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unmerged(30948)

All life with EU II
Jun 22, 2004
1.967
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Hi everybody! 2nd game with EV as GM!
We’re going to simulate the development of some Nations throughout the centuries, trying to modify the usual look of European majors according to own desires (and to own skills too). Surely people are used to see some countries instead of other ones now, but History didn’t always show a fixed slow flow.
Little but decisive events stroke dynasties more than wars: lost pregnancies or sterile weddings, murdered princes or youth lethal illnesses, unlucky spouses or court lovers, traitors, gambling debts, broken treaties, …
AI nations were improved and pretty expanded, many leaders/monarchs were added where the authors left empty spaces … now the players should try to have fun: I advice against joining here people fearing the idea of losing by AI.

Diplomacy thread

stats for 1689

ElioGC scenario

Difficulty: Normal - AI: Normal - Fog war
Game speed: normal at peace, below normal at war (with no lags)

Day/hour: on wednesdays since 19:00 CET last call at 19:15 playing not more than 4h/25y
GM/Editor: Elio Vasa
Dynamic missions managed by Balinus
Scenario: Elio GC (real adventure) with ElioGC.txt eventfile
Year save, version 1.09.
Host: Krantz IP: ?

Roster\Countries:
Why must we trample on feet one another since the start?
Let’s pick according to single areas\cultures:
Novgorod: Fnuco
Denmark: Arch Mede
England: Jonesy now Scafogliero
Burgundy: sir Sher
Spain: Nagel now Krantz
Venice: Samilou
Austria: Da Nu
Hungary: Dark Death always subbed
Lithuania: Wow
Mameluks: Elio Vasa
Moghuls: Marcus de Vera

Obey the loud GM, don’t offend players, be reasonable, play long term.
Be on time: at least 50 % perms needed to start. Inform GM about an absence at least 24h in advance, so the GM can help to find your sub. Absences in a row will produce Your exclusion.
Rehosting after CTD if at war, on next January if at peace and connected by ICQ, no rehosting if at peace and not connected by ICQ.

Attention: dynamic missions are explained by Balinus in post # 487 here
 
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Rules

The GM suggests: don’t put on autosend merchants.
The GM suggests: ask core provs as first in Your peace offer.
The GM suggests: 1 vs 1 war between humans at the same tech ranking level or temporary alliances between 2 minors to attach 1 major (it must end after getting the peace).

Game rules
Never (AI or human) and nowhere map trading.
Humans can have not more than 1 (human or AI) vassal; no limits for AI.
Some not ethical behaviours are forbidden here (penalty is inflation +1 %):
- fake wars with sacking of a capital to go around the map trading rule;
- fake wars to raise other human country’s stab;
- lag bugs-loopholes, lag-merchants, lag colonists, lag fortresses, lag promotions, lag loans;
- privateer or pirate spamming everywhere;
- manu or TP burning by an army during the war both to AI and to humans;
- Spain can't colonize during ToT's age free lands marked by portuguese shields;
- not withdrawing armies suddenly from enemy nations after peace just to explore;
- breaking a truce at negative stab;
- releasing vassals during a war;
- not breaking a military access with human player before DoWing him;
- one galley pirate-guard;
- DoWing a human during his civil war;
- at session’s end You aren't allowed to be above the BB threshold of your nation (if > 50, 50 if threshold < 50) and not to have a higher inflation than 30 %.

Events rules
No random event - No random religious event
Slept inheritages of Algiers, Bohemia, Burgundy, Hungary, Mameluks. No USA events.
Historical leaders stay (not all), historical monarchs (not all) stay, added fictional leaders/monarchs.
Special dynamic missions can be discussed with Balinus.
No restriction about explorations, colonizations, trade.

