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Codias

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Hi guys - I have a group of players that participate in a weekly LAN game and I was hoping I could get some sets of house rules that the various groups around here use for their games. Our games currently rely mostly on game rules and that naturally leads to some situations that end up being bad for the MP experience as a whole.

We play the 1936 Scenario - Typical player-countries are France, (to be USA if/when they die) UK, Germany, Italy, Japan, USSR.

Any contributions are appreciated - I'd love to see several sets of rules so that I can try to cover all of the bases before presenting a set of rules rather than add rules in as issues are found. (That's especially tough to do since sometimes players think you are trying to change the rules for you own advantage rather than for the good of the game <sigh>)

Thanks!
 
I think the rules have to reflect what kind of game you intend on playing.

Historical to a T? Or are you more interested in the most balanced enjoyable experience possible.

For example. While the Soviet Union is a juggernaut one on one for Germany, when adding in minor axis powers the Soviet player can be overwhelmed through micromanagement.

For example, Romania could end up directing the southern front while Germany runs the northern front, all the while Italy is attacking through the caucausus. Too many places for one person to be paying attention to. Lets not even throw in the idea that Japan may invade Siberia.

Rules generally are designed around preserving the historical integrity of the game.

For example, the US is not allowed to get involved in any conflicts prior to Japan declaring war, or key portions of the Soviet Union being lost. This is a very common rule.

Axis nations cannot declare war on a nation diplomatically before the Danzig event. Events which launch wars are acceptable.
Again, this is a common rule.

These rules however are designed around providing a historical progression of time, results may differ. Generally from reading AAR's the Soviets get steam rolled and the Allies are ineffectual against the Axis.

My friends and I when we play, have gone away from the Axis/Allies/Comintern games. Generally we now play either as Axis/Allies or Comintern/Allies. There is a very simple reason for this. It is easier to balance the game and establish a final showdown between the players in a WW3 type scenario.

While playing with Allies, Axis and Soviets someone gets the shaft early. If you don't have enough Axis players Germany simply gets crushed. If you have too many Axis players the Soviets cannot cope with the micromanagement and onslaught of divisions. That means for the duration of your Lan weekend, someone is on the sidelines watching.

So we now play Allies vs Axis OR Comintern. Overall the games are a fair bit more enjoyable for all involved, IF replaying history is not priority number 1 ;p

So, decide how you want to play. Then address the pitfalls which might crop up. You don't want the USA to decide to be fascist and invade Canada in 1939, this will ruin the game for the remaining Allies as American support is absolutely vital for Allied success and enjoyment.
 
Common problems in our games that may need house rules

Here are some common problems that we're encountering in our Doomsday Games.

Now mind you I admire historical accuracy but I feel it should follow a close second to game balance and enjoyment of the players.

Allies exploiting Spanish Civil war to get war-time bonus - Allies can more or less jump into this war early and can maintain the war indefinitely through military control and simply cornering Nat Spain in a cornor or Iberia.

Possible solutions would be:

Declaring that no humans can directly intervene in the civil war.

Forbidding humans from using military control. (Rep Spain would likely win eventually)

Other suggestions/experiences are welcome. The Allied Humans are UK and France.

Free lending of divisions to non-allied countries - New to Doomsday, this is a great feature that unfortunately leaves a ton of room for exploitation. Want the Soviets to invade Japan? Just give them your entire "old" fleet when you're the US! Rules and restraints need to be applied.

Possible Solutions

No unit trading - This would be very restrictive and unfortunate to implement in my opinion.

Unit trading only with countries you are allied with - Seems to be the best option, in my opinion.

Other solutions welcome.

Italy is a problem in all of our games lately.

Italy always seems to start WWII. It's very easy to attack Italy if she takes any sort of action after Ethiopia, and her vulnerability puts Germany at a disadvantage in the '36 scenario. The main sources of this problem comes from independence guarantees by the Allies (free casus belli) and accellerated interventionist slider settings from taking non-historical route in Spanish Civil War.

Right now the only course of action I see for Italy (in vanilla '36 scenario) is to stand pat and simply wait for Germany. Unfortunately (in our games at least) the Allies are free to go unhindered into the Spanish Civil War and gain in strength while Germany is obliged to stay on a diplomatic island (due to Anschlus) and Italy is nothing but a parasitic luggard in Southern Europe that will start WW2 if she does anything at all to attempt to improve her situation.

Possible solutions:

lmplement above mentioned rule preventing anyone from intervening in the SCW. This will at least make things a bit more level between Axis v. Allies.

Increase Italian IC - Italy is struggling to do anything when it comes to how she's set up in the '36 scenario.

Give Italy shields on Yugo and Alb - this will help increase IC to a respectable level, but Italy will still not be able to take it until Germany's ready for WW2, simply because it's so easy for France to declare war on Italy if she's managing her sliders correctly.

Italy is just a problem for us - I don't know how to make it better for the player without throwing everything out of whack. We're not looking to make Italy into Germany Jr. - we simply want to let Italy actually enjoy building and creating a national identity in peace-time. Right now I feel Italy doesn't have the IC/Resources to do much of anything but be a pest.

Suggestions or examples of what anyone has done to help Italy is welcome - again this is in the '36 scenario.

Those are the main focal points when it comes to issues that I feel require some modifications/house rules.
 
Our Group House Rules:

No WW2 before Danzig event.
This is mainly to avoid fights and lets everyone plan their builds as they wish. We find that if dows happen too early some countries get crushed and eliminated.

No Human alliance with either Spain until Paris falls.
This our solution to people allying one Spain and being in perpetual war before Danzig. No exploits of the peacetime modifiers with this rule.

Italy cannot join axis until Paris Falls.
We've had problems with USSR being swamped by masses of modern axis troops so leaving Italy out till 1940ish means less uber modern troops on the eastern front.

Uk cannot move CW troops until Paris falls.
This balances the above rule as we find UK deploys huge CW forces to the med before war starts and swamps Italy. Now the UK cannot move its CW forces until war with Italy begins. We have an exclusion for the Canadian troops we let them deploy to either France or UK home islands.

USA is edited one gearing when Japan annexes and puppets Nat China. Japan annexing China gives 80 belligerence yet the puppeting removes it all, to make up for this silly exploit we edit Japanese belligerence back up to 45 and thus triggers the first USA gearing event. Which is needed to compensate for the 60 IC China Japan gets as a puppet.

USA cannot enter war until Japan dows, Japan can dow anytime after Jan 1 1941. With slider moves it is posisble for USA to enter war in 39 thus gaining full IC 2 years before rl. This unbalances the war and dooms the axis players.

No trading units to countries who you are not allied with or who are not at war with the same country you are. We allowing trading with the AI but not with human players unless allied to them or with countries that are wat war with the same enemy. IE USA can trade with USSR only if both are at war with Germany.

No assainations unless at war.We find it silly that a sucessful assasination of an important minister doesnt cause a state of war so we just simply ban it until war starts.

Hope those are helpful.
 
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Italy generally should not join the Axis until France falls, Bumblebee covered the reasons in their house rules.

Ultimately, what Italy does, or does not do should be decided through communication with the German player.

Germany is going to take the brunt of any action, so before Italy decided to invade Turkey they may want to clear it with Germany first in the off chance Italy gets thrown back and suddenly the Reds are threatening the Balkans.

Germany is the boss, figure out what is reasonable for Italy and have at it. Otherwise Germany can just refuse Italy access to the Axis and watch as the UK/US/Commonwealth stomp all over them ;p
 
Bumble Bee said:
Our Group House Rules:

No WW2 before Danzig event.
This is mainly to avoid fights and lets everyone plan their builds as they wish. We find that if dows happen too early some countries get crushed and eliminated.

No Human alliance with either Spain until Paris falls.
This our solution to people allying one Spain and being in perpetual war before Danzig. No exploits of the peacetime modifiers with this rule.

Italy cannot join axis until Paris Falls.
We've had problems with USSR being swamped by masses of modern axis troops so leaving Italy out till 1940ish means less uber modern troops on the eastern front.

Uk cannot move CW troops until Paris falls.
This balances the above rule as we find UK deploys huge CW forces to the med before war starts and swamps Italy. Now the UK cannot move its CW forces until war with Italy begins. We have an exclusion for the Canadian troops we let them deploy to either France or UK home islands.

USA is edited one gearing when Japan annexes and puppets Nat China. Japan annexing China gives 80 belligerence yet the puppeting removes it all, to make up for this silly exploit we edit Japanese belligerence back up to 45 and thus triggers the first USA gearing event. Which is needed to compensate for the 60 IC China Japan gets as a puppet.

USA cannot enter war until Japan dows, Japan can dow anytime after Jan 1 1941. With slider moves it is posisble for USA to enter war in 39 thus gaining full IC 2 years before rl. This unbalances the war and dooms the axis players.

No trading units to countries who you are not allied with or who are not at war with the same country you are. We allowing trading with the AI but not with human players unless allied to them or with countries that are wat war with the same enemy. IE USA can trade with USSR only if both are at war with Germany.

No assainations unless at war.We find it silly that a sucessful assasination of an important minister doesnt cause a state of war so we just simply ban it until war starts.

Hope those are helpful.

They are very helpful - Thanks!

One question though -

No WW2 before Danzig event.
This is mainly to avoid fights and lets everyone plan their builds as they wish. We find that if dows happen too early some countries get crushed and eliminated.

- So does this rule forbid Japan from invading, say the Dutch East Indies? (Netherlands not yet in Allies) Japan is the only country I see having a problem with this rule, since there are so many options for them in the early game - what if they don't really want to be forced into a war with China, opting for the resource rich East Indies instead?

I just want to make sure that I understand that this rule forbids all non-event driven declarations of war until Germany makes her move. What if USSR wants to invade, say, Turkey? (Pre WW2) Forbidden or permitted?
 
sorry for my crashing in with a bit ot question, but as i heard, mp saved games in dd cant be reload ?

is this thrue or has this been fixed ?

again sorry for my crashing in like this.......... :eek:o :D
 
Borna said:
sorry for my crashing in with a bit ot question, but as i heard, mp saved games in dd cant be reload ?

is this thrue or has this been fixed ?

again sorry for my crashing in like this.......... :eek:o :D

They can be reloaded - The problem we've experienced is the compression error. To fix this you simply send everyone a copy of the save game file and they put it in their save directory.

Oh, and you're a dirty crasher, by the way. :wacko:
 
Codias said:
They can be reloaded - The problem we've experienced is the compression error. To fix this you simply send everyone a copy of the save game file and they put it in their save directory.

Oh, and you're a dirty crasher, by the way. :wacko:


so the host needs to send save game file (EUG file and CFG file) to others,........that takes time, EUG files are big,.......

thanks for the answer
 
Bumble Bee said:
No WW2 before Danzig event.
This is mainly to avoid fights and lets everyone plan their builds as they wish. We find that if dows happen too early some countries get crushed and eliminated.

I would strongly discourage any new group from starting with this rule. If you find that this is the only solution for your group, so be it. But my experiences lead me to believe that by not having this rule, it keeps everybody honest.

If Germany's foolish enough to build up belligerance through attacking minors early, it runs the risk of either being DoWed by a major or having one of those minors join a major alliance. But what if the SU decides to disband his entire army and build factories into 1939? You can make up a houserule to prevent this, but why not simply have the threat of Germany being able to invade unopposed should something so rash occur?

Likewise, a Germany may get away with a snatch of Denmark or some such if its built up its military quickly and early. If the Allies Dow in october 1938 (after the belligerance increase of Munich) and they're facing an abnormally large Wehrmacht for the time, they are sacrificing France and setting up Russia to be invaded in 1939. All to deny Germany the last Czech event, Danzig, and the manpower of a few more national provinces.

Early wars have costs and benefits. If the players are mature and the least bit analytical, having this option can add to the game rather than take away from it.

USA is edited one gearing when Japan annexes and puppets Nat China. Japan annexing China gives 80 belligerence yet the puppeting removes it all, to make up for this silly exploit we edit Japanese belligerence back up to 45 and thus triggers the first USA gearing event. Which is needed to compensate for the 60 IC China Japan gets as a puppet.

My own regular group's ruling was to adjust the belligerance at which the US can DoW Japan. The Chinese surrender event's original author intended the surrender to reduce Japanese belligerance by some 20 points. Paradox "balanced" it by skyrocketing it for all options. Annex+puppet may allow belligerance to remain relatively neutral, but it also destroys the launch points for Japanese invasions into Russia and India provided by the event's territorial assignments.

No one knows for sure what changes in US policy would have resulted from Japan installing Kiri China. Our solution allowed the gear up event due to belligerance to fire naturally, but the US had to deduct the belligerance gain(mentally) before a DoW. Ie. calculate the belligerance Japan would have without the event - if that number was less than the belligerance threshold for DoW, then the US can not DoW Japan.

This method has the advantage of not requiring any edits.

USA cannot enter war until Japan dows, Japan can dow anytime after Jan 1 1941. With slider moves it is posisble for USA to enter war in 39 thus gaining full IC 2 years before rl. This unbalances the war and dooms the axis players.

One of the problems we had was with early USA war entry into europe. By restricting US war entry to the Axis accomplishing major objectives, such as capturing/encircling 2 of 3 major SU cities or the capture/encirclement of London, coupled with belligerance management on the part of the Axis, US war entry could be managed.

When you enact hard and fast rules about DoWs, it makes it easier on some players, especially the SU. Forbidding Japan to attack anyone but China before 1941 lets the SU leave east asia unguarded in 1940, reducing the chances of an early Barbarossa succeeding. Forbidding the US from entering the war until Japan does encourages Japan to sit on its thumbs and build CV's while Germany and the european Axis destroy the British then proceed to leave the atlantic almost completely unguarded during Barbarossa.

No trading units to countries who you are not allied with or who are not at war with the same country you are. We allowing trading with the AI but not with human players unless allied to them or with countries that are wat war with the same enemy. IE USA can trade with USSR only if both are at war with Germany.

I love the idea of proxy wars. In the case of human China vs human Japan, it gives the edge to the side that invested the most, but it reduces that side's military capability in europe. The see-saw of intelligence efforts lead to an escalation in support or to an early attack.

In the cases of US support of the UK and USSR, it allows the US to contribute to the war effort without direct intervention. The deployment of old DD's or new armoured forces by the UK should not be terribly unbalancing to the game. And if the US leaves itself defenceless, it deserves to get invaded.

With the exception of this last one, these rule suggestions have been tested a number of times in MP campaigns in vanilla HoI2. A good source for sample rule sets, which cover most of the features of the game and have been thoroughly tested, may be found at hoiplayers.notlong.com

Here are a few sets:
http://xsorbit25.com/users5/hoiplayers/index.php?topic=499.0
http://xsorbit25.com/users5/hoiplayers/index.php?topic=1040.0
http://xsorbit25.com/users5/hoiplayers/index.php?topic=597.0 (example for an ahistoric game - Ger/Ita/Fra vs SU/Jap vs US/UK)

The way it usually works is that the game manager/host will post a suggested set of rules, then prospective players will comment and negotiate changes from the suggested set. A default set is usually a good place to start rather than "what houserules do folks want?" A disorganized rule set can lead to misunderstandings later.
 
Brasidas said:
My own regular group's ruling was to adjust the belligerance at which the US can DoW Japan. The Chinese surrender event's original author intended the surrender to reduce Japanese belligerance by some 20 points. Paradox "balanced" it by skyrocketing it for all options. Annex+puppet may allow belligerance to remain relatively neutral, but it also destroys the launch points for Japanese invasions into Russia and India provided by the event's territorial assignments.

If Japan takes choice, A the totally ahistorical "Let's create a united china with the same tech and more troops than we have" option, Japan gets massive belligerence, and triggers all US gears within a few months. By annexing China (the take it all option C) Japan annexes China, and can then release China, and ends up with a wopping 0 Belligerence. All the advantages of a gigantic puppet with more manpower than the Soviets pumping out troops with no US gear up.

And it doesn't stop invasions of India or the USSR. If you use your own troops to attack from a puppet, it goes to you, the puppet master. India is easily destroyed.

No one knows for sure what changes in US policy would have resulted from Japan installing Kiri China. Our solution allowed the gear up event due to belligerance to fire naturally, but the US had to deduct the belligerance gain(mentally) before a DoW. Ie. calculate the belligerance Japan would have without the event - if that number was less than the belligerance threshold for DoW, then the US can not DoW Japan.

That sounds like a really bad solution. The US will end up with full IC.

The gear event gives +25% IC per gear. If Japan takes choice A or B, ALL US gears fire shortly afterwards, giving a US with full IC and nearly full hawk before 1939. Alternately, annexing and then releasing China gives a Japan with 0 belligerence and a puppet with more manpower than the Soviets, at Japanese tech.

And as for changes to foreign policy, I always find it strange that Imperial Japan can enslave 1/4 of the worlds population, use the vast Chinese manpower to build a giant army capable of overrunning India and Siberia for no ill effects if they annex/release.

Anyway, I haven't played Doomsday in MP yet, but in SP the events seem to be the same. Doomsday will probably need different house rules, owing to the new options, particularly with regards to intelligence. A human has little difficulty getting ten spies into their own nation and wiping out all spies within a few months of game start. But for the big boys with lots of IC (USA and USSR) with enough patience they can get enough money to put spies into virtually every ai nation and get a long way ahead in tech. But who knows.
 
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Well our rule set has seen an end to all fights and hissy fits so they must work.

P.S the goal of our group is to fight a campaign that follows as close to history as possible while allowing all sides the chance for victory. Generally we also have unwritten rules about fair play and not taking an unfair advantage over the opposition, this works cos we're all friends but maybe for other groups it would need to be spelled out.
 
For the Japan vs China situation our Aussie group has made this rule.

If Japan conquers China then the US is entilited to 1 gearing event. We do this by saving the game after japan annexes then puppets China and edit Japans beligeranc from 0 to 45. This lets the US have 1 gearing event and helps balance the game as a puppet china is a big advantage to Japan and there must be a reaction like GK said above.
 
Unless of course the Japan player gets beaten by the Ai... :rofl:
 
Gjerg Kastrioti said:
If Japan takes choice, A the totally ahistorical "Let's create a united china with the same tech and more troops than we have" option, Japan gets massive belligerence, and triggers all US gears within a few months.

No, it does not trigger all US gear events. It triggers 3 of 4, taking USA down to a 10% peacetime penalty and keeping it at peacetime CG demand.

Gearup #1:
trigger = {
atwar = no
OR = {
belligerence = { country = SOV value = 35 }
belligerence = { country = GER value = 35 }
belligerence = { country = JAP value = 40 }
NOT = { control = { province = 19 data = ENG } } # London
NOT = { control = { province = 56 data = FRA } } # Paris
NOT = { control = { province = 175 data = SOV } } # Moscow
NOT = { control = { province = 515 data = ITA } } # Rome
NOT = { control = { province = 300 data = GER } } # Berlin

Canadian territory occupied
Mexico, Brazil attacked/Axis

war = { country = ENG country = SOV }
war = { country = ENG country = JAP }
war = { country = JAP country = HOL }

}
random = 15
}

date = { day = 0 month = january year = 1936 }
offset = 5
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1953 }

action_a = {
...
command = { type = peacetime_ic_mod value = 25 }
...
}
}

Gearup #2
....
trigger = {
event = 56
atwar = no
OR = {
axis = 408 # axis holds at least X vp ('41 GC +30% VP)
comintern = 263 # comintern holds at least X vp ('41 GC +30% VP)
belligerence = { country = GER value = 50 }
belligerence = { country = JAP value = 50 }
belligerence = { country = SOV value = 50 }
Canadian territory occupied
Mexico, Brazil Axis/ under attack
}
random = 10
}

date = { day = 0 month = january year = 1936 }
offset = 5
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1953 }

action_a = {
...
command = { type = domestic which = interventionism value = 1 }
command = { type = peacetime_ic_mod value = 15 }
...

}
}

Gearup #3
trigger = {
event = 57
atwar = no
OR = {
axis = 471 # axis holds at least X vp ('41 GC +50% VP)
comintern = 303 # comintern holds at least X vp ('41 GC +50% VP)
belligerence = { country = GER value = 60 }
belligerence = { country = JAP value = 70 }
belligerence = { country = SOV value = 70 }

Canada, the Danish possessions, Mexico or the carribean occupied
}
random = 20
}

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 }
offset = 15
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1953 }

action_a = {
...
command = { type = peacetime_ic_mod value = 15 }
...
}


}
}

Gearup #4
trigger = {
atwar = no
OR = {
Canada, the Danish possessions, or the carribean occupied

Portugal, Argentina, Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, Venezuela, or Cuba controlled by Axis
random = 20
}

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 }
offset = 15
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1953 }

action_a = {
ai_chance = 90
...
command = { type = domestic which = interventionism value = 1 }
command = { type = peacetime_ic_mod value = 10 }
...
}
 
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Brasidas said:
No, it does not trigger all US gear events. It triggers 3 of 4, taking USA down to a 10% peacetime penalty and keeping it at peacetime CG demand.

Sorry, 90% of full IC. My mistake.
 
The gear event gives +25% IC per gear. If Japan takes choice A or B, ALL US gears fire shortly afterwards, giving a US with full IC and nearly full hawk before 1939.

False. 1st gear is 25%, 2nd is 15, 3rd is 15, 4th is 10.

If Japan brings its belligerance below 70, through puppets or releasing puppets from vassal-status, it can avoid the third gear. Otherwise, USA is going to lose most of its peacetime penalty, though it can not enter the war.

As for your comments about changes in foreign policy, why not a house rule to force the Japanese player to stick with the choice they make in the event? Ie no annex-release?

I fail to see why 3 out 4 gear-ups are terribly unbalancing for a Japanese player that remains unDoWable by the USA when they've defeated China. Contrarily, the "super-China" will have to build itself up over time. It becomes stronger the longer it has to consolidate, but if Japan wants to take on India before the USA joins, its probably going to have to do it with its own army.

This achieves a balance. USA becomes stronger, Japan doesn't face instant war.
 
The problem with the US having 3 gearing event as early as 1938 when they wouldnt normaly reach this level until 1940 or 1941. The US will have massive IC 3 years earlier then normal, which makes a MP massively unbalanced to the point where you might as well not play it.

Also there is not much the Japan player can do to prevent this happening other then drag the war out, then Japan gets the benifit of a war economy for 4+ years.

This is why we decided on 1 gear for the US. I allows the Japan player to finish the China war but also gives a 25% boost to the US for China going under.

Keep China is perspective, the US was never going to mobilize its economy for war over China the way it did after pearl harbour. So an increase in defence spending of 25% would be apporoate to deal with a stronger Japan.
 
And if Japan not only doesn't have to tie up its own army in China, but has the manpower and industry of a high-tech Chinese puppet to draw upon in its conflict with India, its also ahistorically powerful. This isn't three years early, this never happened.

Japan will be able to effectively abandon its land forces in terms of new production and throw everything into the navy. If the USA isn't able to DoW, Japan may be able to knock the Allies out of the Pacific, in which case Japan has the opportunity to go on the defensive with heavy land and air assets against a superior USN. And win.

Britain may be able to hold India-Burma, but its not in a position to go on the offensive and its forces will be less flexible elsewhere. A weaker BEF and north african garrison will likely happen.

The Soviets will have lost a useful counterweight if China was human. With the territorial transfers, Japan will be able to push a large force fairly quickly with steady supply into the Caspian sea area. The Reds can ignore the east for a while, but not indefinitely. Unlike in vanilla 1.2, a post-China Japan cooperating with Germany and its european allies could result in the annexation of Russia within a couple of campaign seasons.

Finally, if China is human, there's a good chance this isn't going to happen in 1938. I much prefer playing with a human China than a human USA. China not being a pushover avoids seeing Japan become too powerful too early, and prevents the Allies from having lend-lease in 1936 and a hyper-interventionist USA in 1939. A bare-knuckle brawl in asia in the early game can be escalated by european aid, but in such a situation the aiding powers are gambling with their means of building up their own armed forces.

Against a stronger Japan, you have a stronger USA. Good luck to you with your own rules, but I hold that this setup is potentially balanced, and I have indeed tested it in an MP campaign.

Three gears does not doom Japan, nor does a human China. It makes the job harder.

Early US war entry can doom the Axis, and immunity from Japanese DoW's makes things too easy imo upon the Allies and Comintern.
 
Have you seen the strength of Nationalist China? A human China will very likely defeat Japan on the gorund and if Japan loses Korea and Manchuria the surrender event fires and the game is over. China must be kept ai and Japan when it annexes should not have to face a fully geared USA. China as a puppet is 80 IC and maybe 100 low grade divisions by 1942. USA fully geared is an extra 200-250 useable IC and will build 250 divisions by 1942. See the problem...