Do Free Cities need to be reworked further?

[Whiskeyjack-5691]

Probably my biggest complaint with Free Cities right now is that the RNG often ends up making them a jumbled mess, with seemingly no sense or synergy between their race, culture, upgrade packs, etc. The most glaring part of this are Society Traits, as some of them simply don't do anything for a Free City.

There's a whole other conversation to be had about the balancing of Society Traits and how some are just objectively good or bad picks, but Free Cities can really get shafted because of how a lot of Society Traits are just completely useless to them. Out of the 35 Society Traits in the game right now, only about half of them actually provide any benefit when used by a Free City - and out of those, about half again provide only part of their overall effects.

A Free City of something like... Industrious Orcs with Corpse Eating and Great Builders for example will be an alright-ish addition to any empire; at the very least, they can provide cheap meatshields thanks to the Corpse Eating ability and some extra gold from quarries.
Unfortunately, because of the RNG, you're far more likely to find some nonsensical setup like Mystic Summoning Lizardfolk with Imperialists and Chosen Uniters or something, neither of which provide the Free City - either in battles or on the overworld - with any benefit whatsoever. That's not to say the player will never find a place or niche for Free Cities with less-then-optimal setups, but I think the RNG really does a number on Free Cities more than on any other aspect of gameplay, and - I feel at least - this makes you less inclined to really interact with Free Cities beyond farming them for the Rally of the Lieges.

The most straightforward way Free Cities could be made a little better would be by adding a library of pre-made Free Cities into the game with setups that actually synergize and make sense. But this won't solve the issue with Society Traits and how half of them don't function at all when paired with Free Cities.

Personally, I think Society Traits should come with some kind of "sub-effect" that only affects Free Cities; like a diluted, or lightweight version of their main/parent effect.
Chosen Uniters for example could work so that Free Cities provide twice as many units to the Rally of the Lieges, or an additional Whispering Stone when integrated.
Ancient Wise Ones might provide a certain amount of knowledge per population of the Free City's race that is in your empire as another example.

Alternatively, Free Cities could have their own set of unique Society Traits that have similar effects to the main ones, similar to how Upgrade Packages simulate a Free City's research into Tomes and whatnot.

Whatever the case or however Triumph does it... I'd still very much like a "Free City Creator" mechanic...

 

[seperamos]

I hate how close they have to be to throne cities.

 

[Deus von Vult]

I have two problems with free cities. Sometimes they spawn right next to you. I mean nearly on top of you! I had one run where the free city was friendly and one run where the city immediatley declared war. Both weren´t great runs, because the friendly city wasted all their armies fighting one stack against 3 doom stacks. And the enemy free city pillaged and attacked me nearly from round one, which wasn´t really fun.

I had like maybe 4 or 5 tiles between me and the free city. This is WAY to close!

 

[Whiskeyjack-5691]

They do have a tendency to spawn waaaay to close to you sometimes, I'll agree there.

 

[Azktor]

I hate how close they have to be to throne cities.

THAT! I just hate that, I usually play witth Very Large Maps, And the traits that make cities starting with extra population, but I also make them more rare. They just sometimes lock you in entirely in the early game.

 

[Kaiosama TLJ]

I do like the "sub-effect" idea for Free Cities/Vassals, it can be a good motivation to even fight (either by diplomacy or war) for the Vassalage of a random Free City with a certain Society Trait in it, or even as an incentive to Vassalize some Cities of your own Faction. Here are4 some examples that I quickly came up with:

• Vigilante Knights - You can ask Free Cities with this Trait for a Bounty to deal with a troublesome group of marauders. (it could be either a random Infestation that will spawn for this quest or a bandit stack led by a powerful Hero)
• Bannerlords - Units from this Free City cost -30% less in the Rally of the Lieges.
• Devotees of Good - This Free City will always have Pure Good Aligment. Units from this Free City gain +1 Defense, +1 Resistance, and +10% Damage when fighting in friendly territory. War Parties of this Free City will only Pillage Speljammers.
• Relentless Crusaders - This Free City will send War Parties against Evil Free Cities and Empires quicker than usual.
• Ruthless Raiders - War Parties from this Free City take -1 less Turn (minimum of 1) to Pillage Provinces and yields +20% more rewards to it's Overlord.
• Chosen Destroyers -This Free City will always have Pure Evil Aligment. Units from this Free City will gain +1 Defense, +1 Resistance, and +10% Damage. It will send War Parties more often, but it will always declare War, Peace cannot be negotiated with them, and they can never be Vassalized. Raizing or Migrating these Cities will not be considered an Act of Evil. (the intention for this is to not only be "thematic", but to also have Free Cities that would be more of a "threat" to you, like "glorified" Infestations)
• Druidic Terraformers - This Free City has access to 3 random Tier III Elemental Units. (only base ones, Elementals from the Giant Kings DLC don't count)
• Talented Collectors - This Free City counts as a random Magic Material.
• Fabled Hunters - Food Trade deals for either Gold or Mana with this Free City are always present, in addition to the standard random ones. (I mean, they need to sell the extra meat to someone, right?)
• Umbral Discliples - This Free City has access to 3 random Umbral Demon Units.
• Reclaimers - Free City grants +5 Binding Essence Income. Binding Essence and Binding Fragments Trade deals are also available in addition to the standard random ones. (these, however, cannot be reduced by Silver Tongued)

 

[Arcantos_the_Storyteller]

Honestly, I hadn’t stopped and thought about it before. I didn’t even consider the fact that Free Cities have society traits like we do, but now you pointed it out to me, and I sit and look at it. Well, it's extremely easy to tell there are a lot of traits that give absolutely nothing to the Free Cities. All the society traits that deal with Free Cities or Rally of the Lieges, to say the least, and I’m not sure if they can claim Wonders themselves, for Wonder Architect?

The quick and dirty option would be to just make some traits non-Free City pickable, and that would give the Free Cities a useful bump, but they would still remain extremely boring and generally uninteractive. Taking the society traits that currently do nothing for and modifying them when applied to Free Cities to have their own, unique effects is fantastic, especially if we take the more unique suggestions from Kaiosama, such as the Vigilante Knights, Chosen Destroyers or Reclaimers. But why not go one step further?

If the Vigilante Knights can generate quests, why not have all free cities have a means of asking for quests that you can take to help build allegiance with them? Something to make interacting with them more engaging and proactive beyond ‘Oh, a Free City? Whispering Stone, Imperium, and done’. That alone would help make the Free Cities significantly regarding the role they play in a game, and how easily or not they might be cut without impacting an AoW4 game in a meaningful way. Of course, what the Quests might be, could depend on their society traits, or at least their affinities, with only one or two society traits (like the Vigilante Knights) having special, unique quests to further interactions with them.

And what about rewards for Vassalization instead of just integrating them? Well, how about the society traits that have special ‘Vassalization bonuses’? Small, unique bonuses related to the society trait that you gain access to as a Vassal, but lose if you integrate them into the Empire? Make it a harder choice to decide if you want to integrate a Free City, a cost, a downside to integrating them that simply isn’t there currently. Currently, even with society traits giving you bonuses for having Free City vassals, I’m not impressed by how useful they are and don’t seem to be enough to stop you from integration as soon as the option is there.

Finally, Trade. Is there a way to make it so we can choose what we give in Trade? Sure, Gold for Mana, and Mana for Gold is nice. But why can’t we sell our excess food or production? Help the city state grow in a more direct manner, and make late-game food and production more useful by funnelling it into our city states and trading them for gold, mana, or even research? Heck, we can give AI factions gifts of gold to make them like us more (which can be spammed to absolutely ludicrous amounts). So why can’t we give Free Cities gifts of gold, or maybe even other resources, for allegiance bumps as well?

Really, there is so much more that can be done with Free Cities than how they are implemented currently.

 

[Astronlmo]

1) Spawn is a separate problem, it's just map generator.

2) Free cities are brainless. Which means you can't apply their society traits at all.

3) Since #2 there is no point in society traits for them at all. They should be disabled for them, actually, because mana addicts exist and they get morale penalty.

4) instead of applying society traits, in my opinion, it would be better to rework their specialisation into their behavior. Examples:
A) demonic apprentices. Have tier 1-3 fiend units, t1-2 tomes enchantments. Behavior - can randomly go pillaging without entering war. Won't pillage if vassals.
B) Corruption masters. In addition to what they have now, they should randomly create Umbral infestation marauding group near their territory. Have altar of marching gloom. Finally, at max stage of vassalisation, their war party should apply Umbral malady to the province where they positioned (so in combat it will be Umbral malady).
C) Masters of materium. Have double gold and iron nodes on their provinces. Units on their domain and near their war parties have 0 upkeep.

In other words, thematic interaction within their specialisation.
No society traits, since they can't use those (with very rare exceptions), those should be dormant until you capture them/integrate.

 

[stigmund77]

Free cities and vassals i think play a great role in the game right now, being able to provide a basic layer of defense through patrols through their lands and armies on their cities. They also provide for the war effort through their own armies as well as rally of the lieges. The fact we can use rally of the lieges to buff them makes them frankly my favorite vassalage system in a 4x game.

The best way to improve them in my opinion are behavioral changes and events linked to new sub society traits as suggested above as well as a loyalty mechanic. Here are a few examples

• Glory Hound: Occasionally asks their liege to declare war on unfriendly factions, if refused they will lose loyalty. Perk - will send slightly larger armies when at war.
• Raider: Occasionally will send out an army to raid lairs and nests on their own, will only offer their liege a small part of the treasure. May ask their liege to go to war against rich factions. Perk - will send attacks slightly more frequently than other vassals during war.
• Learned: Will occasionally ask for items or gold in return for research boosts. Refusing will effect loyalty, they may ask for their liege to war against barbarian like factions. - Perk - their heroes maintain a slightly higher level than other vassals.
• Defender: Will randomly spawn an army that patrols between all friendly vassal / lieges cities. If a friendly city is lost they lose loyalty.

1 event from your vassals will be randomly shuffled into the available events for the player at a time, this means you wont be overwhelmed with events but will still make your empire feel alive with different factions pushing for different things. Society traits will curve what kind of vassals appear when you release a city as a vassal, war based society traits would lean towards vassals created being Glory Hounds and Raiders, while research based traits will lead to more Learned vassals being released. This would let each empires interaction with their vassals feel more unique. If you have war traits your vassals will have larger armies but will demand war. Chosen Uniters could possibly change their vassals sub society traits by spending Imperium, allowing you to have a healthy mix of vassals.

Loyalty would allow for vassals to rebel against their liege, there could potentially be a new tome based on turning vassals against their lieges, similar to rogues in age of wonders 3 turning cities against their owners. Having a lot of vassals with these perks could form a weakness in itself if the liege isn't able to keep everyone loyal through events and whispering stones.

Also! please let us edit the names of our vassal heroes / cities.

 

[Stupid_Dragon]

I want non-vassal Free Cities to give quests via bounty system, e.g. targeting nearby infestations. Rewards are relationships and influnce with that city. I liked how City State quests worked in Civ5.

 

[Whiskeyjack-5691]

Another change I think could be really good is Free Cities providing Affinity points to their suzerain; the Affinities they provide is based on their Society Traits, and the amount improve relations with them and increase their vassalization level.

Would be an interesting way to give players another means of gaining different affinity points.

 

[Arcantos_the_Storyteller]

2) Free cities are brainless. Which means you can't apply their society traits at all.

3) Since #2 there is no point in society traits for them at all. They should be disabled for them, actually, because mana addicts exist and they get morale penalty.

Hard disagree, there is plenty of Society Traits they can use.
Hermit Kingdom, Great Builders, Perfection Artisans, Fabled Hunters, Ritual Cannibals, Ruthless Raiders, Subterranean Society, Drudic Transformers (if unable to fully leverage it), Talented Collectors, Experienced Seafarers and Prolific Swarmers.

Now, I do agree that as it stands, Free Cities can't use most society traits. Therefore, the idea of disabling Society Traits for City States and giving them their own selection of traits to use instead that affect how they grow, their behaviour in game, and what they offer to you in trade deals/rally of the lieges/as a vassal, is entirely valid. Just, the idea that there is no point of them having Soceity Traits is simply incorrect.

The fact we can use rally of the lieges to buff them makes them frankly my favorite vassalage system in a 4x game.

Not going to lie, I genuinely forget that this is an option, and it makes me wonder who else in this thread actually uses this possibility from Rally of the Lieges? Most of the time I just ignore the mechanic entirely.

Another change I think could be really good is Free Cities providing Affinity points to their suzerain; the Affinities they provide is based on their Society Traits, and the amount improve relations with them and increase their vassalization level.

Would be an interesting way to give players another means of gaining different affinity points.

While it would be an interesting way... we would probably have to cap the amount of affinity you can get from a Free City, because otherwise, they would likely be a too readily available source of affinity.

 

[Astronlmo]

Society traits do not affect combat (most of them), others can't be used correctly on free cities (like vigilante or imperialist). That is why it is better to leave them as dormant instead of trying to circumvent their brainless behavior and somehow balance. Just make those dormant and give them special behavior depending on their type.

It's not a rocket science. If stuff X can't be used in case Y, but can be used everywhere else, you don't change X. You make Z for Y specifically and adapt it to Y++ specifically.

 

[seperamos]

Society traits do not affect combat (most of them), others can't be used correctly on free cities (like vigilante or imperialist). That is why it is better to leave them as dormant instead of trying to circumvent their brainless behavior and somehow balance. Just make those dormant and give them special behavior depending on their type.

It's not a rocket science. If stuff X can't be used in case Y, but can be used everywhere else, you don't change X. You make Z for Y specifically and adapt it to Y++ specifically.

The simplest solutions are the best for these issues, due to the wide amount of variables in this system.

 

[Whiskeyjack-5691]

While it would be an interesting way... we would probably have to cap the amount of affinity you can get from a Free City, because otherwise, they would likely be a too readily available source of affinity.

Oh yeah, I don't mean you could get enough Affinity points from them to fill out a whole branch of the Affinity tree or anything. Just enough so that you could start picking up different signature skills for Heroes, or maybe the first one or two skills from different branches given enough time.

 

[Astronlmo]

The simplest solutions are the best for these issues, due to the wide amount of variables in this system.

Well, yeah.
Trying to make Brainless AI work with something that changes the playstyle IS actually a rocket science, and should be avoided.
As well as trying to change them to work with Brainless AI.
Especially when we already have their uniqu stuff.

 

[Arcantos_the_Storyteller]

Oh yeah, I don't mean you could get enough Affinity points from them to fill out a whole branch of the Affinity tree or anything. Just enough so that you could start picking up different signature skills for Heroes, or maybe the first one or two skills from different branches given enough time.

Honestly, I think you should only get 1-2 Affinity points at most. Like, either from the first Free City that gets to Flourishing Vassalage? Or maybe the first two, if each Free City only provides 1 Affinity instead of 2.

 

[Whiskeyjack-5691]

Honestly, I think you should only get 1-2 Affinity points at most. Like, either from the first Free City that gets to Flourishing Vassalage? Or maybe the first two, if each Free City only provides 1 Affinity instead of 2.

Yeah, I was thinking maybe just like 1 affinity point per level level of vassalization, so you max out at 4 Affinity points at Supreme Vassalage. But even that may be too much.

 

[seperamos]

Yeah, I was thinking maybe just like 1 affinity point per level level of vassalization, so you max out at 4 Affinity points at Supreme Vassalage. But even that may be too much.

What if vassalizing cities gave out order affinity points only? Should we get affinity points from vassals or wonder improvements or expansions?

Maybe the destruction of cities or demanding tributes of slaves could offer chaos or shadow points in the converse. I'm still unsure if cities should be the source of affinity points rather than wonders or tomes.

 

[Whiskeyjack-5691]

What if vassalizing cities gave out order affinity points only? Should we get affinity points from vassals or wonder improvements or expansions?

Maybe the destruction of cities or demanding tributes of slaves could offer chaos or shadow points in the converse. I'm still unsure if cities should be the source of affinity points rather than wonders or tomes.

Would have to disagree with Vassal cities only giving Order affinity; I feel like it would benefit Order-focused factions over others, and thematically wouldn't make sense if the Free City had a Chaos or Shadow Culture or Society Traits.

Wouldn't be opposed to Wonders giving affinity points though, but then I'd worry that there are too many sources of Affinity points.