War rules
No human alliances, but possible agreed wars vs AI.
Human nations can't be attacked when ruled by AI.
Human peace offers: 3 provs rule from enemy (5 from an alliance) always and everywhere (colonies count for ½, TPs count for 0, CoT for 2). No turbo-annexion. War claims can be declared in the game before DoWing (and respected in the peace offer).
NAP (max 15y) or treaties about fixed borders between humans must be public and respected.
Human player must accept next peace offer at stab -3 and -99 WS.
With forced vassalization you can cancel it by DoWing human Lord after 10y (not needed if there will be a deal with him).
Human forceconversion implies the whole peace offer, so without gaining provs.
Max 1 perm CB for a Country at the start, no core upon humans’ capitals.
 
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Few things to point out:
1) Might want to make the playable countries roster easier to read
2) The Timiriuds will get huuuugeeee
3) Pirate guards are forbidden?
4) Breaking a truce at negative stab?
5) I really don't think that their should be any situation where the GM can call a gang,
6) No random events? but they are really intergral to the game
7) Aggresion and backstabbing and such like are quite often where a lot of the fun is :cool: (for example I chose Scotland so I can go around acting like all scotsmen do- in a beserk rage :D )
8) TPs really should not have a points score, they should be 1/10 of something at most
 
Edits by GM

Human players:
1 (major) state culture at the start, but a minor culture can be added after annexing its every province.
A conquered prov become a core only in own continent after 50y possession (no nationalism) if its culture is own state culture, deleted core by edit on lost prov at the end of session. No change about culture in a conquered prov.
Moving own capital (and its manu or buildings) in same continent is allowed (cost = 50d) with land connection and positive stab. Ask the GM cosmetic edits (reasonable things).
About eternal alliances: MA will last 2 sessions at max, then they should be confirmed.

AI Nations
Minimal LT values for Nations of exotic tech group will be considered after every session.
Deflation for exotic tech Nations 1 % after every session (exceptional year event).
Same edits as above for state cultures and cores.

Rewards to humans:
- for an AAR reward You can choose among 1 deflation (-1%), 1 badboy reduction (-2), a conversion, money (250d), 1 fortress increasing, 1 DP slider change;
- to 1st player reaching LT = 5: improvement of fortress in capital (+1);
- to 1st player reaching NT = 11: 50 warships;
- to 1st player reaching Trade level = 4: a refinery;
- to 1st player to reach Infra level = 5: badboy reduction (-5);
- to 1st player having all medium fortresses: a step in a tech
- for weaker one in stats is 1000d tech investment + 1 DP slider change;
- for every vanished starting AI Nation 100d;
- for loser in a human war (lost provs, vassalization, …) war indemnities will be 100d/y (or 50d/y + 0.5/y deflation).

Penalties to humans:
- for not communicated absences or repeated delays: no compensation;
- for (human or AI) map trading is stab hit -3 and previous situation;
- for insisting in putting pirates: lost of colonies or TPs.
Edits to decrease badboy if it's above 50 by releasing vassals or losing provs. Eidts to decrease inflation above 35 % by losing money (or having loans) after the session.

Interesting dynamic missions (helped by friend Balinus) for humans: historical, unhistorical, usual missions with dates (wars, colonization, cores, crusades, religion, trade, vassals, tech, conversions) and their rewards.
 
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Dr Bob said:
Pirate guards are forbidden?
Yes, everybody knew that behaviour and exercised them. Let's try by the right way.

Dr Bob said:
Breaking a truce at negative stab?
It's an old trick to avoid stab hit (-5) ...

Dr Bob said:
No random events?
Eventlist in ElioGC.txt is enough for a MP game (and will be improved ...).
There will be many GM edits too as special helps or damages.

Dr Bob said:
TPs really should not have a points score
You're right! A TP will count for 0, a colony for half, a CoT for 2.
 
what day do you plan to play ?
 
