Curiosity about Societies

[Manaloth]

With the addition of societies to the game, and thus the addition of the Alchemists guild, I do find myself curious as to what other societies will be added to the mod society branch and if there's an overall plan for that mechanic. I figure that the Sorrowful/faceless men will probably join the alchemists at some point (I haven't played essos in awhile so it may just be a region thing, I haven't played with the mechanic much and thus am unaware), but then again I could also see them staying their own independant kingsguard like duchy.

I'm just excited to hear what this new facet will add, if anything.

 

[Kapitalisti]

I really don't see the Faceless Men being a society. They're not something you can join up "on the side" after all. And hard to play as someone who should be no one.

 

[TheAtreides84]

I really don't see the Faceless Men being a society. They're not something you can join up "on the side" after all. And hard to play as someone who should be no one.

On the other hand, it's not like you can be a Dominican monk on the side. Societies in CK2 are more about giving patronage and getting some benefits.

 

[Manaloth]

On the other hand, it's not like you can be a Dominican monk on the side. Societies in CK2 are more about giving patronage and getting some benefits.

THinking of it from that perspective, I think it would make sense to be able to invest into the Bank of Braavos through societies. Be able to enter in, pay an investment and build and grow your funds if you meet the requirements.

 

[blackninja9939]

On the other hand, it's not like you can be a Dominican monk on the side. Societies in CK2 are more about giving patronage and getting some benefits.

Even taking that perspective into account the Faceless Men would still not let some Lord be a patron like that would they?

 

[TheAtreides84]

Even taking that perspective into account the Faceless Men would still not let some Lord be a patron like that would they?

That's more a matter of them being very powerful and thus very independent, but if some strong lord wanted to give them a boatload of money in exchange for some privileges I think they would accept that.

 

[SBerger]

I really don't know why you're trying to argue for these societies. It's already been determined that assassin guilds, Iron Bank, Sparrows, etc. won't be societies because they just don't work in this mod in the way societies work in Vanilla.

 

[Manaloth]

I really don't know why you're trying to argue for these societies. It's already been determined that assassin guilds, Iron Bank, Sparrows, etc. won't be societies because they just don't work in this mod in the way societies work in Vanilla.

At this point it's not just a matter of discussing adding them for game mechanic's sake, but it seems to have become a discussion of lore and the logic behind the potential of adding them.

 

[Manaloth]

Honestly, I could see the Faceless men allowing people to donate their funds to the organization, even if it's not directly or if there was a matter of secrecy to it all, particularly the Braavosi lords. It's been awhile since I read some of the books and I never read them all, but it felt implied that some lords seem to use the FM on a regular basis, to the point where every Braavosi instinctively knows how to interact with aspects about faceless men, so I could believe that SOMEONE supplies the gold they don't earn through traditional contracts. Even if you are noone, you still need supplies to survive.

 

[Andrelvis]

I really don't know why you're trying to argue for these societies. It's already been determined that assassin guilds, Iron Bank, Sparrows, etc. won't be societies because they just don't work in this mod in the way societies work in Vanilla.

The Sparrows seem like an excellent fit, actually.

 

[SBerger]

The Sparrows seem like an excellent fit, actually.

Except when you actually look at them. Societies in the game are in existence for the entire game for specific cultures and religions. The Sparrows are essentially a King's Landing own religious cult that came about after an influx of refugees were escaping the war in the Riverlands and aligned themselves with an essential nobody who in game years would die in a few years due to his age, and only gained actual power when Cersei foolishly gave them the authority to re-establish the Faith Militant in order for her to keep her power. Why would a cult like this exist during a religiously stable, peaceful era that is the majority of this mod? The Sparrows are a society, yes, but only a society in a limited context and would not be available to the player due to the majority of members being lowborn peasants and any nobility who did join them were either landless or forsaken their claims. They'll end up just being another Night's Watch in the game filled of disinherited, celibate highborns.

 

[Andrelvis]

Except when you actually look at them. Societies in the game are in existence for the entire game for specific cultures and religions. The Sparrows are essentially a King's Landing own religious cult that came about after an influx of refugees were escaping the war in the Riverlands and aligned themselves with an essential nobody who in game years would die in a few years due to his age, and only gained actual power when Cersei foolishly gave them the authority to re-establish the Faith Militant in order for her to keep her power. Why would a cult like this exist during a religiously stable, peaceful era that is the majority of this mod?

