[Demo] Caliphate of Córdoba, an antipope mechanism extension

[Aerotinge]

I had been messing around with CK2's anti-pope mechanism long ago. It's a neat mechanism to simulate caliph pretenders.
Finally I found a beautiful solution for it recently. The only flaw is the collage button glitch.
Here's the outcome.

And a custom decision, providing Cordoba as a formable HRE counterpart for Islamic world.

This post is just a showcase, to demonstrate the potential of CK2.

Our old crusader is still capable, at least in simulating schism religious leaders.
I don't think the new faith branch method used in CK3 is comparable to anti-pope mechanism of CK2. It lacks of simplicity and beauty.

 

[jonjowett]

Seems like a really neat idea!

The only flaw is the collage button glitch.

Someone who understands interface modding may be able to help you here.

For example, the button itself seems to be described in ...\interface\domestic_religion.gui at line 1021:

		guiButtonType =	{
			name = "show_electors_button"
			position = { x=30 y=57 }
			quadTextureSprite ="GFX_religion_open_cardinal_screen"	
			Orientation = "UPPER_LEFT"
			clicksound = character_view_click
			pdx_tooltip = "SHOW_COLLEGE_OF_CARDINALS"
		}

I couldn't find any code which explicitly turns this UI element on or off, so I'm assuming that its visibility is hardcoded somehow.

However, there might be a way to turn it OFF in additional circumstances via user-accessible scripting. And that's where an interface modder might be able to help.

If that fails, you might at least be able to replace the icon and tooltip for non-Catholics, to show that the button exists but shouldn't be used.

 

[Aerotinge]

I'll try using a dummy, transparent graphic to hide it first tomorrow.
I hope CK2 reads that asset from /muslim_interface sub-flodder correctly.

Or maybe the old trick

guiButtonType =    {
            name = "show_electors_button"
            position = { x=65525 y=65525 }
            quadTextureSprite ="GFX_religion_open_cardinal_screen"    
            Orientation = "UPPER_LEFT"
            clicksound = character_view_click
            pdx_tooltip = "SHOW_COLLEGE_OF_CARDINALS"
        }

to get rid of whole element. Out of sight. I don't care cardinal elector stuff anyway.

 

[jonjowett]

I'll try using a dummy, transparent graphic to hide it first tomorrow.
I hope CK2 reads that asset from /muslim_interface sub-flodder correctly.

Or maybe the old trick

guiButtonType =    {
            name = "show_electors_button"
            position = { x=65525 y=65525 }
            quadTextureSprite ="GFX_religion_open_cardinal_screen"    
            Orientation = "UPPER_LEFT"
            clicksound = character_view_click
            pdx_tooltip = "SHOW_COLLEGE_OF_CARDINALS"
        }

to get rid of whole element. Out of sight. I don't care cardinal elector stuff anyway.

I mean, it would be nice if your anti-caliph mod was compatible with Christian player characters, so maybe it's not ideal to turn the button off for everyone!

 

[Silversweeeper]

Interesting. Have you checked that it's not extremely side-effecty whenever either party dies, especially if the true caliph dies when duke tier? The regular Antipope mechanic goes off of "Has a claim on the Papacy", after all, so it'd be rather unfortunate if the caliph's death resulted in Sunni MA being nuked due to naturally occurring claimants...

 

[comiclove]

Oh man, I've been using your 'Pretenders to the Caliphate' mod for a current playthrough and it's been fun. Would love to give this a whirl, CK2 desperately needs more...everything (flavour, mechanics, etc.) for Islam.

 

[Aerotinge]

Interesting. Have you checked that it's not extremely side-effecty whenever either party dies, especially if the true caliph dies when duke tier? The regular Antipope mechanic goes off of "Has a claim on the Papacy", after all, so it'd be rather unfortunate if the caliph's death resulted in Sunni MA being nuked due to naturally occurring claimants...

If the actual title holder does not exist, the Anti-RelHead MA modifier(-30 each) will not be in effect. So it's not a problem.
Still, I have to cleanup the spawning claim when a temporal head losing his rel head title for reasons like unlanded.
BTW, for temporal pretenders, their anti-papacy claim will not pass to heirs. It's seems either succ_open_elective or is_theocracy is the hardcoded key of an anti-papacy continuity.
I'm doing more testing to see if there are other events or mechanics that give religious head claims exceptionally.
A little worried that elders under the eldership succession would do this.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

I had been messing around with CK2's anti-pope mechanism long ago. It's a neat mechanism to simulate caliph pretenders.
Finally I found a beautiful solution for it recently. The only flaw is the collage button glitch.
Here's the outcome.
View attachment 970561
And a custom decision, providing Cordoba as a formable HRE counterpart for Islamic world.
View attachment 970560
This post is just a showcase, to demonstrate the potential of CK2.

