Cultural spread

[richvh]

Provincial_conversion.txt has events that change a province's religion to that of the ruler, a province's religion and culture to that of the ruler, but none that change just the province's culture save for event 1091, which changes Saxon and Norman cultured provinces in England to English culture. I think that there should be events for cultural spread without religious conversions. I think two new events would do - one where a demesne province changes to the ruler culture, the other a spread event where culture spreads to a realm province with ruler culture to another that doesn't. MTTH should be something largish.

Thoughts? What ruler traits would influence the rate of cultural conversion?

 

[richvh]

Hmmm, there don't seem to be the right script commands to do quite what I want, but I can come close:

province_event = {
  id = 8450000

  name = "Cultural Influence"
  desc = "Your influence has increased in your capital"
  picture = event_claim

  trigger = {
    condition = {
      type = capital          # not optimal, as I think this is any level capital, not realm capital
    }
    condition = {
      type = not
      value = {
        type = same_culture
      }
    }
  }
  mean_time_to_happen = {
    months = something_large
    modifier = {
      ...
    }
  }
  action_a = {
    effect = {
      type = set_to_realm_culture
    }
    effect = {
      type = ruler_prestige
      value = 100
    }
  }
}

province_x_province_event = {
  id = 8450001
  name = "Cultural Influence"
  desc = "Your influence spreads across the land."
  picture = event_claim

  trigger = {
    condition = {
      type = from
      condition = {
        type = same_culture
      }
    }
    condition = {
      type = not
      value = {
        type = same_culture
      }
    }
    condition = {
      type = same_realm
    }
  }
  mean_time_to_happen = {
    months = something_large
    modifier = {
      ...
    }
  }
  action_a = {
    effect = {
      type = set_to_realm_culture
    }
    effect = {
      type = ruler_prestige
      value = 100
    }
  }
}

That's an outline of what I think can be done. Comments? Any of the betas want to chime in with "No, that won't work because..." or "Here's a better way to do this..."? Is there a script condition to test for realm capital?

 

[richvh]

I put together a pair of events that will tend to spread the culture of the ruler through his realm, modelled on the religious spread events. Feedback/criticism welcomed.

Get my Cultural Spread mod on Crusader Kingdom

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Provincial_conversion.txt has events that change a province's religion to that of the ruler, a province's religion and culture to that of the ruler, but none that change just the province's culture save for event 1091, which changes Saxon and Norman cultured provinces in England to English culture. I think that there should be events for cultural spread without religious conversions. I think two new events would do - one where a demesne province changes to the ruler culture, the other a spread event where culture spreads to a realm province with ruler culture to another that doesn't. MTTH should be something largish.

Thoughts? What ruler traits would influence the rate of cultural conversion?

Well let me say first I am not a modder, technically I dont have a lot of skill writing code of any kind.

No onto balance. Cultural spread should be a slow process, you have indigenous people whom might not be the same culture as the leige. At least 2 generations should be gone through before a culture changes, I know there wasnt a lot of nationalism at the time but english were english and normans were normans. So having a culture spread based on a stat by the ruler is a little soon in my view. I dont know if its possible but could the spread be governed by the amount of time a ruling dynasty has owned the province?

Thats a more palatable solution for me, but I agree over time culture should change without religous conversion. I think stewardship should be the trait that effects the spread, its the trait that determines your provincial income and seems to be the trait most closely associated with province perfomance (measurable by the income values going up with higher stew rating).

Although that might not be a great argument, stewardship is the only trait I can see that directly effects your provinces, the other traits seem to have other applications.

 

[richvh]

Well let me say first I am not a modder, technically I dont have a lot of skill writing code of any kind.

No onto balance. Cultural spread should be a slow process, you have indigenous people whom might not be the same culture as the leige. At least 2 generations should be gone through before a culture changes, I know there wasnt a lot of nationalism at the time but english were english and normans were normans. So having a culture spread based on a stat by the ruler is a little soon in my view. I dont know if its possible but could the spread be governed by the amount of time a ruling dynasty has owned the province?

No, there's no way to test for how long a dynasty has ruled a province (and with the passage of generations, the culture of the ruler, though of the same dynasty, may have changed, as a child may (low probability) take the culture of his mother of his home province, determined at birth.)

Thats a more palatable solution for me, but I agree over time culture should change without religous conversion. I think stewardship should be the trait that effects the spread, its the trait that determines your provincial income and seems to be the trait most closely associated with province perfomance (measurable by the income values going up with higher stew rating).

I used stewardship and diplomacy stats, plus some traits (cruel/merciful, energetic/lazy, just/arbitrary, chaste/lustful) and province improvements and advances (roadnets, harbors, schools) and estate power (high burgher power is a plus, high peasant or clergy power a minus.) Didn't think of testing on province income, and I can see the argument to not use diplomacy. Zealous gives a big bonus on religious conversions; maybe high province income should give a big bonus for cultural conversion?

Although that might not be a great argument, stewardship is the only trait I can see that directly effects your provinces, the other traits seem to have other applications.

