Dumber Children tweak

[Wizzington]

This is a small tweak that attempts to address the insane stats that children get in Deus Vult. It's an event that will fire on average 1.5 times per child and gives the child -4 to randomly picked skills. On average it will take 6 skill points off each character, and it creates greater variance by giving you some real terrible characters while retaining the chance for a 15-in-all-stats genius.

Event text (paste into childhood_events.txt or a mod event file):

######################################
# Countering CKDV's crazy ass skills #
######################################

character_event = { 
	id = 9530

	picture = "event_education"

	trigger = {
		condition = { type = age value = 4 }
		condition = { type = not value = { type = age value = 16 } }
	}

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 96
	}

	action_a = {
		effect = { type = random_list
			25 = { type = martial value = -1 }
			25 = { type = diplomacy value = -1 }
			25 = { type = intrigue value = -1 }
			25 = { type = stewardship value = -1 }
		}
		effect = { type = random_list
			25 = { type = martial value = -1 }
			25 = { type = diplomacy value = -1 }
			25 = { type = intrigue value = -1 }
			25 = { type = stewardship value = -1 }
		}
		effect = { type = random_list
			25 = { type = martial value = -1 }
			25 = { type = diplomacy value = -1 }
			25 = { type = intrigue value = -1 }
			25 = { type = stewardship value = -1 }
		}
		effect = { type = random_list
			25 = { type = martial value = -1 }
			25 = { type = diplomacy value = -1 }
			25 = { type = intrigue value = -1 }
			25 = { type = stewardship value = -1 }
		}
	}
}

CSV text (for modtext.csv)

EVT_9530_NAME;A child's abilities have declined significantly;;;;;;;;;;X
ACTIONNAME9530A;Such is life!;;;;;;;;;;X

 

[IamWhoa]

I tried it out and it works pretty well. The only son of my Duke had 0 stewardship and from 1 to 9 in the other stats, but he was pretty terrible compared to most others. I noticed some other characters had the same or even greater ranges of variance. It definitely makes things a lot more interesting.

 

[Finarfin]

Where am I supposed to put the text data? I don't seem to have a file called modtext.csv.

 

[Wizzington]

You can either put it in text.csv or create a modtext.csv yourself (I recommend the latter).

 

[IamWhoa]

I put mine in the event_text file in the Config folder. I don't know if that's a disaster waiting to happen or what, but it works.

edit: beaten

 

[Hasimir Fenring]

Great event, unfortunetely, I still see 'super characters' in my games What can I do to get back to 'CK level characters'? Increase the MTTH ?

 

[jordarkelf]

I use a different event in my own game, based on Wiz's event though, that is far more harsh. I'll post it here later.
It still doesn't bring characters down to CK levels, but characters with 10+ in stats are rare again. It takes up to 5 points of all skills if any skill is above 10, and can fire multiple times.

 

[Hasimir Fenring]

Interesting I will give it a try as soon as you post it.

 

[Mrdie]

So, where is it?

 

[jordarkelf]

Either the gremlins ate it, or I forgot to post it. But who would you rather trust, me or a sneaky gremlin?

Will try to remember to post it today.

 

[motiv-8]

I use a different event in my own game, based on Wiz's event though, that is far more harsh. I'll post it here later.
It still doesn't bring characters down to CK levels, but characters with 10+ in stats are rare again. It takes up to 5 points of all skills if any skill is above 10, and can fire multiple times.

Is there a way to implement this without it being too 'gamey'? Right now it seems like, 'Oops, your kid is gettin too smart, better hit him with a hammer!'

 

[jordarkelf]

Is there a way to implement this without it being too 'gamey'? Right now it seems like, 'Oops, your kid is gettin too smart, better hit him with a hammer!'

Not that I can think of... the problem is that kids just get too many stat points as they grow up, which we cannot directly control.

