Devs, please consider these changes to brigades

[unmerged(327751)]

- Anti-Tank brought back (seperate from Field Artillery)
- L and M Tank Brigades grouped together (each type keeps all of its models and upgrade path is not changed)
- H and SH Tanks grouped together (same as above)
- New brigade for paratroopers: Gliders (+org, +soft/hard attack...)

View attachment Brigades.zip (420 KB) <-- it's light, please download it, back up your files (just a few), and try it. (It's just a quick work to show my idea, not meant to be a real mod. Some model pics need to be renamed, I did it but they are too heavy so not included).

Please try it and give feedback. Thanx ^^

 

[airpirate]

Um, for the devs to consider any changes to the brigades posted here, they are going to want to know why you made them. Just saying to change four things about a system that already works pretty well (unless you have reasons that it doesn't) isn't going to get you very far. If the current system isn't broken, and the changes are moddable, then it should probably be made as a simple mod. Here's my opinion on the little information you gave:

1: I see no reason to; anti-tanks were completely useless to research in HOI2.
2: Both are useful brigades; I see no reason for this.
3: See 2.
4: Without any information on the new brigade, I can't give much of an opinion.

 

[Sakkura]

they are going to want to know why

^ This.

 

[T.j. Arnold]

Perhaps this belongs in User-Modifications?

 

[Edgar87]

I like the Gliders idea +1

 

[unmerged(327751)]

Um, for the devs to consider any changes to the brigades posted here, they are going to want to know why you made them. Just saying to change four things about a system that already works pretty well (unless you have reasons that it doesn't) isn't going to get you very far.

Err... sure.

In DH, anti_tank has been modded to become a new brigade type called "Medium Tank" (still anti_tank if you take the mask off) to represent how the Brits, French, and many others used tanks before the Germans showed them how.

And rocket_artillery has been modded to become Cavalry brigade (still rocket_artillery if you take the mask off) to give 1914 scenario some brigade types.

What I mean is that the current brigade system is already modded, some more modding doesn't hurt.

And it is not perfect. The problems I see are:

- There are too many types of Tank brigades that are too similar. L, M, and H tanks don't differ much. Yet these guys take up 4 types of brigade, which is a waste (unless I'm misinformed, the number of brigade types is limited). Grouping them together would free up space to add new types of brigades.

- SH Tanks have only 2 models: one is an obsolete 1917 type that has no use; the other gives -4 speed, not upgradable, and is weaker than later H tanks. But they take up 1 type of brigade for its own, while there is no brigade type for paratroopers.

- And this is not important, but

Current brigades line up (in unit production screen) is: Art -> SP Art -> Cav -> SP AA -> M Tank -> TD -> L Tank -> H Tank -> ... -> AA ... (huh?)

You see? Not too neat. Why is Cav there between SP Art and SP AA? Why is M Tank not between L and H Tank? Why is AA and SP AA too far from each other (they should be near like Art and SP Art)

In the pic I show above: Art -> SP Art -> AA -> SP AA -> AT -> SP AT -> L Arm -> H Arm ... Neat. 3 types of artillery at front, followed by their SP variants, then Tank brigades, Cav and AC have same functions so they are near each other.

Here's my opinion on the little information you gave:

I posted a quick mod to demonstrate my idea, it's just 400Kb, you just have to back up a few files and try it.

1: I see no reason to; anti-tanks were completely useless to research in HOI2.
2: Both are useful brigades; I see no reason for this.
3: See 2.
4: Without any information on the new brigade, I can't give much of an opinion.

1. With Tank Destroyer (SP Anti-Tank) still seperated from SP Artillery, I can't see why Anti Tank must be merged with Artillery (except to free up space for another brigade).

If you say Anti Tank is useless then Tank Destroyer aka SP Anti-Tank is useless too (same function) and should be merged with SP Artillery... And there are more useless brigades out there.

2. SH Tanks are useful? Seriously? But whether useful or not, they are still there, not deleted, just grouped together to free up space for a new brigade type for paratroopers.

3. I grouped them together under 2 types: L and M become "Tank Brigade", H and SH become "Heavy Tank".

All M Tank brigade models and SH Tank brigade models are still in the game, and their upgrade path are not changed. So are L and H Tanks.

4. Again, I posted the mod. It's just 400Kb, not too hard to download... Anyway, there is this new brigade type (for paratroopers only) called "Gliders", described as "engineless aircrafts often launched by transport planes... blah blah i forgot...", which give +org, +air defense, + a bit of hard/soft attack because they help paratroopers make concentrated landing and bring along heavier equipments.

...

Feel free to discuss.

Perhaps this belongs in User-Modifications?

It's not a complete mod that I wanna publish or something.

I just want the devs to check out my idea of a better brigade system to improve the game. Seaplanes have been added, why not gliders? Currently Paratroopers have no brigade available after all.

