• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

crownsteler

Colonel
67 Badges
Nov 19, 2010
981
1.366
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Prison Architect
  • 500k Club
There have been some excellent suggestions the last couple of weeks (especially the Demand, Market Control, and War; a Trade Good Overhaul Suggestion), I'd like to add to this. A lot has been written about manpower, unit types and tying POPs to this. I've got my own idea's on that, but I'd like to talk about something else first.

Military traditions
Right now military traditions offer three linear paths to go down, with the only strategic choice really which bonus you want to get first. I'd like to see this system replaced with a different system. I'll start with the simplest option:

Single tradition paths per culture (group)
What I would propose, in its simplest form, is to give each culture (group) access to a single path to go down. Whenever you integrate a culture you gain access to their traditions. This would make the choice for which culture to integrate more strategic. It goes beyond simply 'what makes my empire most stable,' to 'which culture do I want to integrate into my army (to make it better)'. It also immediately comes with a downside in that the more cultures you have integrated, the more options you have, the more diluted your tradition tree becomes.

For example:
In North Africa the Numidians would only have access to the tribal path, allowing them to turn their light cavalry to the best light cavalry in the world.
The Carthaginians would only have access to the naval path.
The Numidians, having no naval experience, could decide to integrate the Carthaginians to get access to their naval expertise.

Or perhaps the Carthaginians would only have access to the military path, but start off with the Phoenicians -who could get access to the naval path- integrated.

It would offer a new layer to integrating cultures.
Which traditions are available could be determined by individual cultures (cool, but a lot of work), by culture groups (less cool, but less work) or by a mix (Rome and Samnites have different traditions, but all Numidians have the same ones).

Tradition Trees
An alternative to the tradition path per culture would be to offer tradition trees. These trees could have mutually exclusive choices, or certain choices opening up more and different options than other paths. This would be fairly cool, but a lot of work. And perhaps the amount of information to create these is not even possible. Which options are available could be dependent on certain factors (for example better cavalry requires access to horses, or certain reform require certain cultures to be integrated).

I made this quick mockup of a partial Roman tree. Don't take it to seriously as it was quickly done and I am not that knowledgable about this subject.

cutting.PNG


The Romans start of with their Etruscan phalanx. It gives their spearmen (I would add that unit type) a strong front with little moral loss, but weak flanks and make it weak on uneven terrain (hills, mountains, swamps, forests). (I know, the Roman had by know switched to the Camillan system, but this would give the player a few more options. Just give Rome a lot of starting military tradition so they could quickly reform).

Rome can choose to go down the Hellenic path with the Sarissa. This would give them a Macedonian phalanx which basicly amplifies the pros and cons of the phalanx (extremely strong front, very weak flank, very weak on uneven terrain).

Or they can go down the manipular path. This makes their spearmen more all round and allows them to incorporate more swordmen into their ranks (gladius, pillum).
This would also open up the Polybian and Marian reforms. This would allow Rome to make better use of their manpower, at the expense of giving lower classes more political weight.
The Polybian reforms could, for example, allow you to use 25% of your freemen as citizens for the purpose of army recruitment, at the expense of slightly less strong citizen units.
The Marian reforms could, for example, amalgemate all manpower into a single pool, at the expense of less manpower from citizens and nobles (and slightly less quality).

I am sure people can come up with a better tree than what I can come up with, but I hope you get the gist.

This would hopefully result in somewhat more strategic thinking concerning the army traditions and composition. It woul hopefully also result in somewhat more unique playthrough with different trees for different cultures.

Applying traditions to singular cultures (groups)
So far I have assumed that all traditions would be applied on the national level. It could perhaps be more interesting to apply them at the unit level. This would require that units be recruited at the cultural level. One would not recruit light cavalry, but Numidian light cavalry. The bonusses from the Numidian tree would only apply to Numidian cultured units.

Option: Reforms at the cultural level.
Rather than having all reforms be national level, let the reform tree be completed a the cultural level. Taking a page from CK3, it would be the cultural leader who gets to choose the reforms which applies to all countries having access to that tree or all units of that culture. If you are vassal leader of that cultural leader you get to choose instead.

