Doesn't anything stay dead?

[Warhammer: 3025]

I was thinking a bit about all the different variants 'mechs have, from the original 3025-level tech to SLDF refits to 3050-era and beyond, and it occurred to me: in addition to new designs, every 'mech I could think of got a new factory-standard model eventually. Not just lostech or new-tech refits, but whole new factory production runs.

I couldn't think of a single kind of 'mech that died out and stayed dead.

Can anyone else think of any?

 

[Packrat]

Off the top of my head there's the Mackie, Von Rohrs, and Hector. I could probably find more if I looked. Most of the mechs that stayed dead were introduced to the franchise relatively recently to flesh out the early days of mech technology.

 

[Fiona Marshe]

as a weird aside the Mackie was resized from 50 tons (Battletechnology Magazine) to 100 tons (later publications). Never really made sense that the 'first' battlemech would be at the weight cap when the tech was still so new and bugged.

 

[WhiteChapel]

required

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

required

Why are those GOTtards (?) ripping off Lovecraft? May Cthulhu haunt them beyond eternity.

 

[Drunken_Firebat]

For that matter, check out the Experimental Technical Readout: Boondoggles.

It's great when a new design works. When it DOESN'T work, though... oh boy.

 

[Lardaltef]

It seems that mech designs died out only once the factory was destroyed. The Helepolis was one of those.

Nevermind. It died during the succession wars then was resurrected with a redesign after word of blake left Solaris VII when a company rebuilt a factory there. Still probably at least 100 years without any existing designs of that mech though.

 

[TaurianMerc]

For that matter, check out the Experimental Technical Readout: Boondoggles.

It's great when a new design works. When it DOESN'T work, though... oh boy.

Oh, some of those are great and so believable!

It seems that mech designs died out only once the factory was destroyed. The Helepolis was one of those.

Nevermind. It died during the succession wars then was resurrected with a redesign after word of blake left Solaris VII when a company rebuilt a factory there.

Lots of the "new-old" designs (those that came about more recently to flesh out the early years in things like XTROrimitives) were resurrected in the Jihad/Republic/Dark Age period when people were desperate for new mechs.

I don't think the Toro was resurrected - The SLDF flattened the factory and had Taurians build better designs because that would somehow stop them from rebelling?

 

[Lardaltef]

Oh, some of those are great and so believable!



Lots of the "new-old" designs (those that came about more recently to flesh out the early years in things like XTROrimitives) were resurrected in the Jihad/Republic/Dark Age period when people were desperate for new mechs.

I don't think the Toro was resurrected - The SLDF flattened the factory and had Taurians build better designs because that would somehow stop them from rebelling?

Just remembered one. The (50 ton not apocraphyl) Talos. I love the design. It is basically a centurion cn9-a but switches the lrm 10 for 2 5s. And an srm 6 replacing the 2 medium lasers (using the extra ton gained from the lrm switch). Also 1 ton of form ammo becomes srm. Still 2 tons of ac10 ammo. Same amount of armor 8.5 tons) same engine.

Factory wasn't destroyed but was rotated off production line in the reunification wars even though it was a success (popular with pilots and financially). So I think any left were destroyed or couldn't be maintained/repaired.

 

[Packrat]

The Helepolis and Toro were eventually revived, but the Talos was not, which is a shame because I'm quite fond of the Talos.

 

[Kutuzov1]

It seems that mech designs died out only once the factory was destroyed. The Helepolis was one of those.

Nevermind. It died during the succession wars then was resurrected with a redesign after word of blake left Solaris VII when a company rebuilt a factory there. Still probably at least 100 years without any existing designs of that mech though.

The Makie was first published in a mission pack (I think the first one in 1986) as a 100 tons mech.

 

[Fusilier01]

Honestly, a mech never dies, it just fades away. The only reason you wouldn't see a mech model anymore would be due to production demands. If a new design was built to replace an older model, the older model would disappear due to lack of parts. If an older design regained a resurgance in production, it be would because the design was shown to be battle tested and there was no need to go through an R&D phase to design a new mech or build new infrastructure to produce it.

 

[Warhammer: 3025]

If an older design regained a resurgance in production, it be would because the design was shown to be battle tested and there was no need to go through an R&D phase to design a new mech or build new infrastructure to produce it.

But there are new versions of 'mechs that were (in-universe at least) famously bad designs, only kept around because every 'mech possible was pressed into service. Just a few examples include the Clint, described in text as being a cut-corner production full of shoddy craftmanship that was used by the manufacturer as a method of generating lucrative servicing contracts with unfortunate customers. Or the Whitworth, which had a massive design flaw that would cause the entire leg to break off during rough maneuvers. Both of these 'mechs got new production runs, despite having poor reputations and having their combat roles easily filled by other, more reputable and reliable designs.

 

[Fusilier01]

But there are new versions of 'mechs that were (in-universe at least) famously bad designs, only kept around because every 'mech possible was pressed into service. Just a few examples include the Clint, described in text as being a cut-corner production full of shoddy craftmanship that was used by the manufacturer as a method of generating lucrative servicing contracts with unfortunate customers. Or the Whitworth, which had a massive design flaw that would cause the entire leg to break off during rough maneuvers. Both of these 'mechs got new production runs, despite having poor reputations and having their combat roles easily filled by other, more reputable and reliable designs.

Just because a mech might have a poor reputation does not mean someone might not but it. If someone bought a Clint, it might because it be fulfilled their needs or it was the only unit with in thier budget. As long as the mech continues to be bought, the manufacturer will sell it.

As for why someone might buy a mech with a poorpreputation, you need to stop thinking in the abstract and look at the bigger picture: After the fall of the Star League, mechs are considered as the most powerful combat unit despite the fall in technology and production. Most planets would be defended by conventional vehicles, where even the lowly Locust or Clint would have the favored advantage.

 

[kbs666]

In the 3025 era the ability to retool these factories to produce some other model of mech was probably beyond most of the engineers working for the companies involved. In most cases the factories had been producing those mechs for several centuries at least. If the choice was between Clints and possibly no mechs at all of course they took more Clints.

 

[Warhammer: 3025]

I'm talking more about the 3050-era and onward, when technology recovered enough that whole new weapon systems, construction technologies, and 'mech designs started popping up all over the place. Continuing with the Clint as an example, the 5U and 6S versions were produced in the 3060s by the Lyran Alliance, at a time when many newer 'mech designs, or at least designs without the negative reputation of the Clint, were becoming available.

It makes sense to me that many older designs, no longer worth keeping around due to increasing availability of newly-designed and -manufactured replacements, would be retired from service - scrapped or mothballed. But, aside from some of the designs pointed out earlier in the thread, it seems that pretty much everything, no matter how troublesome to operate, stayed around well into the 3100s and beyond, constantly being upgraded with new tech. It would be as if the WW1-era FT-17 tank were still around today, except it now had guided missiles and networked computers.

 

[Kutuzov1]

Consider the Panzer IV and the Sherman. The last use of the Pz. IV was in the Golan Heights in 1967, 22 year after the end of WWII and of its production. The Shermans where still used around the world at least till the late '80. In some third world country they where in use till the '90. The last three where retired by Paraguay in 2018! And US production ended in 1944.
Mechs cost more, are produced by scattered industries around the galaxy, included those in the Periphery and retooling the factories require expertise that isn't always available.

BTW: the last FT-17s where used in Sicily (Italy) in 1943. Unmodified version, AFAIK.

So:
1) A lot of mech chassis are used and reused. Probably most of the parts are not the original components but an hodge podge of recovered materials, similar products from other firmsand jury rigged components;
2) New versions on old chassis are produced because retooling the factoring making the skeleton is too difficult, but changing the other components is relatively easy;
3) Sheer stubbornness. Some people is "sure" that the model can work well and continue to tinker with it in an attempt to make it work. As long as someone in the Periphery or other backward planet is willing to buy it, they can go on producing them;
4) For some: ease of maintenance. Variants of the main weapon of the Clint, the AC/5, can be found anywhere, so it is "easy" to keep it working.

 

[Fusilier01]

I'm talking more about the 3050-era and onward, when technology recovered enough that whole new weapon systems, construction technologies, and 'mech designs started popping up all over the place. Continuing with the Clint as an example, the 5U and 6S versions were produced in the 3060s by the Lyran Alliance, at a time when many newer 'mech designs, or at least designs without the negative reputation of the Clint, were becoming available.

It makes sense to me that many older designs, no longer worth keeping around due to increasing availability of newly-designed and -manufactured replacements, would be retired from service - scrapped or mothballed. But, aside from some of the designs pointed out earlier in the thread, it seems that pretty much everything, no matter how troublesome to operate, stayed around well into the 3100s and beyond, constantly being upgraded with new tech. It would be as if the WW1-era FT-17 tank were still around today, except it now had guided missiles and networked computers.

The 3050-era was more about refits of old designs with new technology rather than building or redesigning old designs.

With the discovery of the Helm Data core in 3028 by the, it took several years for the information to spread across the Inner Sphere and almost another decade to understand the technological inner workings. So, assuming by 3040-3044ish that all the R&D is finished and factories have retooled to produce new technologies for refits of pre-3050 mechs, we arrive just in for the Clan Juggernaut which tableflips everything sideways with the destruction of those recently upgraded mechs, factories destroyed or taken over by the Clans, and a scramble to shift focus on upgrading any unit left standing to combat the Clans. It isn't til 3055-58 TROs that you start to see whole new designs built with new technologies, including Inner Sphere Omnimechs.

As others have given examples, I would like to mention the M113 armored personal carrier, designed in 1962 by the US military. Many were produced and over half a centuary, you can be still find these m113s across the world repurposed for a different role.

 

[TaurianMerc]

It would be as if the WW1-era FT-17 tank were still around today, except it now had guided missiles and networked computers.

Not really an exact comparison, in BT terms the FT-17 would be primitive tech, like, well everything covered in the XTRO Primitive series really.
Even the 3145 era mechs have pretty much the same basic setup as the SW era mechs - a reactor to provide power, a chassis with legs for motion and then whatever equipment added to that. A more accurate fit would be naval vessels (if we ignore the problem of corrosion of course) you have an engine and a hull everything else is added on to that- if we suddenly needed lots of naval vessels, would be better to spend time designing and testing and then redesigning a new ship, or do you take an existing one and arm it with new weapons?

As for equipment in use for a long time, i know it's not in the same league but i give you the humble Soyer Stove. A field stove designed by the celebrity chef Alexis Benoit Soyer, to improve the conditions for the British Soldier during the Crimean War (1853-1856). The last of the British Army's stocks of Soyer Stoves were lost when the Atlantic Conveyor was sunk in 1982 - almost 130 years of service with only minor modifications (And before the jokes start - yes the British forces have always taken the attitude of "if it ain't broke don't fix it")

 

[BunglingLummox]

And before the jokes start - yes the British forces have always taken the attitude of "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

Although, of course, "not useful for the brewing of tea" is included in the British definition of "broke", which is one reason why our tanks have kettles.