 

[airpirate]

Okay, that is how you pitch an idea!

1: I still disagree with this. In HOI2 Anti-tank artillery and the tech it required were useless. The system works in DH, and I still see no reason to fix it.
2: I also disagree here. Having separate medium and light tank brigades makes sense as long as there are medium and light tank divisions. The divisions advance along with the brigades in the tech tree, which makes sense.
3: Okay, I'll give you this. There are so few Super Heavy models that the WWI tank could just be a heavy tank and the WWII tank tech could improve the Heavy tank's stats.
4: Paratroopers need brigades, I agree.

 

[unmerged(327751)]

Okay, that is how you pitch an idea!

1: I still disagree with this. In HOI2 Anti-tank artillery and the tech it required were useless. The system works in DH, and I still see no reason to fix it.
2: I also disagree here. Having separate medium and light tank brigades makes sense as long as there are medium and light tank divisions. The divisions advance along with the brigades in the tech tree, which makes sense.
3: Okay, I'll give you this. There are so few Super Heavy models that the WWI tank could just be a heavy tank and the WWII tank tech could improve the Heavy tank's stats.
4: Paratroopers need brigades, I agree.

1. I also still disagree with you. SP AT (aka TD) is there together with SP Art, so AT needs to be there together with Art. Researching AT techs give Art -1 soft attack is somehow not sounding too convincingly realistic to me.

joke ------->
Officer: Crap! Enemy armours!! Bring the anti-tank guns!!!
*Soldiers brings some artillery*
Officer: Are you idiots?! I said anti-tank guns!! A.N.T.I.T.A.N.K! I want to shoot those darn TANKS, darn it!!
Soldiers: Sir, anti-tank guns are the same as artillery now. The AT tech gives -1 soft attack to Art and increase supply consumption so no one bothered to research!
<-------joke

One more reason why AT should be back: currently researching AT techs and R.Art techs will just add bonuses to Art, making Art really overpowered, while its SP counterpart is much weaker. Not too awesome to me.

The reason why the devs grouped AT and R.Art with Artillery was because they need space for M Tank and Cavalry brigades, I think. I'm fine with R.Art being the same as normal Art, but AT? No.



2. L Tank lineup kinda stops when M Tank's starts on the tech tree... Like I said, all L, M, H, and SH Tanks are still available, their upgrade paths can stay the same as well.

M Tank brigades will not make L Tank brigades obsolete, and L won't upgrade to M. They both are part of one brigade type now, however, i.e. if you are allowed to attach 2 brigades to one division, you can't have L and M Tanks together because they are just 2 models of the same type.

The 1944 SH Arm (Maus) is still there, as the last model of H Arm, but it does not make H Arms obsolete, and H Arms won't upgrade to it. (thanx to the new "heavy_armor = -2" parameter)


The only catch here is that Light Armor Brigade does not have a seperate name (forced to use same name as Light Armor), so the short name can be changed to TB (Tank Brigade), but the long name stays as "Light Armored"... But I guess we can let it slide and have 2 category of tanks: Light and Heavy = p

 

[unmerged(90249)]

about your point 1, from REAL LIFE :

ART from that time (and after) such as the US 105 Hm2 (that was the dotation of US and French ART regiments) were deadly as anti tank.

The french army was still using them in the 1980'; one of those I had in my command did the Italian campaign (with at one moment the Sergeant A. Ben Bella as NCO , the future 1st President of Algeria). I used them with success in war conditions in both Middle East and Nothern Central Africa for putting down armored vehicules with direct-shoot (tir a vue directe) with tube with a negative elevation (-10 millieme if I recall, but I might be incorrect here), level 3 with the powder (mean with bag1 + bag 2 + bag 3) ... and it is deadly. Better, as 3 men are enought to serve a 105HM2 (and a jeep is enought to move it in flat ground), there is really no need to have specific AT!

Notice is does not invalid your idea, it is only a precision on a small detail : At one moment (Arras 1940) , AT became obsolete!

 

[SwordOfJustice]

All divisions have organic AT and ART in them. I suppose having a brigade added represents adding a lot of extra tubes as happened in some divisions and armies. I know that Afrika Korps had a lot of AT guns compared to other german units. I also believe that British were famous for using a lot of artillery, is that right? So the brigade in HOI2/DH is meant to represent that.

Thinking deeply on the HOI2 combat system and how Soft and Hard Attack points are allocated vs a target's Softness, I always thought the values were way too low to make the AT brigade viable in HOI2. If an armour division has 50% softness then each point of Soft Attack is just as good as Hard Attack vs those armoured targets, with the added benefit that it also works against fully Soft targets like infantry divisions.

For AT to be in the game and have the kind of effect that would justify building them, one needs to give them serious Hard Attack points so that armour divisions feel the sting of casualties when fighting an infantry division with an AT brigade. German 88s skillfully dug in and camoflaged in the desert war were deadly to Allied tanks, for example.