Technically, stewardship is a stat, not a trait; the traits are all those little icons lined up next to your picture. Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

 

[Solmyr]

Looked at these more closely. MTTH seems huge, that's almost 170 years and the game will make it even longer (since it seems to add about 50% to MTTH values).

Comments on modifiers:

Chaste/Lustful: why would these affect cultural spread? Shouldn't Lustful prove more helpful in "spreading your culture", anyhow?

Vernacular literature in target province: should IMO hinder rather than help. If people have developed their own written language, they'll likely feel more attached to their native culture.

Noble power: should it help the spread? Nobles in target provinces would often pick up the customs and traditions of the ruling court.

Advances on the Fair and Routes and Trade Practices chains should give a small bonus to help the spread (traders and merchants carrying their customs and practices around the country).

 

[richvh]

Looked at these more closely. MTTH seems huge, that's almost 170 years and the game will make it even longer (since it seems to add about 50% to MTTH values).

It's less than the MTTH of the religious conversion events, though in my current game (as the Byzantines, which lets me have a huge demesne) I'm still getting far more religious conversions than cultural conversions (all those churches, monasteries, and templar houses must more than make up the difference.) What do you think is a better MTTH? months = 720 would be 60 years, how's that sound for spreading? How much longer should the non-spreading event be?

Comments on modifiers:

Chaste/Lustful: why would these affect cultural spread? Shouldn't Lustful prove more helpful in "spreading your culture", anyhow?

It's all about respect. The people will respect a ruler more if he is chaste than if he is lustful (and the bastards that don't end up in court are going to have the mother's culture, anyway.)

Vernacular literature in target province: should IMO hinder rather than help. If people have developed their own written language, they'll likely feel more attached to their native culture.

Noble power: should it help the spread? Nobles in target provinces would often pick up the customs and traditions of the ruling court.

Fair points. Should the noble influence be stronger or weaker than the burgher influence?

Advances on the Fair and Routes and Trade Practices chains should give a small bonus to help the spread (traders and merchants carrying their customs and practices around the country).

Which level should they kick in at? The religious conversion events only use the level 5 advances to influence things. So change vernacular_literature to a factor 1.1, and add international_fairs and foreign_accreditation as factor .9s?

 

[Solmyr]

It's less than the MTTH of the religious conversion events, though in my current game (as the Byzantines, which lets me have a huge demesne) I'm still getting far more religious conversions than cultural conversions (all those churches, monasteries, and templar houses must more than make up the difference.) What do you think is a better MTTH? months = 720 would be 60 years, how's that sound for spreading? How much longer should the non-spreading event be?

Leave it as it is for now. I wouldn't want to see the map's cultural divisions be altered too radically during the course of a game.

It's all about respect. The people will respect a ruler more if he is chaste than if he is lustful

Will they? IMO that trait duo would lean more towards religious rather than cultural views. I mean, the French would probably respect a lustful ruler more.

Should the noble influence be stronger or weaker than the burgher influence?

Roughly the same, I guess. If only there were a way to increase burgher influence and decrease noble influence as time goes on...

Which level should they kick in at? The religious conversion events only use the level 5 advances to influence things. So change vernacular_literature to a factor 1.1, and add international_fairs and foreign_accreditation as factor .9s?

Sounds good.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Well I missed the trait vs stat thing sorry.

Personal traits like lust and cruelty or zealous or for that matter midas touch might be reasonable factors for a culture spread but now with a little more understand of the factors in play I think province features should be more important then leige traits/stats.

Prestige might be a consideration and titles. Its logical to think that peasants or Burghers might want to emulate the King of England more then say the count of leicester. Province improvements though seem to be reasonable factors but the personal traits of a leader shouldnt be a major factor unless his prestige is very high.

i dont know how detailed the calculation would be, but the more advanced the province the faster the spread should be. The higher the prestige of the lord the greater the chance should be that his culture is adopted, If my leige is a count one step up from a burgher Im not going to emulate him. Charecter traits should be a factor but can they be modified down to a percent of the total equation? If so then sure a zealous char might have a culture spread faster because his traits are admired but it shouldnt be the main factor, changing the culture of a population should over a long period.

How to make that tie into a char trait, over time, seems hard, unless traits follow the dyansty (some do) otherwise look to the province value and technology as the main factor.

 

[richvh]

Well I missed the trait vs stat thing sorry.

Personal traits like lust and cruelty or zealous or for that matter midas touch might be reasonable factors for a culture spread but now with a little more understand of the factors in play I think province features should be more important then leige traits/stats.

Prestige might be a consideration and titles. Its logical to think that peasants or Burghers might want to emulate the King of England more then say the count of leicester. Province improvements though seem to be reasonable factors but the personal traits of a leader shouldnt be a major factor unless his prestige is very high.

I can't test for the ruler level - only in character events, not province events, can that be done. I can test ruler prestige, and a king is likely to have higher prestige than a count. Sliding scale, bonuses for prestige >1000, >10000, >100000 sound good?

