Custom or not Custom (Mech)

[Yeach]

I have been reading Wolves on the Border.
Minobu Tetsuhara gets to borrow a Vindicator for an exercise.
The description says that the original LRM5, Sian/Ceres Jaguar, was replaced by a Holly type.

Would you consider this to be a customized mech or stock?

How about say you replace the Luxor-D in a Centurion with a Western Heavy AC10?

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Custom.

Weapons are differentiated by Manufacturer. Thus switching weapons sometimes offers the BATTLETECH player a range and/or combination of Bonuses.

To me that makes the switching out of one AC10 for a different AC10, BattleMech Customization.

 

[WhiteChapel]

Technically, it's a customization for the reasons Prussian listed above. However, I'd argue the changes are usually minor enough I wouldn't classify it as a customization. If your using optional rules, then even a particularly bad or good repair roll can grant bonuses and penalties. Does a superior installation of an arm actuator (granting a bonus on melee or ranged attacks count as a custom?

For me, as long as the basic mech profile remains the same, I don't count it as a "custom". I'll grant however, that a system like HBS uses makes that a much harder argument to make since a Medium Laser ++ can actually be superior to a Medium Pulse laser.

 

[Yeach]

So pretty much all the “stock” mechs in BATTLETECH are custom...

 

[Prussian Havoc]

So pretty much all the “stock” mechs in BATTLETECH are custom...

No, the BATTLETECH “Stock” Mechs are indeed... Stock.

 

[Yeach]

No, the BATTLETECH “Stock” Mechs are indeed... Stock.

You are right.
I meant that if it was according to Battletech lore, then technically the stock mechs in BATTLETECH would be custom mechs because they do not have all the original manufacture weapons according to lore.

 

[Shark7]

Basically, if you are swapping a medium laser for another medium laser (be it better or worse) then technically its an upgrade, not a custom. I say upgrade because even though you might have to modify the mounting brackets/wiring harness, you shouldn't need to modify the chassis to fit it (1 ML is the same size as another one, according to the game rules). This might take a skilled tech a day or two to complete.

Custom would be more like taking the AC-10 in a Centurion and replacing it with a PPC and several heat sinks. In this example, you are replacing a ballistic weapon with an ammo feed mechanism and magazine with an energy weapon and its wiring harness and heat sinks. These are weapons of different type and size. This isn't just a simple matter of rebuilding the mounting brackets, you will have to completely remove the old ballistic weapon system, including it's feed and magazine, then rebuild the location to make new brackets and find room for the additional heat sinking. Certainly not something that could be done in a day or two.

 

[Sigil]

The description says that the original LRM5, Sian/Ceres Jaguar, was replaced by a Holly type.

Would you consider this to be a customized mech or stock?

How about say you replace the Luxor-D in a Centurion with a Western Heavy AC10?

It remains a "Stock" 'Mech in both cases. Just changing the manufacturer of a weapon system (or other component) is not, but itself, enough for a 'Mech to lose "Stock" status. I doubt many 'Mechs still retain any OEM parts after remaining in service 100+ years. It's my grandfather's axe

 

[Prussian Havoc]

It remains a "Stock" 'Mech in both cases. Just changing the manufacturer of a weapon system (or other component) is not, but itself, enough for a 'Mech to lose "Stock" status. I doubt many 'Mechs still retain any OEM parts after remaining in service 100+ years. It's my grandfather's axe

As long as the Manufacturers of said weapons are not providing BATTLETECH differentiated weapons... #STOCKisSTOCK.

One “+” and to me, the Stock designation is lost.

 

[Shark7]

As long as the Manufacturers of said weapons are not providing BATTLETECH differentiated weapons... #STOCKisSTOCK.

One “+” and to me, the Stock designation is lost.

It's no longer stock (IE as it was when it walked off the factory floor), but its not custom either. Hence my argument that it is upgraded or modified. IE its now a Centurion "+".

I have to agree with @Sigil on this one, since I doubt many 100+ year old 'Mechs retain most of their original equipment. Wear and tear is normal...a 'Mech getting shot at on a regular basis is bound to have more than normal wear and tear. Parts get replaced with whatever you can find. Factory original is preferable, but if you can't find an exact match, you make something work.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

In the Inner Sphere Weapons and Munition Factories are still in production, with the means of War rolling off assembly lines on a daily basis.

Even in the 3025 BattleTech InnerSphere, Stock Mechs can indeed be kept in a Stock Configuration and are as I see it the Rule with FrankenMech/Hodgepodge's of non-Cannon Manufacturers being the exception that proves the Rule.

In the Periphery?

Yeah... Rules and Exceptions get muddled in the Periphery.

And yes, before anyone need ask, YMMV. :bow:

 

[TaurianMerc]

In the Inner Sphere Weapons and Munition Factories are still in production, with the means of War rolling off assembly lines on a daily basis.

Even in the 3025 BattleTech InnerSphere, Stock Mechs can indeed be kept in a Stock Configuration and are as I see it the Rule with FrankenMech/Hodgepodge's of non-Cannon Manufacturers being the exception that proves the Rule.

In the Periphery?

Yeah... Rules and Exceptions get muddled in the Periphery.

And yes, before anyone need ask, YMMV. :bow:

I'll need to pull them out to give you specific examples, but there are a number of 'mechs in the TROs that clearly state that weapon/s had to be replaced with an alternative by a different manufacturer because the original was no longer available. They still kept the same designation, so as far as in universe goes, at least, they don't consider it any different.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

I guess I would consider it a custom modification, but still a stock configuration. It is components it didn't come with, however it also doesn't change the formula of the mech.