Our old crusader is still capable, at least in simulating schism religious leaders.
I don't think the new faith branch method used in CK3 is comparable to anti-pope mechanism of CK2. It lacks of simplicity and beauty.

Nice. I wanted and tried to make something similar, but my modding capabilities weren't enough, so I will definietely check your mod

 

[Silversweeeper]

If the actual title holder does not exist, the Anti-RelHead MA modifier(-30 each) will not be in effect. So it's not a problem.

The caliph title would still exist on normal succession, though, so the case of caliph A dying, son B inheriting, and sons C, D, and E getting claims -- I don't recall off the top of my head if they do if a higher title is held, but I suspect they do if your primary is the caliphate title -- is something to investigate, particularly as the mechanic has been designed for a use case in which the rel head is very unlikely to have any children. If memory serves, vanilla has historically had issues with Papal bastards tanking Catholic MA, and I don't know if that was fixed script-side or hardcode side.

Still, I have to cleanup the spawning claim when a temporal head losing his rel head title for reasons like unlanded.

While this is your mod and you do what you like, that sounds pretty extreme, seeing as it'll potentially mess with claimant factions, adventurers, and the like that require characters to have claims...

BTW, for temporal pretenders, their anti-papacy claim will not pass to heirs. It's seems either succ_open_elective or is_theocracy is the hardcoded key of an anti-papacy continuity.

Then it sounds like there should be a "Do you want to continue your dynasty's pretensions?" for the primary heir shortly after succession, seeing as the Umayyads did...

 

[Aerotinge]

The caliph title would still exist on normal succession, though, so the case of caliph A dying, son B inheriting, and sons C, D, and E getting claims -- I don't recall off the top of my head if they do if a higher title is held, but I suspect they do if your primary is the caliphate title -- is something to investigate, particularly as the mechanic has been designed for a use case in which the rel head is very unlikely to have any children. If memory serves, vanilla has historically had issues with Papal bastards tanking Catholic MA, and I don't know if that was fixed script-side or hardcode side.

Indeed, I'm dealing with inheritance things. Hope I can figure out a tradeoff/workaround.
Was the papal bastard quirk due to succ_open_elective? Can't really recall that. Haven't bump into that problem after JD.

Then it sounds like there should be a "Do you want to continue your dynasty's pretensions?" for the primary heir shortly after succession, seeing as the Umayyads did...

Agree, sometimes it could be an elective one, like Zaidi imams in Yemen.
I'm not sure passing the anti-church along with a primary_title is a good idea or not...
But I really hate writing events with desc and option, even if there are only "YES" and "NO" in it

 

[jonjowett]

Agree, sometimes it could be an elective one, like Zaidi imams in Yemen.
I'm not sure passing the anti-church along with a primary_title is a good idea or not...
But I really hate writing events with desc and option, even if there are only "YES" and "NO" in it

The caliphate is temporal and passed along with the primary title, so it seems quite reasonable to pass the anti-caliph status along with the primary title. And this "reasonable" approach allows you to pass the anti-caliph status using a hidden event with no localisation ;-)

Some further ideas:

• Cleanup: If the anti-caliph becomes landless (eg. via revocation, conquest) then their anti-caliph status should be automatically revoked.
• Usurpation: If the anti-caliph is a vassal and their top liege could also be anti-caliph, then the top liege should be able to usurp the anti-caliph status by decision.
  • Easy: The decision peacefully and immediately removes the anti-caliph status
  • Hard: The decision triggers a letter event where the anti-caliph has a choice: accept the removal of their anti-caliphate peacefully, or start a rebellion to fight for possession of the true caliphate. And the AI should make a good decision between these two options.
• Caliphal deletion: If the anti-caliph is a direct or indirect vassal of the caliph (of the same religion) then the caliph should be able to remove the anti-caliph status by decision.
  • Easy & Hard options as per the previous point.

 

[Silversweeeper]

Indeed, I'm dealing with inheritance things. Hope I can figure out a tradeoff/workaround.
Was the papal bastard quirk due to succ_open_elective? Can't really recall that. Haven't bump into that problem after JD.

Not sure what was causing it; I've not found the fix in the patch notes, but I recall the devs being aware of the issue and believe there was a fix at some point.