Dr Bob said:
Wednesdays 19:00 CET I think

tnx but nvm

i can play wednesdays but don't got time to do aar's so probaly shouldn't join anyway


Penalties to humans:
- for no AAR is +1 % to inflation;
 
admiral drake said:
tnx but nvm

i can play wednesdays but don't got time to do aar's so probaly shouldn't join anyway


Penalties to humans:
- for no AAR is +1 % to inflation;

I think that drake is right - there should be no penalty for not writing AAR's - AAR's are optional - and reward is optional - considering proposed bonuses, not writing them is ebough punishment for a player. :rolleyes:
 
Faello said:
I think that drake is right - there should be no penalty for not writing AAR's - AAR's are optional - and reward is optional - considering proposed bonuses, not writing them is ebough punishment for a player. :rolleyes:


it is indeed :D I agree with Faello
 
Elio Vasa said:
Well, this is a discussion thread:
that GM's position didn't work for Rush of Titans too.
If it's an obstacle for admiral Drake it disappeared from rules.
Now I'm curious about his intentions about my game.

after thinking about it i can't join afterall, i got a game few houres after your game + have to get up rather early day after so would be rather to play both games till the end
 
Hi there EV
Taking up your offer to play if it's on Wednesday at 19.00 CET. Prefer as country Castille (I think), but if it isn't possible, well any will do. (First MP game, so can't be picky). Just not China, way too far from the center of the universe :D
 
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Elio,

In the previous campaign there were some problems because rules were unclear and it was not always that easy to get a clarification from you. IMO this is the most important thing to change. If everyone agrees to the rules before no one complains when they are applied.

The quarrel between the Eire player and the French player in the 17th century was based upon different views on what was allowed and what was not.

The 2nd most important thing is to get reliable players. The previous campaign failed in that, at the end it was ruined by a bunch of Russian players whose "Russian Series"-day was changed from X to Friday (which was the day of Rush of Titans) and they just decided to quit the campaign because of that (without telling anyone, it was pure coincidence I ICQed them 30 minutes before the game started and got to know it).

-----------

Now some suggestions how to improve the suggested rules.

1. Map trading

I believe map trading between humans is an interesting feature, it involves diplomacy, economy and skill to handle. Everything that involves skill should be encouraged, not stopped.


2. Autosend merchants

If anyone is so stupid he chooses to austosend merchants: well all the better for his opponents. And I do think one should avoid using the word "please" in rules.


3. Your lists of things you will edit

IMO this was the 3rd problem in the previous campaign. You edited too much. Only edit clear breaks of a rule would be my recommendation.

a) Your rule about editing back manus burned by an enemy army is doubtful, it is a game feature after all. Of course start-and-stop orders for an army with an objective to destroy the manu should be forbidden. And then the manu should be given back.

b) ToT violations

This I simply do not understand. Are you saying that if a nations (a catholic nation?) colonises in the ToT area you will edit the colonies/TPs to SPA or POR? I see no reason whatsover for this.

c) "suddenly religious changes to get bonuses"
This is unclear; all religious changes gives bonuses, else no one would change her religion, and all changes are sudden, they take place when you press the button for it

d) sending loans to AI nations

This one is very hard to police, only if the host sees it you can detect it; rules that cannot be supervised should be avoided.

e) not paying loans;

There is a penalty for not paying loans (a CB), why should we have a rule about it? Do not interfer with game play too much, if anyone wants to make another player mad at him (and surely get a DOW sooner or later) let him do it, it is up to him.

f) releasing vassals during a losing war

While I agree with your intention it the inclusion of the word "losing" opens up a can of worms, because two person may disagree what is a losing war; better to have a rule like "you are not allowed to release a vassal during a war", simple as that.

g) abuse about War Exhaustion

I do not understand this; rules like this is absolutely forbidden. Rules must be crystal clear!!!!! I assume that what you mean is that it is forbidden to DOW a player that suffers from high WE. Well, if so say so and be specific about what "high" is, and do note that WE is different in cores and non-cores and when you are DotF it is different in state religion provinces and other provinces. And I don't care much for this rule anyway. And neither do you Elio, you remember when you as Morocco DOWed me in RoT when I had been in war with Austria, Eire and SPA for some 10 years IIRC? So just skip this rule. You won't follow it yourself. :)

h) one galley pirate-guard, galleys in the three Oceans

I do not understand this, do you say that galleys are forbidden in the three Oceans? If so you must explicitly define what "Ocean" means. For example it is common practice to use galleys in those parts of the Atlantic that includes coastal provinces in Europe. And I see no reason to forbid that nor pirate-guards either, if people believe it is smart play, then let them play like that.

i) ruining a Country: I’ll accept badboy till 50 and inflation till 35 %.

