CVLs too weak

[unmerged(49243)]

I think that the CVLs in doomsday are too weak. Two nav groups from Italy managed to take out a SH-BB protected by 4 CVLs (the 1939 model), a couple of CLs and around 14 DD flotillas (plus there were a couple other BBs in the group, also got heavily damaged). I think that it's a bit too much if just two navs can take out a battleship, in one bombing run, protected by four escort carriers and other ships. Am I the only one who thinks that navs are too strong vs. CVLs?

 

[TheLand]

I think that the CVLs in doomsday are too weak. Two nav groups from Italy managed to take out a SH-BB protected by 4 CVLs (the 1939 model), a couple of CLs and around 14 DD flotillas (plus there were a couple other BBs in the group, also got heavily damaged). I think that it's a bit too much if just two navs can take out a battleship, in one bombing run, protected by four escort carriers and other ships. Am I the only one who thinks that navs are too strong vs. CVLs?

What level were the other ships, and what level were the Navs?

Basically, only CLs and now CVLs have any air attack, the key stat for an air battle. If the fleet was mainly made up of ships that Britain has at the start of the game, then your fleets DVLs might have been the only serious antiair asset - in which case the situatio you describe is just about plausible.

Don't forget it only takes a few torpedos to sink a battleship!

 

[unmerged(54503)]

I think that the CVLs in doomsday are too weak. Two nav groups from Italy managed to take out a SH-BB protected by 4 CVLs (the 1939 model), a couple of CLs and around 14 DD flotillas (plus there were a couple other BBs in the group, also got heavily damaged). I think that it's a bit too much if just two navs can take out a battleship, in one bombing run, protected by four escort carriers and other ships. Am I the only one who thinks that navs are too strong vs. CVLs?

I was under the impression they are for submarine defence.

What would have hapened if you had 4 regular carriers?

Don't listen to me though I am in the dark on this issue.

 

[blue emu]

Also bear in mind that "just two Navs" represents 200 Torpedo Planes.

At Taranto in 1940, twenty-one British Stringbags (BI-PLANES, for God's sake) attacked the harbour... only some of them armed with Torpedoes... and they torpedoed three Italian Battleships... seriously damaging Littorio and Caio Duilio, and putting Conte di Cavour out of the war for good. It was never repaired.

That's only one-tenth the force that attacked your SH-BB.

 

[Mork]

As I have said before, CVLs are best used in escort roles (they are also called escort carriers, which really is a more apropiate name for them), they have great detection ratings and AA capabilities but little in anti ship capabilities, that is the job for other vessels.
They make good additions to a BB heavy fleet.

Oh, and they have plenty of subattack value.

Example:

- Improved CVL
surfacedetectioncapability = 10
airdetectioncapability = 6
subdetectioncapability = 7
seadefence = 9
airdefence = 7
seaattack = 2
convoyattack = 2
subattack = 10
airattack = 9

A mere 2 in sea attack, but 10 in sub attack and 9 in air attack.

They kill subs very quickly, find other fleets and defend against enemy air attacks.

 

[unmerged(49243)]

What level were the other ships, and what level were the Navs?

name = "3a Gruppo Bomb. di Navale 'Centauro'"
model = 1
and
name = "4a Gruppo Bomb. di Navale 'Drago'"
model = 1

So level II nav's.

The ships they were against were SH-BBs (3), Great War BBs (2), III CLs (2), IV CLs (1) and IV DDs (12). To me it seems rather strange that the nav's managed to take the BB out before I could even notice it was damaged. I recall someone also posting about sinking the whole Royal Navy within a month as axis-Ireland in Doomsday using just 4 Tac's. It just seems like the naval attack of airplanes is too strong in doomsday or the ability of ships to return fire too weak. The navs barely get damaged when they attack 4 CVLs whereas most of the capital ships of the fleet get heavy damage. Strange, but maybe this was just a "lucky hit" by the navs.

If you look at the sinking of Bismarck, for example, it takes a lot of bombers (plus they also bombarded it from BBs) to sink a battleship. Now consider a battleship with four escort carriers. Do CVLs give protection from CAGs by the way (I haven't fought a CTF with that fleet yet).

 

[blue emu]

A typical early-war CVL had a VERY small Air Group:

Hosho : 12 Bombers, no Fighters.
Zuiho : 12 Bombers, 12 Fighters.
Ryujo : 21 Bombers, 16 Fighters.

Those three Japanese CVL's average 9 Fighters per CVL... so if that's about average, your four CVL's added together could put up a 36-Fighter CAP... against 200 attacking Naval Bombers.

Not too surprising that the Bombers got through to whack your BB.

 

[Spruce]

but there's another thing we must not overlook !

Retreat has been totally revamped I guess. When you retreat - sometimes you get away with it (like HOI2). But sometimes you are still shot at - during retreat ! And the body count is dramatical.

I had a fleet with 2 CV's as Germany - I engaged Royal Navy. And after a while I wanted to retreat. It seemed the Royal Navy wouldn't let me to, and they slaugthered all of my ships - only a DDIV flotilla escaped.

Perhaps your fleet got caught during retreat. And in the DD manual there's some gloomy statement about "more damage is likely to be inflicted on retreating fleet" and "enemy ships keep on firing until you are out of range".

Did you lose the SHB during battle or during retreat. Retreat can be very dangerous right now.

 

[TheLand]

The ships they were against were SH-BBs (3), Great War BBs (2), III CLs (2), IV CLs (1) and IV DDs (12). To me it seems rather strange that the nav's managed to take the BB out before I could even notice it was damaged.

In game terms: I would class that as unlucky based on my experiences, but not implausible.

Bear in mind that only the CVLs and CLs have any real ability to damage the enemy air units, and the amount of damage you do determines how quickly they have to retreat, and hence how much damage you take.

The SHBBs and BB-Is also have very low Air Defence scores, which increases the damage they take.

I think it can only take 5 or 6 hits to sink a battleship. Given that the naval bombers probably have about 20 'shots' per hour which are all targeted (if they can get away with it) at your battleships, it's not implausible to lose a battleship very quickly indeed!

Do you happen to recall how skilled your admiral was?

 

[unmerged(49243)]

Do you happen to recall how skilled your admiral was?

I think it was a skill 2 grand admiral. The fleet was at around 75% org (rebasing from the mediterranean to atlantic).

I get that it's possible that this could happen in real life, but just seems a bit strange that what I thought was a good anti-nav anti-cag cover, proved to be fairly useless.

Retreat has been totally revamped I guess. When you retreat - sometimes you get away with it (like HOI2). But sometimes you are still shot at - during retreat ! And the body count is dramatical.

Didn't notice this yet, but I hope that it really has been changed. Before it was annoying how AI ships could retreat through two sea "provinces" into their base and no one (except navs) could fire at them.

 

[unmerged(13991)]

Look, you have 4 LVL 2 CVL, 2 LVL 1 BB, so they are not that great.

By experience I can tell you CV are efficent only when LVL 4, before that they at best just keep away a BB fleet. I do regualry sink the RN (6 CV) with my 3 CV as germany. Why? Well logic I think, my 3 CV are lvl 4, the brit CV are level 1,2,and 3 (they only have one lvl4).

CVL before lvl 3 are can not protect against NAV, CAS, or even tac. The 1941only will start to provide some protection.

 

[P3D]

Looks like paradox just added a useless feature without addressing the main problem - the overpowered naval bombers are around since HoI2 1.0.

BTW are CVLs screens or capital ships?

 

[unmerged(13991)]

Useless? It would have be usuless if they had the same features as a CV , but half prise, half construction time.

IRL, CVL/CVE were merely planes transporteurs, they acted as main weapons just in some few cases and mostly because the exceptional situation (Leyte is I recall well). The purpose of the 'kaiser coffin' were not to agressive, but provide or an long range reconnaissance for the convoy and also a better protection against subs (they do it fairly well in the game), and to provide a way for the CV to always have CAG 100% operational (exemple when the CAG turn to have looses, then the CVL will send new planes + crews). That was a stategy invented by a US admiral in the Pacific.

 

[Permanganate]

Looks like paradox just added a useless feature without addressing the main problem - the overpowered naval bombers are around since HoI2 1.0.

CVLs Air Attack is basically useless because planes are somewhat overeffective and wildly overarmored against ships. Nav don't lose a significant amount of str regardless of how many carriers are shooting at them, so their only enemy is land-based air. While their sea-sweeping capability has been slightly toned down in Doomsday, with Esc F being a brigade, Nav are harder to fight. Your fighters might not even be able to make it out to where the Nav are, and they might lose when going up against Nav-Esc F because your fighters are flying around at random and the bombers are all in one province going after a fleet or convoy.

Has anyone had success with using CVLs on submarine fleets?

 

[Mork]

I can tell you that the AI has had really good success against me with CVLs contra my nuclear subs, they got squashed one month into the war all found by surface fleets (containing CVLs), mauled and then killed on the retreat by bombers.
The US really ruled the waves, I could take everything out on the mainland (Europa, Africa and mainland Asia), but I had serious problems reaching America.
Oh, as the USSR starting from '36.