----
This is my nasty variant:

###################################### 
# Countering CKDV's crazy ass skills # 
###################################### 

character_event = { 
   id = 9530 

   picture = "event_education" 

   trigger = { 
      condition = { type = age value = 12 } 
      condition = { type = not value = { type = age value = 18 } } 
	  condition = { type = or
		condition = { type = martial value = 10 }
		condition = { type = diplomacy value = 10 }
		condition = { type = intrigue value = 10 }
		condition = { type = stewardship value = 10 }
		condition = { type = and
			condition = { type = martial value = 8 }
			condition = { type = diplomacy value = 8 }
		}
		condition = { type = and
			condition = { type = martial value = 8 }
			condition = { type = intrigue value = 8 }
		}
		condition = { type = and
			condition = { type = martial value = 8 }
			condition = { type = stewardship value = 8 }
		}
		condition = { type = and
			condition = { type = diplomacy value = 8 }
			condition = { type = intrigue value = 8 }
		}
		condition = { type = and
			condition = { type = diplomacy value = 8 }
			condition = { type = stewardship value = 8 }
		}
		condition = { type = and
			condition = { type = intrigue value = 8 }
			condition = { type = stewardship value = 8 }
		}
	  }
   } 

   mean_time_to_happen = { 
      months = 12 
   } 

   action_a = { 
      effect = { type = random_list 
         15 = { type = no_effect }
         15 = { type = martial value = -1 } 
         15 = { type = martial value = -2 } 
         15 = { type = martial value = -3 }  
         15 = { type = martial value = -4 } 
         15 = { type = martial value = -5 } 
      } 
      effect = { type = random_list 
         15 = { type = no_effect }
         15 = { type = diplomacy value = -1 } 
         15 = { type = diplomacy value = -2 } 
         15 = { type = diplomacy value = -3 }  
         15 = { type = diplomacy value = -4 } 
         15 = { type = diplomacy value = -5 } 
      } 
      effect = { type = random_list 
         15 = { type = no_effect }
         15 = { type = intrigue value = -1 } 
         15 = { type = intrigue value = -2 } 
         15 = { type = intrigue value = -3 }  
         15 = { type = intrigue value = -4 } 
         15 = { type = intrigue value = -5 } 
      } 
      effect = { type = random_list 
         15 = { type = no_effect }
         15 = { type = stewardship value = -1 } 
         15 = { type = stewardship value = -2 } 
         15 = { type = stewardship value = -3 }  
         15 = { type = stewardship value = -4 } 
         15 = { type = stewardship value = -5 } 
      } 
   } 
}

 

[chowbeng]

I had tried my own take on Wiz's work by tying it with way fertility works in DV. The idea is a greater spread of characters with just one decent stat. I want characters with one good stats to be fairly easily found but those with good stats in 2 or more areas to be rare.

But I can't get the balance or the tie-in right. Either it's off the charts or the effects were minimal.

I would love to see how you worked it out and hell would I learn something.
Modding is too tough, loads and loads of testing needed even for a minor event.

 

[jordarkelf]

I've tried to do a little spread, but you run the risk of becoming too deterministic...

For example I can easily write events that check for any two high stats, and then penalize one of those stats -- but it would then happen to everyone.
With the above one I posted, some characters can get -5 on all four stats, others don't get anything -- but as it can fire potentially up to 6 times, most characters with 10 in one stat, or 8 in two stats, will get dumbed down by it.

 

[chowbeng]

I've tried to do a little spread, but you run the risk of becoming too deterministic...

For example I can easily write events that check for any two high stats, and then penalize one of those stats -- but it would then happen to everyone.
With the above one I posted, some characters can get -5 on all four stats, others don't get anything -- but as it can fire potentially up to 6 times, most characters with 10 in one stat, or 8 in two stats, will get dumbed down by it.

Yes, I found that out the hard way. I modified the stats too much and most of the characters turned out to be cookie cutter and totally lose the spirit and the randomness of the classic CK character.

I would certainly try your latest tweak as soon as I can.

 

[unmerged(87358)]

Yes, I found that out the hard way. I modified the stats too much and most of the characters turned out to be cookie cutter and totally lose the spirit and the randomness of the classic CK character.

I would certainly try your latest tweak as soon as I can.

I also hate the overpowered characters in DV. Hey, would it not be possible to return an element of stats inheritance to the game? IRL at least 50% of a child's abilities are determined by genes, why not return it to the game?

Like, if daddy and mommy had 12 or more Base Stewardship score, the stat reduction event mentioned earlier would not affect the child's stewardship stat.

Also, the stat reduction event should probably have a shorter MTTH (like 12 months) and smaller probabilities to reduce stats. That way you can make the super-duper characters really rare.

