together is repression. Without that, it would fracture into cultural and ethnic pockets.



I don't think there's any real evidence that more culturally-based countries have fewer internal conflicts.

Then you simply don't know history at all. Like, at all. There is a direct correlation between social stability and diversity. People keep making the mistake of extending the aberrant period of 1945-2020 as being an eternal state of progress when it clearly isn't. History operates in cycles, not a line going up. We are currently living in the end of one that started in the early 20th century. And that is the same reason why everyone acts like history started with WWII. Because in a way, it did. The worldview most Westerners ascribe to was born from WWII's ashes.

And quite frankly, the West at the moment are akin to a traumatized person who hasn't quite admitted to themselves that they are traumatized yet. WWII was immensely socially traumatizing to much of the world. Not just the West. And many of our beliefs stem from that trauma, not reality.

Look at how poorly many modern homogenous European nations deal with large immigration waves

Mistaking cause with effect. It was only after European countries started dissolving their cultural identity that they started to decline. But I'm not going to have this discussion because it will get this thread locked. Also, most european countries are far from homogenous. Japan is homogenous. France is not. UK is not.

But I'll say this. What made Europe strong was that it was it was a collection of highly competitive group of different ethnicities and cultures. That distinction and competition spawned innovation and progress. Europe's attempt at broad unity, erasing cultural differences, and breaking down the concept of people has only harmed it. Competition stimulating growth isn't just a capitalist concept. Lack of competition is also why so many Chinese dynasties stagnated.


I can't see how that's a case that multiculturalism is any increase to social upheaval and internal conflict

The entire foundation of a nation (or the antiquity equivalent) is it's people. It's people must have a shared history, identity, and core set of beliefs and view of reality. Their zeitgeist. If you force together large numbers of people with little to nothing in common, then conflict WILL arise because the needs, wants, beliefs, and desires of the people will all be different. One of the reason so many Americans feel so lonely, empty, and lack community is specifically because their collective identity is so incredibly weak. So they try and fill the void with consumerism instead. Most Americans don't even know their own history.

Stable societies can only exist when their is a general identity unifying them. One of the number one ways empires conquered people was by watering them down. Romans flooded recently conquered regions with Italians. China floods the Uyghurs with Chinese. The US broke up native tribes and mixed them in with colonials.

When you break up peoples collective identities, roots, and sense of belonging they weaken relative to those in power. However, if that is done to all of society, then society rips itself apart the section authorities aren't forcing everyone to live together.


---

Right now you are just repeating the zeitgeist you were taught and born into, not the reality of how humanity operates and civilizations form.
 
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Tone down the hyperbole
Not hyperbole, and I've studied history quite a bit. Your ideas are simply that, ideas. And rather extreme, niche ideas at that.

The United States did not initially accept all Western cultures; Irish, Italians, and even Germans and Swedes were once seen as 'foreigners'. Your view that they always accepted western Protestants is just *pure* falsehood. They also never really successfully prevented immigration of non-Western cultures; there's a reason why most major American cities have Chinatowns.

The period between 1800 and 1945 saw a *lot* of advances and acceptance for varied immigrant groups. There is a reason why the American Party existed, as pushback because of immigration and people's fear of them. Heck, the literal most popular movie pre-war was The Jazz Singer, about a Jewish entertainer's struggle to balance his background against his desire to be a star. Emma Lazarus (writer of "The New Colossus") lived from 1849-1887. US vs. Wong Kim Ark was 1898. It's actually pretty trivial to go through American history decade by decade and find multiple specific cases of ethnic or religious groups whose lives in America improved because of specific laws, cases, and events.

My point about Russia was that it has had a lot of instability for a long time, and was and still is basically for Russians only. The Russian Civil War happened in part because ethnic minorities from practically everywhere revolted. The amount of culture-based revolts we've had in the US is tiny compared to most nations with significant minorities.

And yes, I'm well aware of the many forced programs forced upon Native Americans to educate them, Christianize them, and tell them that their cultures sucked. Certainly I'm not saying that the US has always been a great actor or a really good multicultural state (slavery, or the constant breaking of every treaty they made with Native Americans kind of discounts that all by itself). But there's really no evidence at all that the more they accept different cultures the less unstable they are. Like, none.

For that matter, I talk to immigrants all the time; I live in the most diverse neighborhood in the frickin' world. I've often asked them what they think of America and what they think of where they came from. I just had a long chat with a guy from Liberia like a week ago. I see women with burqas pick up their kids from the local elementary school. Oh, and New York City, the most tolerant and inclusive city in the US, has one of the lowest crime rates of any major city in the country.
 
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This is post #15 and game mechanics haven't been mentioned once. By anybody.

The place for history webinars is here:


 
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