I'm testing for cruelty/mercy, lust/chastity, energy/laziness and justice/arbitrariness now, and Solmyr's arguing against the lust/chastity test. I'm not testing for zealousness; that seems to be more a religious trait, and I don't think it is appropriate here. I'm testing for some province improvements - roadnet, extensive roadnet, civilian harbour, naval harbour, grand shipyard, school, grand palace and theater - and some level 5 province advances. There doesn't seem to be a way to test the province prosperity level or its value. Any thoughts on which improvements should hinder the spread?

 

[unmerged(12746)]

I can't test for the ruler level - only in character events, not province events, can that be done. I can test ruler prestige, and a king is likely to have higher prestige than a count. Sliding scale, bonuses for prestige >1000, >10000, >100000 sound good?

I'm testing for cruelty/mercy, lust/chastity, energy/laziness and justice/arbitrariness now, and Solmyr's arguing against the lust/chastity test. I'm not testing for zealousness; that seems to be more a religious trait, and I don't think it is appropriate here. I'm testing for some province improvements - roadnet, extensive roadnet, civilian harbour, naval harbour, grand shipyard, school, grand palace and theater - and some level 5 province advances. There doesn't seem to be a way to test the province prosperity level or its value. Any thoughts on which improvements should hinder the spread?

The scale seems reasonable, with testing Im sure it can be tweeked. Char traits I leave to you, I will say though that prestige and piety should have a higher value in the equation as they would be more attributable to reputation at the peasant level, then a leiges zealousness. Knowing the behavioral patterns of a leige, at the peasant level seems a bit intimate.

I think religous improvents should hinder the spread, change was never something the church handled well and religous advances might be a way to have a negative factor. At least this way the player might have to think about how he wants his ecclestical advances to come. At least using province improvements as the measuring stick, Churchs and monestaries would be a decent negative modifier.

The only other structures are castle (most other structures modify income), and a castle might be an item that increases prestige, and then that inturn would increase the likelyhood of the spread, based on the prestige modifier.

 

[richvh]

Updated Cultural Spread Mod is up on Crusader Kingdom.

Changed some of the factors to MTTH (and added/changed some of the things altering MTTH.)

 

[Orlando]

I think that terrain should be very important for culture spread. I mean natural barriers, like mountain ranges as Pyrenees or the Alps, had important effect separating not only kingdoms, but also cultures. IMHO they should be much more important than any personal trait of the ruler.

O

 

[Orlando]

This is an example of the terrain modifiers that I was using.

For the spread:

		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = to
				condition = { type = terrain value = desert }
			}
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = from
				condition = { type = terrain value = desert }
			}
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = to
				condition = { type = terrain value = forest }
			}
			factor = 1.4
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = from
				condition = { type = terrain value = forest }
			}
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = to
				condition = { type = terrain value = hills }
			}
			factor = 1.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = from
				condition = { type = terrain value = hills }
			}
			factor = 1.4
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = to
				condition = { type = terrain value = mountain }
			}
			factor = 2.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = from
				condition = { type = terrain value = mountain }
			}
			factor = 2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = to
				condition = { type = terrain value = march }
			}
			factor = 1.6
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = from
				condition = { type = terrain value = march }
			}
			factor = 1.4
		}

And this for the non spreading:

		modifier = {
			condition = { type = terrain value = desert }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = terrain value = forest }
			factor = 1.4
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = terrain value = hills }
			factor = 1.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = terrain value = mountain }
			factor = 2.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = terrain value = march }
			factor = 1.6
		}

I'm using different modifiers for the 'from' and the 'to' provinces, as I think that the rough terrain should influence more when a foreigner is trying to asimilate that province that reverse.

O

 

[Solmyr]

Terrain-based modifiers sound like a good idea.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Yea, but those listed for some are IMO too low. March FE IMO should be atleast 2.

 

[Orlando]

I guess we should test them and see how often we get the culture change, for what I've tested it doesn't happen too often, but I hadn't tested thoroughly yet...

O

 

[Orlando]

By the way, I just realized that the religion is not taken into account for the culture conversion. Don't you think it should affect the MTTH by a large factor? I think it should be really hard to assimilate a population that is not your own religion...

The only setback I see is that then you would have to script an event for each religion...

O

 

[richvh]

New version is up on the website.

New in rev. 3:
Orlando's terrain effects
MTTH factor for same_religion
MTTH factor for same_ruler for spreading version (i.e., both provinces are in the same demesne.)
MTTH factors for high ruler prestige (steps at 1000, 10000, 100000)

 

[unmerged(2456)]

New version is up on the website.

New in rev. 3:
Orlando's terrain effects
MTTH factor for same_religion
MTTH factor for same_ruler for spreading version (i.e., both provinces are in the same demesne.)
MTTH factors for high ruler prestige (steps at 1000, 10000, 100000)

I think there should be penralty if the ruler ever gets negative prestige though, after all they wouldn't wasnt to emulate someone with negaive prestige, and probably negative piety as well.