 

[stjobe]

"Stock designs (generally those presented in the Technical Readouts and other CBT supplements) can be modified from their original specifications in two ways: via standardized "refit" kits or one-off custom modifications.

REFIT KITS
Refit kits are factory-produced packages, often created by the unit’s original manufacturer. The parts have been carefully selected to be compatible with a specific unit. Extensive supporting documentation is provided to make installation relatively straightforward. The disadvantage of refit kits is that they offer only a limited choice of options. Refit kits are graded by complexity. A relatively minor modification can be done in the field, but others are more involved and require a fully equipped maintenance facility or even access to the kind of support only found in a manufacturing center.
Standard refit kits are available for any variant of a specific design published in the Technical Readouts. OmniMech versions of older designs are always treated as a separate design in such cases. For example, a BJ-1 Blackjack can be refitted into a BJ-1DB, BJ-1DC, BJ-2 BJ-3 or BJ-4 model. It cannot be refitted into a BJ2-O OmniMech"
- Strategic Operations, p.188​

"CUSTOMIZING
Customizing is the practice of installing non-factory replacement parts in a unit to improve or modify its performance.
Omni units are designed to use interchangeable modular pods, so they are rarely customized. However, even Omni chassis contain certain integral components, such as engines, armor and fixed weapons. These items are not installed in modular pods, so they must be replaced with customizing procedures. DropShips, JumpShips, WarShips and Space Stations can only be customized with the assistance of a functioning shipyard.
Some examples of custom refits are found on published record sheets. They can be identified by their designation, which includes the name of individual for whom they were customized; for example, "BLK-6-KNT Black Knight Ian" is the designation of a customized Black Knight.
(Warning! Performing customization of any unit will invalidate its warranty.)"
- Strategic Operations, p.189​

Using factory replacement parts means the 'Mech stays stock - even if it changes variant. Using non-factory replacement parts means it's customised.

Simply swapping a Hellion Medium Laser (standard) for a Magna Medium Laser (+10 damage) does not make it a custom 'Mech (it still has a ML where the original specifications says it should have a ML). Swapping a Hellion Medium Laser for a Intek Large Laser does, if that particular chassis does not have a variant with a LL in place of a ML. If it does have such a variant, it is still a stock 'Mech.

 

[The Shadowhawke]

We're on fuzzy ground here. In technical terms it's custom, but if I replace the factory carburetor on my classic car with a Holley, does that truly make the vehicle a custom? It certainly matters for points with a car show, but not so much on an average day.

Now if that LRM is replaced with a + model, I'd call that a custom.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

We're on fuzzy ground here. In technical terms it's custom, but if I replace the factory carburetor on my classic car with a Holley, does that truly make the vehicle a custom? It certainly matters for points with a car show, but not so much on an average day.

Now if that LRM is replaced with a + model, I'd call that a custom.

I agree with you. Adding premium, Bonus-inducing Weapons removes a BattleMech’s “Stock” designation.

Adding +10 Damage Medium Laser, +5% Accuracy SRM6, +10 Stablity Damage AC5... tricking out the Weapons of a Wolverine removes the “Stock” designation of Mech.

Not “Stock.”

 

[stjobe]

Adding +10 Damage Medium Laser, +5% Accuracy SRM6, +10 Stablity Damage AC5... tricking out the Weapons of a Wolverine removes the “Stock” designation of Mech.

As long as it has an AC/5 in the right arm, a SRM-6 in the LT, and a ML in the head, it's stock in my book (also, engine rating, heat sink count, JJ count, and armor total must be stock values too). Just adding a +, ++, or +++ weapon of the same type does not make it a custom as far as I'm concerned.

YMMV, of course, and that's fine and dandy. Your table, your rules and all that

 

[Yeach]

No problem here.
I’ll just swap my 50mm Armstrong AC5 on my Clint for a120mm Whirlwind AC5.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=29179.25;wap

Still stock.

 

[BrianDavion]

No problem here.
I’ll just swap my 50mm Armstrong AC5 on my Clint for a120mm Whirlwind AC5.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=29179.25;wap

Still stock.

except as that link shows, even the writers don't agree on the calibur of a weapon, in fact, if we take that literally Loren L Coleman apparently can't make up his damn mind about what the size of a blackjack's autocanons are (although more likely the 30mm figure was simply him rounding)
in terms of the battletech table top rules a LRM 5 is a LRM5 is a LRM5, so strictly speaking this was not a customization, HOWEVER one could certainly, using table top rules, use this bit of jury rigging to justify a quirk.

 

[Yeach]

except as that link shows, even the writers don't agree on the calibur of a weapon, in fact, if we take that literally Loren L Coleman apparently can't make up his damn mind about what the size of a blackjack's autocanons are (although more likely the 30mm figure was simply him rounding)
in terms of the battletech table top rules a LRM 5 is a LRM5 is a LRM5, so strictly speaking this was not a customization, HOWEVER one could certainly, using table top rules, use this bit of jury rigging to justify a quirk.

Oh I agree that they can't make up their minds but I've been told that the designation for autocannons (AC2, AC5, AC10, AC20) are based on the damage produced and not by calibre.

Specific to the LRM5 in question from Wolves,
"The Holly's discharge rate was slightly inferior to that listed for a factory-fresh Jaguar launcher, but its reputation among Mechwarriors of the Inner Sphere was far superior."

If the Holly was regular LRM5, would that make the Jaguar a LRM5 + because of its slightly higher discharge rate?

Also if the Luxor-D autocannon on the Centurion was so prone to jamming, wouldn't most mechwarriors want to replace it with a more reliable AC10?