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DUG Game 1 Recap and Discussion

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Aug 13, 2003
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Dedicated U.S. Gamers, right? ;)

1937-late 1938

Italy annexed ethiopia, albania, yugoslavia, hungary, saudi arabia, bulgaria, and greece.

All of this fascist aggression drove down allied war entry, putting the U.S. at negative. (we can talk about a houserule for that)

Every interested party intervened in the Spanish revolution. The allies and germans sent expeditionary forces, spurring the italians to join the axis and begin a shipment of their own.

While said shipment was en-route, the nationalist forces were surrounded, cutting short any hopes of a fascist spain. Of course, the coup later fired, turning spain communist as reward for the allies' hard work.

Romania joined the axis, supplying oil to germany.

Japan had elections, and began its war in China. Unfortunately for them, NatChi joined the allies!

The Soviet Union has spent its time sending nationalist china expeditionary forces named with various insults towards hitler and mussolini.

Anything I'm forgetting? If you have dates, that would be nice.
 
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I'm guessing this is Italy talking :)

Nothing much happened early on, Stalin backed out completely from China/Japan as well as the British. The French loaned 2 infantry divisions to help secure China, they would turn out to be France's only proud achievement. China slowly made progress outnumbering the Japanese in nearly every battle, many times being militia and cavalry. Ending in mid 1939, and Japan only had 3 or 4 provinces left on mainland Asia. Great praise to Zeus and Willard (SP?).

Germany declared war on Austria after numberous attempts at peaceful resolution failed. Poland quickly accepted to join the Allies. From there Germany declared war on Denmark, Netherlands, Luxemburg, and finally Belgium. Never touching Poland until suddenly declaring war on allies in late Jun 1939. Of course just a few days before this France had stupidly ceded 3 of their most important to the Germans (mostly out of hungry, stupidity, and stupid HOI popup boxes), but an agreement was made and given back. Only one huge battle in France.

The Med Sea was a very big pain, and now I'm too tired to write. Great game guys, glad to see HOI multiplayer is fun and can be mostly bugless, just wish my cable modem didn't disconnect. New game? Old saved game? Rules? Contact #/names?
 
I think we need to have a few more house rules for the next game. The main thing I have a problem with is that the SU has equal tech to Germany in mid-39, and if anything I've been research heavy (as shown by the too few divisions I have on the board). I think this is simply because there are 5 players (UK, France, US, NatChina, and the SU) sharing amongst themselves vs the 3 of us. Simply limiting it to only grey techs isn't enough IMHO.

Having a blast so far though.
 
Just curious, what kind of tech share rules do you currently have? Do you have both unlimited type (gold and silver) and unlimited amount and allowed to send to any player?

From my experience, it makes the game much more fun (and historical) if no human players are allowed to send tech to each other. In the DEG games we have now adopted the following tech share rules:

Human to human tech share: Not allowed
Human to AI tech share: Only silver tech, and only allowed to send if the target nation is a part of your alliance (so Soviets can send to Mongolia for example)

Exception: A human controlled Commonwealth (CW) nation is allowed to send any kind of tech (silver and gold) to another CW nation (even if the target is human player). So UK can send all the tech they want to Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zeeland.

Also, we have restrictions about sending resources. You are only allowed to send resources to nations in your alliance, and the only exception to this is that UK and USA is allowed to send the Soviets stuff if the Germans DOW them.
 
We went with silver to everyone, CW trade anything, one gold tech share to human nations (cause we forgot to tell a substitute the rules)

Unfortunately, our INSANE MANIACAL (in the opinion of the aggrieved Italy, who is now defending the (erstwhile) Romanian Border) Soviet Union seems to have close or equal tech with Germany, judging by the way he squished the poor Axis Romanians.

We also had no resource restrictions, which is probably a bad idea. The Pasta Eaters wouldn't have violated your rule anyway, for shortly after the declaration of the Spanish Civil War, they join the Axis, beginning massive coal shipments to the Krauts. (Amsterdam never had it so good)
 
Alright, so picking up in late 38 and moving to the middle of 39, everything went to pot, in terms of Chamberlain's peaceful dreams.

Everything went like Park said, except Germany invited Japan into the axis, thereby putting itself at war with the Allies for free.
(which was probably worth it for the allies to suffer, considering without them Natchi would probably have fallen)

The DAY after, however, the Soviets DOW the Axis, making Mussolini tear out his (once-upon-a-time Socialist) hear from its roots.