For example: Massylia is the strongest Numidian state. Therefore they get to choose the next reform. This reform is applied to all countries having access to the Numidian tree/to all Numidian cultured units.
Now Carthage is vassal leader of Massylia, so it is not Massylia who gets to choose, but Carthage. (unless Massylia is human player and Carthage AI, then the human player could choose).
Culture leader would be whoever has the most integrated (noble) pops of that culture. So one country could be culture leader of multiple cultures.


So these are just my two cents. Hope I made myself clear and people like my suggestions.
 
  • 12Like
  • 2
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
Single tradition paths per culture (group)
What I would propose, in its simplest form, is to give each culture (group) access to a single path to go down. Whenever you integrate a culture you gain access to their traditions. This would make the choice for which culture to integrate more strategic. It goes beyond simply 'what makes my empire most stable,' to 'which culture do I want to integrate into my army (to make it better)'. It also immediately comes with a downside in that the more cultures you have integrated, the more options you have, the more diluted your tradition tree becomes.
Applying traditions to singular cultures (groups)
So far I have assumed that all traditions would be applied on the national level. It could perhaps be more interesting to apply them at the unit level. This would require that units be recruited at the cultural level. One would not recruit light cavalry, but Numidian light cavalry. The bonusses from the Numidian tree would only apply to Numidian cultured units.

Yep, I like this concept for sure, and it would work nicely with any connections between Pops and Cohorts. Gives a bit more of a reason to actively Integrate Cultures as that process is envisioned at the moment.

Option: Reforms at the cultural level.
Rather than having all reforms be national level, let the reform tree be completed a the cultural level. Taking a page from CK3, it would be the cultural leader who gets to choose the reforms which applies to all countries having access to that tree or all units of that culture. If you are vassal leader of that cultural leader you get to choose instead.

I think this part is something a little dicier, but I get why it is appealing. Works with Technology/Inventions too. I guess I'm a little hesitent with the idea of "Cultural Leaders" as a general concept, but it is no more ridiculous than everyone having "Researchers" in this time period, nor everyone independently discovering the same things. I guess I like the concept, but maybe would have it outside the control of any one state, rather moving with the aggregate of what the culture is doing at the time, or something like that; then spreading out across the map like Institutions.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
CK3 culture leader mechanic is awful, please don't copy it.

Otherwise a good suggestion, there are tons of different ways to make military traditions more interesting and linking them directly to specific cultures which you can integrate and / or allowing branching choices are all excellent and relatively easily understood ways of doing so.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Applying traditions to singular cultures (groups)
So far I have assumed that all traditions would be applied on the national level. It could perhaps be more interesting to apply them at the unit level. This would require that units be recruited at the cultural level. One would not recruit light cavalry, but Numidian light cavalry. The bonusses from the Numidian tree would only apply to Numidian cultured units.

Option: Reforms at the cultural level.
Rather than having all reforms be national level, let the reform tree be completed a the cultural level. Taking a page from CK3, it would be the cultural leader who gets to choose the reforms which applies to all countries having access to that tree or all units of that culture. If you are vassal leader of that cultural leader you get to choose instead.

I like different cultures specializing in different units and it would hopefully make people run more unit types in their army and not HI/cav every game. What i don't like is a cultural head, it would severely screw over the diadochi for example there are 8 macedonian cultures and one would choose the path all of them takes Thrace/Macedon/Egypt/Antigonids/Selucids/Bactria/Arachosia/Parthia.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
We like the main proposal but disagree on this:
Option: Reforms at the cultural level.
Rather than having all reforms be national level, let the reform tree be completed a the cultural level. Taking a page from CK3, it would be the cultural leader who gets to choose the reforms which applies to all countries having access to that tree or all units of that culture. If you are vassal leader of that cultural leader you get to choose instead.

In addition to @Jiben's example, what if the culture is spread out (e.g. one Tribe migrates away while other stay in their homeland)? Or if a culture is split between 2 bitter rivals?