AT guns also carried HE rounds for use against soft targets. So in the game they should have some Soft Attack rating also.

I agree there is a strong argument to amalgamate/consolidate several brigade types at this scale of wargame. SH tanks were very few in number and could be considered part of the H tank brigade. I also think you could amalgamate Artillery and AT into one "support" brigade. It would certainly make good sense in HOI3 with its division design system (I think one mod did that).

Anyway, it's well documented how effective artillery was in killing tanks. Artillery could kill tanks in bombardment but also the guns could fire directly on tanks as ericB posts. A 15cm artillery shell hitting a tank directly has a big effect as you can imagine.

Looking at the Hard Attack values in DH artillery brigades, I'd say they're too low to have a meaningful effect on fighting armoured divisions. It starts at HA 1 for WW1 artillery and rises to 3 for advanced field artillery.

Now bear in mind that the Soft Attack of the Art brigade will likely also cause casualties to an armoured enemy unit. It's been documented that HOI2 combat engine makes a check for each point of attack against the Softness rating of the target with either HA or SA being used depending on the random roll for Softness. Most armoured divisions have Softness around 30% so a third of the time Soft Attack will be used. But HA of 1 rising to maximum 3 seems too low to have the desirable result for how artillery could also hurt tanks.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Where is Blue Emu to run some deep analysis? Ach, one can never find an Emu when you need one!

Cheers,
Sword

 

[unmerged(327751)]

All divisions have organic AT and ART in them. I suppose having a brigade added represents adding a lot of extra tubes as happened in some divisions and armies. I know that Afrika Korps had a lot of AT guns compared to other german units. I also believe that British were famous for using a lot of artillery, is that right? So the brigade in HOI2/DH is meant to represent that.

Thinking deeply on the HOI2 combat system and how Soft and Hard Attack points are allocated vs a target's Softness, I always thought the values were way too low to make the AT brigade viable in HOI2. If an armour division has 50% softness then each point of Soft Attack is just as good as Hard Attack vs those armoured targets, with the added benefit that it also works against fully Soft targets like infantry divisions.

For AT to be in the game and have the kind of effect that would justify building them, one needs to give them serious Hard Attack points so that armour divisions feel the sting of casualties when fighting an infantry division with an AT brigade. German 88s skillfully dug in and camoflaged in the desert war were deadly to Allied tanks, for example.

AT guns also carried HE rounds for use against soft targets. So in the game they should have some Soft Attack rating also.

I agree there is a strong argument to amalgamate/consolidate several brigade types at this scale of wargame. SH tanks were very few in number and could be considered part of the H tank brigade. I also think you could amalgamate Artillery and AT into one "support" brigade. It would certainly make good sense in HOI3 with its division design system (I think one mod did that).

Anyway, it's well documented how effective artillery was in killing tanks. Artillery could kill tanks in bombardment but also the guns could fire directly on tanks as ericB posts. A 15cm artillery shell hitting a tank directly has a big effect as you can imagine.

Looking at the Hard Attack values in DH artillery brigades, I'd say they're too low to have a meaningful effect on fighting armoured divisions. It starts at HA 1 for WW1 artillery and rises to 3 for advanced field artillery.

Now bear in mind that the Soft Attack of the Art brigade will likely also cause casualties to an armoured enemy unit. It's been documented that HOI2 combat engine makes a check for each point of attack against the Softness rating of the target with either HA or SA being used depending on the random roll for Softness. Most armoured divisions have Softness around 30% so a third of the time Soft Attack will be used. But HA of 1 rising to maximum 3 seems too low to have the desirable result for how artillery could also hurt tanks.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Where is Blue Emu to run some deep analysis? Ach, one can never find an Emu when you need one!

Cheers,
Sword

Why is everyone talking a lot about AT?

The main point here is the Military Glider brigade.

Since the devs do not seem to care, I guess I'll just have to edit the brigade system again and again every time a new patch is out.

Can someone move this thread to suggestions, please

 

[D Inqu]

Ok, I think it fits in this thread. My list of most useless brigades, which might as well be removed and be replaced with other brigades:

1. SP AT. Expensive not very useful in most cases. I would agree to include it in SP ART as Desert Tiger suggested
2. SH Arm. Never use it, too expensive, no real advantage over H Arm.
3. SP AA. Could just be merged with regular AA. There were few "true" SP AA until after ww2
4. Cav brigades after ww1. Expensive and no defensive bonuses.

Brigades I would like to see:

1. Siege Artillery. I am currently using a personal mod with edited stats for SP AT. Siege artillery represent the very heavy very expensive artillery pieces used in critical battles. Give a large soft attack and toughness bonus, very slow.
2. Gliders. I like the idea.
3. Helicopters. Not a separate brigade type, but rather new models in the seaplanes and gliders lines, triggered by the air cavalry tech.