Unclear rule again. If you refer only to BB and inflation then say so, if not say what you mean. And what happens if they go above? How will you penalise them? If they exceed BB 50 will you give them extra inflation? Be clear. Do not give yourself a blank editing right, say exactly what will happen (e.g. if you go above 50 BB the action by which you got above will be cancelled) and if you are above 35% inflation at a session's end you will get your inflation edited down to 35% and get your present monarch's ADM skill changed for e.g. -3 the rest of his life).

j) Everyone should clean own coasts from sighted pirates;

I strongly disagree, it is up to each one to chose if he wants to fight pirates or not. Assume e.g. that a nation do not trade much, then he mostly helps his opponents if he fights pirates

k) Vile aggressions, backstabbings, lies, war fierceness, quarrellings could be discussed by GM;

You got advised about the wiseness of this rule before you started the previous campaign as well. Now you intend to have it again. The error is simply that is to vague. What does it mean? And why should backstabbing or "war fierceness" be disallowed and edited? I am a peaceful player myself but I certainly won't critisise anyone who whises to waste his money on wars. Much better for me if he does. This rule should be deleted. The "quarrel" part can be left in, it says the selfevident: that the GM should intervene in quarrels.

The important thing to understand is that quarrels normally occur only because of unclear rules. The few other cases where quarrels occur are caused by players who insult other players. And that should be dealt with harshly by the GM.

If you have a rule like this there is bound to appear someone that believes another player displays "vile agressiveness" or whatever and another who disagrees, and then you may well have your quarrel. It it rules lökes this that creates the quarrel.

4. Special dynamic missions can be discussed with GM.

I strongly dislike if someone makes a secret deal with the GM and gains some favour if he does this or that. I wonder if anyone likes it.


5. No human alliances, but possible agreed wars; 1 vs 1 war is favourite one by GM at the same tech ranking (edited by GM before session).

Do not say what is favourite of yours. Say what is allowed and what is not. And what about GM editing tech levels? I would never enter a game where you would have the right to edit the tech levels of a perm. The only situation when that can be done is if a player leaves the game after ruining it and a new player enters and all agree to the edit.

6. Peace offers: 3 provs rule from enemy (5 from an alliance) always and everywhere (colonies count for ½, CoT for 2):
core provs as first.

a) I assume you mean "one must ask for core provinces before any other provinces", then write so.

b) No turbo-annexion.

Well, turboannexation is the final punishment to the player who do not give up when his nation is in severe danger. To risk is that is similar to ruining your nation. Note: it is not the turboannexer who does something bad (if we are talking about two human players) it is the one being turboannexed. You need to be more clear here
- do you only refer to turboannexation between humans
- what will you edit? I can envisage many situation when the turbonnexer strongly wants an edit because the provinces he gains are of the wrong religion or so, and then you can be kind to him and edit them back to his opponent, but never edit if the annexer likes the situation, he simply outplayed his opponent who choose to destroy his nation and thus that player should immediately be thrown out of the game because his ethical standard is not high enough to be allowed to take part in the game

c) War claims can be declared before DoWing.

But why, are there any consequences of declaring war claims? Is it if you declare it at some other time? Simply do not interfer with war claims. If anyone changes his mind let him do so. It is up to the rest of the players to balance this out if he asks for too much

7. NAP (max 15y) or fixed borders must be declared and respected.

What is a "fixed border"?