BTW does anyone know what the average stat on a healthy mature character (not counting the education trait) in the original CK was? Most of the events seem to be written for the original characters, so I think that the average stat was somewhere around 6, and in DV that became 8-9.

 

[jordarkelf]

That's not something modders can do.

In CK most characters have between 20 and 30 stat points in the four main stats, in DV this is closer to 30-40.

With the event from this thread this is bumped down a lot, I now even sometimes have characters with a 0 in a stat -- just like could happen in CK. I haven't checked in detail, but I think the average is back to the old range.

 

[unmerged(87358)]

That's not something modders can do.

In CK most characters have between 20 and 30 stat points in the four main stats, in DV this is closer to 30-40.

With the event from this thread this is bumped down a lot, I now even sometimes have characters with a 0 in a stat -- just like could happen in CK. I haven't checked in detail, but I think the average is back to the old range.

Concerning the inheritance of stats: would it not be possible to create four different events for the different stats, and include the parent stats as modifiers of MTTH for their decrease? There could be let's say 3 decreases by 1 per each stat on average (MTTH 48 months), and if e.g. the mom has stewardship 7, that could factor MTTH by 1.1.

I might try writing and testing such events. The only problem I can envisage right now is that there would be 12 such events per child on average, which could be kinda tedious. Maybe having a single event fire on its 1st birthday could help? Can the stats go negative, even though you still see a zero?

Also, how do I recover the parent stats from their "genomes"? They still have them in the savegames, don't they?

 

[jordarkelf]

Sure, you can check on the stats of the father or mother -- they're all available to the even engine.
But we can't do anything about the stat learning. At every birthday one of the following happens:
1) Stat increase of one point in one skill
2) Stat increase of one point in two skills
3) Stat increase of two points in one skill

Therefore you must wait until this process has finished before taking care of it with events.
I could revise the event from post 12 to check parent's skills and normalize to them, but it would require (as you guessed) multiple events. Four of them at least (one per skill). And it would mostly remove the randomness: great parents would have great kids, idiots would have idiots.
What I like about the DV system is that it makes it possible that your idiot ruler's son will become a genius, or vice versa -- it's no longer simply a matter of marrying the woman with the best skills and breeding supermen.
The event from post 12 counters the skills-gone-wild pretty well in my experience: I have very few supermen, and even sometimes people with a 0 in a skill (or lower: negative numbers display as 0). This brings it closer to old CK, but without the breeding.

 

[unmerged(87358)]

Sure, you can check on the stats of the father or mother -- they're all available to the even engine.
But we can't do anything about the stat learning. At every birthday one of the following happens:
1) Stat increase of one point in one skill
2) Stat increase of one point in two skills
3) Stat increase of two points in one skill

Therefore you must wait until this process has finished before taking care of it with events.
I could revise the event from post 12 to check parent's skills and normalize to them, but it would require (as you guessed) multiple events. Four of them at least (one per skill). And it would mostly remove the randomness: great parents would have great kids, idiots would have idiots.
What I like about the DV system is that it makes it possible that your idiot ruler's son will become a genius, or vice versa -- it's no longer simply a matter of marrying the woman with the best skills and breeding supermen.
The event from post 12 counters the skills-gone-wild pretty well in my experience: I have very few supermen, and even sometimes people with a 0 in a skill (or lower: negative numbers display as 0). This brings it closer to old CK, but without the breeding.

I must agree with you on that the ability to choose a bride with the best stats could cause a disbalance in favour of the human player. OK, so what about taking only the father's stats into consideration (no anti-feminism intended )? That would make breeding harder, and the system would stabilize itself on just slightly better stats for human-controlled dynasties than for the AI. A human player can affect inheritance much more efficiently than the AI, anyway. Most of my successors in current games are second-cousins twice removed or something like that, because I use elective law and I always find someone who was not bred by me but by the AI, and despite that he has the best stats

I could also try introducing some more randomness to the upbringing by "distorting" the distribution of stat points - let's say, decrease three stats by one, increase one by three, to make some abilities stand out on some characters, and also make them harder to carry over to the next generation(reducing the breeding effect).

EDIT I would also like to know whether I could make the event fire when the kid is a 1-year old, and have his abilities get below zero; for practical reasons I don't want to make the event cause a teenager to get more stupid.