The Bear quickly crushes Romania, spurring a (my) rapid flight from the coastal defenses along Italian Greece to establish a new Soviet line.

Those defenses were freed up through the valiant effort of the Italian fleet, which makes short work of the inferior British and French tubs.

Meanwhile - in Africa and the Middle East: Rommel runs out of gas waiting for Graziani to land in Jerusalem, who is waiting for Campioni and Iachino to finish off the British fleet, which is all intended to SUPPLY through jerusalem, into Saudi Arabia, on into Ethiopia, thus allowing Rommel to come up and take the Suez...which will allow Campioni and Iachino to LEAVE the freaking Med., and keep the Beef Eaters out.

*pauses, breathing*

Almost everything has gone according to plan, with Cavallero moving north from Saudi Arabia into Kuwait and then Iraq, ready to annihilate the french and UK forces trapped there. According to plan, that is, except in Sidi Barini, where 15+ UK divisions are making a run for it West along the northern coast of Africa, herding ahead of them three fleeing italian divisions, who were expecting a cake-walk.

Enough Italian minutia for you? Japan has managed to annex the netherlands, and looks poised to conquer Australia, given the dearth of British units present anywhere near the Pacific.

Germany is holding an unfriendly Allied Polish front, a heavily defended (unfriendly) French front, and rushing to the aid of a (most unsightly) emergent Russian front, which in my opinion just gives the Axis lots of options *grin*

So what's the story, does everyone want to continue, given the fact that it's (at least apparently) already an Axis v. Allies+Comintern game in '39?

For the future, we do need to discuss and/or clarify our house rules on Italian aggression, techshare, exp. forces, spam influencing while under the (influence) of lag, keeping troops undeployed in the queue, resource shipment to non-allies, giving naval intelligence information to non-allies, and inviting a minor who's been DOW'd by a major into your alliance, thus entering war without any dissent hit.

As to Italian aggression, we could do some variant of the SOI rules the SP AI uses, in which case Italy is essentially barred from DOW on anything but Albania until 1939, not sure about Persia or Portugal.
 
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The funny thing was our original plan was for USSR to DOW in late June, and I was going to DOW in early July in hopes the Axis moved their forces to defend against USSR.

Never really intended for the Commies to join the Allies, early on DANE kept pushing for helping the allies (though I don't think we really tech shared with him) especially after Italy kept getting closer and closer to Turkey and Romania. Later, Omni was very agressive of securing techs and resources from the UK and US, very hostile and unwarranted IMHO. It was originally suppose to be 3 teams as someone said earilier, not sure how in the world it became 5on2. For the longest time I was sure Omni wasn't going to help until France was in Germany's hands.

Btw, I have no clue how Kuwait was lost. If I remember correctly it was 15 Ally divisions against 10 or less Italians. Were they Desert? Were our troops not supplied.

I would say tech sharing only in alliances no allies helping commies or just get rid of it completely but of course the French wouldn't have a chance...guess thats how it's suppose to be though *grumble*.
 
Hi all--thanks for letting me sit in for a bit last night.
I enjoyed the game and the company!

Anyway some thoughts/perceptions on things to tweak---

#1-- No exp. forces to China. Those forces do really help free up massive numbers of Chinese for offensives, which is quite unfair to the Japanese and unrealistic. I think the only exception would be the US Flying Tigers.

#2-- Tech sharing. I think limited numbers of tech support to China is good. However those techs should be limited to artillery, inf techs such as rifle or infantry guns, etc...no gold or silver techs.

On a general note, there should be, no tech share outside your "alliance." Only Allies share with Allied or like gov'ts. Commies can only tech share in Comintern/commie gov'ts.

#3-- In lieu of exp. forces, I think the Allies should be able to send lots of supply to NatChi. This will allow the Chinese to
"tweak" their supply allowance more towards production.

#4-- NatChi should not be allowed to join the allies before the outbreak of the "General War" by the Germans and Japanese. This is more a balancing thing. If the Japanese DOW the Allies, than it should be a free for all.

On game note, the previous player had really produced alot of militia, which is necessary to survive as China. However with the large Exp. forces, it really just overwhelmed Japan.

Chinese forces fought several large battles in North China, resulting in the destruction of approximately 30 Japanese divisions. Japanese forces (about 8 divisions ) where cut off in North Manchuria and destroyed on the Soviet border. An additional 20 divisions where destroyed in the Fuxin pocket. Chinese calvary mopped up the rest of the Japanese on the Korean peninsula. Chinese losses where heavy, but with an almost unlimited amount of manpower (China's real resource in lieu of no industrial production), China was able to launch wave after wave of attack. Not much "finesse" as it was more brute force.

Anyway, thanks for the game guys. I would like to join again if possible. Please post here if you like/need me to join you again.

Thanks,

Will
 
The main thing that caused me to give up China was because SU was transporting 'Chinese' troops off SU transports wherever he wanted, which means I couldn't have done anything about it. Not sure if anybody saw it, but that's when I had to split and lose the mountains to the west, which forced me to slowly retreat.

Plus, I think with the tech sharing, infantry would have probably been better. Terrain had more to do with battles than anything (like China attacking guarded mountains and SU crossing rivers).

On the other hand, I was thinking about withdrawl from China for awhile. I should have probably taken Australia to punish them, considering the UK doesn't seem to care about it. Of course, I don't think they can keep their ships near mine for long, so that's probably why.


I think a good tech sharing solution is a silver every three months. No golds, and no doctrines. I guess UK could have two or three...
 
This was an interesting game... especially since the lack of really good rules to govern some potentially nasty things like exp. forces.

As for the USA perspective of this game... we were particularly appalled by Italy's aggression very early on, which forced us to warm up to USSR more and send alot of technological assistance to the Allies. US observers watched in horror as the Axis put alot of effor into building many sub fleets while the Allies failed to respond with Destroyer fleets, so I knew ahead of time it was going to be a sad war for the French and Royal navies. That's one thing I'm disappointed with in 1.05c, the stack limitation really takes away any advantages to naval numbers superiority. It reduces the game's viable naval options to stacks of 12 subs or stacks of 12 destroyers. All other ships are a total waste of time and effort (well not that it hasn't always been like that, but the patch reinforces this even more).

Other than the tech shring to allies we remained historically neutral and historically boring :) No USA exp forces were sent to any conflict. We did send out reconassaince ships to several positions areound the globe mainly to curb our boredom and watch some fo the conflicts, although at times we did pass information to the Allies. Italy brought up a good point about this since neutral nations can see eachother's fleets despite detection techs, so we reduced our observations and stopped passing any info.

This game was mostly a learning experience I felt, to see what rules we need to have in place to make future games more fair and thus enjoyable. I would rather just start a new game with better rules but it seems everyone is having a good time so I have no problem with continuing.
 
Originally posted by TheDarkside
That's one thing I'm disappointed with in 1.05c, the stack limitation really takes away any advantages to naval numbers superiority. It reduces the game's viable naval options to stacks of 12 subs or stacks of 12 destroyers. All other ships are a total waste of time and effort (well not that it hasn't always been like that, but the patch reinforces this even more).
Click to expand...

I don't agree with this at all. First of all, what destroys destroyers? Subs? Better destroyers? No, it's the real surface ships. A battleship fleet can easily destroy a destroyer fleet, and a carrier fleet should have a decent chance against subs. Don't forget that cruisers also have decent ASW. Really, it turns the system into rock-paper-scissors-nuke, which it obviously should be. Also, the limits allow for many fleets, and even more to the allies if they're pumping out crappy ones. Before you could only have one fleet.

Also, you used six sub fleets, right? Can you guess how many destroyers I was using? Of course, my tech is better than yours, but I still think it doesn't follow your thinking.

Oh, you're the US, lol. No wonder. Have you seen any of the naval battles? As far as I know, you've only seen me blow up French transports, and maybe that one from Portugal.
 
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I guess no one really made it clear to omni or zeus or willard that this was intended to be an SU+natchi vs. German+Italy+Japan vs. UK+US+France?

It's too bad, because I actually had no intention of forming an early border with the USSR for exactly what's happened just now - soviet aggression. (Was there someone between omni and dane, btw?)

Also, I felt that the total and complete loss of China made up in a big way for whatever I conquered as Italy.

Oh, and as to Kuwait. I'm not _totally_ sure why you were slaughtered there. However, I'm guessing your iraqi infantry are about as good as militia, and I'm pretty sure that you stopped getting any supplies through when I closed the Suez, unless you're flying those transports in. That means it was essentially an even fight (9 on 9) with your side starving to death.
 
Maybe I'm wrong, but Zeus didn't talk too much early on, but Dane really warmed up to us. Omni sent 3-4 different squads of infantry into Korea (he wasn't transporting Chinese inf) although none of us told him to and UK or US told him to rethink it once or twice. He was really antsy. If it wasn't for the SU I'm not too sure how well China would of fended. I mean Japan was starting to slowly move inward even if it was 2 or 3 provinces until SU sent a few forces.

The Kuwait battle had 3 of my French divisions along with Iraqi and British forces and had at least 2 or 3 more divisions than the Opfor. Weird quirk, but oh well, same thing with Gabes, maybe my guys just hate the desert.

I wouldn't mind continuing the game or starting a new one. Learned a few lessons myself in warfare and would like to try it out in a new nation/scenario.
 
I didn't know anything about prearranged scenarios. I just happened to show up in Vnet and take the last remaining slot, which was China.

I figured that as it usually goes, Japan would attack, and as it usually goes, they would eventually side with the Axis, so I sided with the Allies. I don't know if in the actual war China was "officially" part of the Allies, but they did receive Allied help against Japan. The Allies in the game asked me to join so I figured why not, doesn't hurt me any, and it helps my cause against Japan.


Mostly I figured it would be a new and interesting thing to try in MP and would guarantee that I would get to some action since Japan usually attacks after a year or so. Playing USA means a lot of sitting around getting ready for the war that usually never happens since people always quit MP before USA enters.


Zeus
 
Yes China was actually part of the allies by the end of the war. There was a large loss of life among American and British/French forces to open the Burma Road to resupply Chiank Kai Kheks Army which had been virtually cut off by the Japanese.
 
Yah, but china wasn't in the allies in...37 - lol

I think we'll have to state that Nat Chi can't DOW for the Allies, and that you have to be an ally to send any country more than 3 exp. forces. (and that someone has to be in a war to get those 3)

That last rule might've sparked a Soviet DOW on Japan, but any of that could spark a German attack.

Did you guys know that the German general the Chinese have was part of a Nazi military training program for the Nationalists? I think we should leave open the possibility of an Axis China, at least (or especially) if Japan doesn't DOW them.

Speaking of desert, park, did you guys have the Desert Equipment tech? If not, that's probably why I pwnt j00. It gives a 25% bonus to all troops fighting in deserts. feedback got it done just in time for the shindig, and sent it over to me.
 
Interesting game, though it seems the Axis are toast. Do you have any screenshots to post?

I honestly think your settings concerning nations played, tech sharing and exp forces severely penalizes the Axis. A Japaneese player who does not control China by end of 1937 wont stand much of a chance vs the USA once they enter the war.

Have there been any naval engagements involving naval bombers and/or torpedo bombers? If so, how did it work out?
 
I provided Park with Desert equipment after he lost a province in North Africa, which was most likely during that battle in Iraq. Surely it was too late by then. Also, were there any Iraqi troops involved in that fight? That might explain some more weaknesses.

Someone may have taken screenshots because I remember someone asking what the hotkey was for it. If that person needs a place to host it I'll be happy to. But to give you an overall idea of how the world map looks like... In Asia all of China is nationalized plus most if not all the japanese held territory in Korea and Manchuria. Japan began making incursions into Netherlands and may have annexed all their pacific colonies already. In Africa there was minor chages, which conists of some Italian gains towards Egypt and french North Africa. In Middle East Italy began from Saudi Arabia and is now pushing into Iraq while they also secured the coast of modern day Israel and Lebanon. Italy mentioned having Suez? I must have missed that one. In Europe, France/German border remains locked in trench warfare. Poland is still in tact acting as a buffer between German and Soviet forces but the Soviets have pushed into Romania, annexing it and threatinging the Balkans. Since the Germans annexed Denmark before the event for USA occupation of Greenland/Iceland triggered they continue to hold those islands.
 
Well I only took a few, here're 2 from 1938 and 1939.

http://server1.ripplehost.com/~rh2232/HOI.jpg
March 22, 1938

http://server1.ripplehost.com/~rh2232/HOI1.jpg
Korea in 1939

The 1938 picture was nearly the same as current game except China pushed Japan out of mainland, USSR took Romania and a few other, Germany has parts of Poland, low countries and Denmark. Italy has 2-5 province gains in Africa.

So are we starting a new 1939 game? Leaving it to trading only in alliance circles?
 
I meant that the 'Chinese' forces were Soviet. There were two nine-division infantry units (or three) that attacked off transports from the east and could attack from anywhere. My problem was that he could unload from anywhere and I'd be screwed unless I went to war with them. If the transports were expedientiary forces, they would have been utterly destroyed by the blockade. I was just annoyed because the only way I could keep China was to DoW the SU, which is what he wanted in the first place.

Oh, and I really want to finish our game. It was just getting good, too. It should take, at most, another weekend. Then we can do a '39.
 
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