Whether a society is active is subject to conditions. The Sparrows could first appear, for instance, if a particularly nasty war ravaged a part of the South.

The Sparrows are a society, yes, but only a society in a limited context and would not be available to the player due to the majority of members being lowborn peasants and any nobility who did join them were either landless or forsaken their claims. They'll end up just being another Night's Watch in the game filled of disinherited, celibate highborns.

That is just the same as vanilla orders like monastic orders. You couldn't be a monk without forsaking your lands, so the vanilla societies represent people who are supporters of the monastic order, but who aren't full members. The Sparrows fit that model perfectly; rulers who are sympathetic to their cause would be a part of their in-game society.

 

[SBerger]

I'm sorry man, but game mechanics don't allow a society to just appear out of nowhere and disappear when things get calm. They either exist throughout the game in its entirety or they don't exist at all.

 

[vyshan]

In regards to the Sparrows, for a religious society of the Seven IMO they are not needed when you have the silent sisters, the begging brothers, and the brown/contemplative brothers.

Could also go and do some non-canon and do a separate society for each of the aspects of the seven, like the Silent Sisters are for the Crone. It seems like there should be different orders for the different aspects, but George hasn't gone that much in-depth with the faith of the seven IMO anyways.

 

[Andrelvis]

I'm sorry man, but game mechanics don't allow a society to just appear out of nowhere and disappear when things get calm. They either exist throughout the game in its entirety or they don't exist at all.

There is the "active" field for societies, but even if there weren't, there are also the "show_society" and "potential" (the latter for joining) ones.

 

[blackninja9939]

Also have to take into consideration the Sparrows are made up of courtiers and theocracies both of which are not playable

 

[Andrelvis]

Also have to take into consideration the Sparrows are made up of courtiers and theocracies both of which are not playable

Indeed, but the same is true of monastic orders, and nevertheless in vanilla they are societies which lay people can "join" (representing becoming a supporter, rather than actually becoming a monk). Likewise, it would be quite possible for there to be lords in Westeros who have sympathy for and support the Sparrows, without going as far as taking their vows.

 

[blackninja9939]

Indeed, but the same is true of monastic orders, and nevertheless in vanilla they are societies which lay people can "join" (representing becoming a supporter, rather than actually becoming a monk). Likewise, it would be quite possible for there to be lords in Westeros who have sympathy for and support the Sparrows, without going as far as taking their vows.

A decision which I disagree with in vanilla to an extent. Regardless one of the core things about the Sparrows is about it being for the poor peasants not Lords

 

[SgtSmuckers]

Pff, forget sparrows and faceless men, what is needed is the Lustful Eight Society. This society should be formed of only the most powerful, and most lustful, lords who have already completed the quest of Making the Eight.

 

[Manaloth]

Something worth considering though, that just because the "Sparrows" themselves haven't existed in lore until Cersi raised them into prominence, doesn't mean they didn't exist. They were called Sparrows after the events mentioned above, yes, but the High Sparrow was inspired by the acts of those who came before and the gods themselves Westeros has always been alive with religious strife, even during the "peacetimes". Let us not forget the High Septon's Rebellion, and just because they have been beaten into submission, does not mean that the faith would just up and disband other groups, so it's possible that the Sparrows could exist as a secret society of religious fanatics, especially when you consider that their rituals are taken straight from the original andals themselves.

The concept of rebirth isn't a new one to religion, even if it's just a matter of ideologies and theological shifts in core values, so it is theoretically not unimpossible for a religious organization to exist and just change it's name.

Let us not even recover the ground that Societies, mechanically speaking, are for offering patronage, as well as gaining some benefits that come along with being a member.

And as for societies just disappearing, I have some news for you. Sure, mechanically a society can't just poof on ya, unless we've got some rather creative dev skills of course, but it IS possible for a society to "Die out" with all of it's member's having died. Just because they don't have members from the start doesn't mean that some theologist could join, or, an even better idea, potential for an event trigger for a lord to "Revive" or "Start" the sparrows like Cersi did.