8. Human player must accept GM’s peace offer at stab -3 with 99 % WS: don’t ruin a Nation.

It is not the GM that should offer peace, it is the player. In a situation like this the one offering the peace simply pauses the game and says: WS is now -99 and my opponent is at -3 stab, do you agree opponent? And better add a third requsite: that the war has been going one between these two nations for at least X years (say 3), else quick wars when opponent already is at -2 or -3 at the time of the DOW can result in what we would consider unfair wins.

9. With forced vassalization you must wait for 10y to cancel it (maybe with a new war too).

No "maybe"'s in a rules.

10. Gangbangs can be declared by GM if the competition seems killed.

This rule should simple be deleted. Comments unnecessary after what happened in hte previous campaign. If one nation gets too strong because the rest of the players are too timid then he simply won the game. It is imperative that you understand that we do not play this game because we wish to fulfil your dreams of having a full campaign of your own played from start to the end: we play if for our own joy, you are our servant, we are not your puppets.

11. You can’t DoW human player that already fights with 4 enemies.

What if that human player has 5 allies? So he is actually 5 to 4 in the current war? Or say it would have been a normal campaign and he is mighty FRA making war together with ENG, OE and AUS vs Venice, Holland, Portugal and Poland... would not I as say SWE be allowed to DOW France?

What is it you mean? Say exactly that and nothing else.

Good luck! :)
 
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Daniel A said:
The 2nd most important thing is to get reliable players. The previous campaign failed in that, at the end it was ruined by a bunch of Russian players whose "Russian Series"-day was changed from X to Friday (which was the day of Rush of Titans) and they just decided to quit the campaign because of that (without telling anyone, it was pure coincidence I ICQed them 30 minutes befire the game started and got to know it).

I'm reliable player - If I have time - altough, because of coming session on my university, I may need subs ( even for a long period of time ). If it's going about quitting - I may quit from 3 reasons - if GM's decisions are unjust/ game is boring/work will kill my free time - that's why I cannot say that I will not quit this game - first, I have to see how it will look like ;)

If it's going about the rules - I've no time to read them now - I will express my opinions about this matter later.
 
Faello said:
game is boring
Bah, its the responsibility of the players to made the game exciting and so i really think that this is the most unviable reason to resign :). Even the most unimportant power can influence the others so that they get their thumbs out of their asses and start doing things that liven up the game.
Of course, if some players have key positions in certain nations and retain a view of "balance" or "fairness", then its really impossible to make them change their minds (the obvious effect of such a view being a boring game, of course!) and thus it could sometimes be allowed to leave in protest :).
 
Mulliman said:
Bah, its the responsibility of the players to made the game exciting and so i really think that this is the most unviable reason to resign :). Even the most unimportant power can influence the others so that they get their thumbs out of their asses and start doing things that liven up the game.
Of course, if some players have key positions in certain nations and retain a view of "balance" or "fairness", then its really impossible to make them change their minds (the obvious effect of such a view being a boring game, of course!) and thus it could sometimes be allowed to leave in protest :).

Believe me, if I will feel that game is boring, I will give certain reasons, why it is.
During my mp playing, I've never ever quitted because of this reason - in fact, never quitted at all - but I want to have emergency door, if I will be in such situation :rolleyes:
 
Well, the roster is in progress.
Pls, Daniel A, join the game only if You accept game rules,
to suggest anything edit posts with 1 single demand and I'll answer about it.
About pls no autosend merchants
I noticed that it often happened and there can be rookies here, don't forget it. It isn't a rule and no penalty for it, just an advice for newbies.
 
Elio, while Daniel may be a little ehm...obsessed by rules, he has made some good points. It is up to you to decide what the rules will be, but he has made some good suggestions how some rules can be made understandable.

There are two rules I am interested in at the moment. I don't understand what you mean by ToT violations. :confused:
And the abuse of WE is a bit vague. By who and how would this be abused?

BTW; no random events at all? :eek: