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Dec 10, 2001
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In the latest Developer Diary update Sergei introduced an issue that has raised some interesting questions.
Originally posted by sergei
* Tweak in baby generation: now a woman can give birth to next child not sooner than 9 months after previous.
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Here's a summary (and one or two new ones). Your thoughts?
  • Actually "doing it"

    If a Lord (player or AI) happens to be away leading his armies on crusade for a while, will this curtail the spouse conceiving during that period (and thus a child being born in a time frame that equals crusade months + 9)?...or is there an underlying assumption that daddy sneaks home from the war periodically for a "quicky"? :D

    Legitimacy of heirs was a huge issue during this time period, and not only in cases where mistress X has a child that is alledged to have been sired by Duke Y. All sorts of weird and wonderful "traditions" and restrictions cropped up in society which had the pricipal function of ensuring that any child produced by the lady of the manor could be safely assumed to "belong" to the lord...rather than the butler. :)
  • Can it be done?

    Are there actual restrictions on the woman's age? Presumably it's unlikely that a woman could conceive at much younger than 13 years of age and hence give birth to her first child when she's 14 or so...and one would presume that somewhere around 40 would be the upper limit to her child-bearing years (assuming she lived that long).
  • Can you do it and live?

    On a related note...the chance of mother & child dying in child birth would probably increase as she ages...and the frequency that she might get pregnant would probably be reduced too.
  • Can you do it really well?

    Is there any chance of twins (or triplets) being born? If so, is this taken into account vis a vis succession?
  • What happens when you do it?

    Any chance that certain hereditary traits might make the Lord "shoot blanks"...or the Lady infertile? There were definitely cases whereby a marriage simply wasn't capable of conceiving....no matter how hard they tried. ;)

Any other related things for consideration?
 
Well, MrT, I think you cover the subject fairly extensively, but what about when all is shot and done, or said and done, and the results arrive? :D


What are the odds of having a loonie bin of children? I mean, royalty and nobility have a strong penchant for inbreeding. :)
 
Originally posted by Norgesvenn
Well, MrT, I think you cover the subject fairly extensively, but what about when all is shot and done, or said and done, and the results arrive? :D


What are the odds of having a loonie bin of children? I mean, royalty and nobility have a strong penchant for inbreeding. :)
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but was is so widespread in early midieval europe? seriously, at that time, the inbreeding was far less common and many commoners rose to ranks of nobility through deeds and acts.

remember, we are not talking about 1913 europe-everybody ruling a country is my cousin, we are talking about the very birth of feudalism. i think the inbreeding shouldnt be such a huge issue and dementia or genetic degenaration should be as random as with any other two individuals.

the death at childbirth should definately be featured as childbearing at that age was far more risky than it is nowadays.

and finally twins, how common was it really. i dont remember too many instances. there are always exceptions but were they sufficient enough to warrant engine alteration? besides, even having one child was demanding on the mother. imagine she has two organisms weakening her in this trying era? just my thoughts.

i think 1 child a year would be a good limit on childbearing allowing the 9 month incubation and also alllow 3 months for the mother to 'recover'.

on the by note, this game sounds better and better. :D
 
Those are all very good questions, Chris. Without addressing them individually, I will make broad, general statements.

It occurs to me that "daddy" being away is an important issue in terms of siring children, but that implementation would be horribly complicated and buggy. I might be content to let this one slide, if only because the programmers can spend weeks just trying to get it to work right.


In terms of fertility and age of the wife, that should be easy to implement. Simple ratios and percentages would make that work nicely. We also need death in childbirth implemented, since that was a major reason women died during the period, noble or otherwise.

Twins and triplets might be fun, but would they be necessary in the game? And wouldn't they cause more problems with succession than they are worth?


However, I do have an interesting problem to propose. In the real life of the period, it was entirely possible that a line would die out. Depending on how strict you want to define a particular family, it is possible to have no male heirs and thus you dynasty will die out. How will this be implemented? Will the game just end, with whatever score you have? Will you get to "take over" a closely related, but relatively minor dynasty, and continue play? Will your vassals, whom you might be married into, claim the title of your famliy and you control them and fight for your old family's lands? None of the above? Or will the game always allow player dynasties to have some sort of succession to the throne?
 
Besides, "Dad being in Outremer while child sired" may give some good opportunities for AAR writers to exploit. :) :D

Inbreeding was surely common in medieval societies, as both social and physical mobility was much lower than today.
 
Originally posted by MrT

...
Legitimacy of heirs was a huge issue during this time period, and not only in cases where mistress X has a child that is alledged to have been sired by Duke Y. All sorts of weird and wonderful "traditions" and restrictions cropped up in society which had the pricipal function of ensuring that any child produced by the lady of the manor could be safely assumed to "belong" to the lord...rather than the butler. :)

...
Click to expand...

DNA tests will easily sort any problems...:D
 
The king could have lot's and lot's of children if you count the mistress, that must be a pain in the arse to simulate
 
Originally posted by Ladislav
but was is so widespread in early midieval europe? seriously, at that time, the inbreeding was far less common and many commoners rose to ranks of nobility through deeds and acts.

remember, we are not talking about 1913 europe-everybody ruling a country is my cousin, we are talking about the very birth of feudalism. i think the inbreeding shouldnt be such a huge issue and dementia or genetic degenaration should be as random as with any other two individuals.
Click to expand...


This brings up an interesting point, one which I have not heard addressed, the issue of consanguinity.

Will the church be able to stop you from marrying someone too closely related to you, and if so will these restrictions ease over the course of the game time frame as they did historically?

If there are these restrictions the issue of dispensation come into play also, and will that be covered in the game?

What of dowries?

Marriage and inheritance were incredibly complicated things back in these days. Dowry negotiations could take years, and the contracts would put our contracts to shame. Inheritance issues could be appealed in court, and very often were by several competing claimants.

Since I know nothing of programming, I can't speak for the complexity of coding such matters, but it seems to me this would be an important part of any strategy game attempting to recreate this era.

Feudalism was about personal connects, and nothing was as personal and few things as monumental in shape the era's diplomacy and politics.

Just my two cents...don't spend them all at once.

~EC~
 
As for the whole infertility thing, I definitely think it would be realistic, but what happens if you cannot produce an heir? Does the game just end? That doesn't sound like it would be too much fun . . . .
 
Another question is whether you would have dedicate some of your time (action-wise) to attempt to sire a heir (this is how it was done in the old but good Genghis Khan 2 game) or will the process be simulated automatically as sort of "implied"?

If the former, would you be informed that your wife is pregnant so that you can take a break from the martial bed and actually rule your country for a bit, or would you have to do "it" constantly to make sure you get some kid in the end? :p

If the latter, would personal characteristics of the monarch (such as charisma or whether he prefers boys :D) be in any way simulated and affect the "chance" of implied conception?

Questions, questions, questions... :cool:
 
Originally posted by I_Killed-Kenny
The king could have lot's and lot's of children if you count the mistress, that must be a pain in the arse to simulate
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If the King's romantical endavours can be described as the "pain in the arse" situation, I don't think you would get many heirs :D
 
Well twins, triplets and even more might be very interesting......

I mean, of all the times when the passing of the throne becomes dicey, twins, espially twins born almost one after another, become very a very delicate dance.

Anyway, what is going to be the minimum age of procreation in this game? Is it going to be real-life based where it can be quite young (8 yrs for females, 10 for males is not unkown for marriages in this time...and 9 for females in the heathen lands on Islam is quite common...well maybe not, common, but definatky not unheard of.

As far as producing an heir while away....well adultry was rampant in both partners, which brings up another complication for both instances of illigetimate heirs from both partners.
 
Originally posted by Wannes
Yep the royal courts were crowded with royal bastards... :D...
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William the Bastard was relitively rare in eastern Christian history though- royal bastards where immideately castrated, which made the Throne untouchable.
 
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