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Mar 27, 2001
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I have some questions regarding Eastern Prussia. How German were the Germans from this region. Considering that there was a large Slavic element all around them, was there a lot of intermarriage and so although German in name and tongue, they perhaps had a lot of Slavic blood?


Also, what is the after 1945 status of these people. Are there any organizations formed for former residents of say... Koenigsberg? Or were all of these people murdered by the Soviets?

Should make for an interesting discussion.
 
It's a dodgy question really, but being Polish I'll answer it as best I can.

Many people would be upset at my saying this, but basically there are two types of Polish people; Slavic Poles (darker-skinned, from the south-east, -that's me and my family BTW) and Latin Poles (fair-skinned, from the north-west). Consequently the idea that the peoples of East Prussia were surrounded by 'Slavic influences' is not accurate per se. Really, the only historical difference from East Prussians and Northern Poles was one of language and to a lesser degree of culture.

As far as the Prussian region as it exists today; it is definitely a part of Poland, and as it stands Poland is a very unified country. -But that having been said there have been so many changes to the border regions over past 100 years that there are a few non-polish persons who still carry with them there original heritage; for example: if you go to the far south you will find the odd person who has a Russian name; likewise, if you go to the far north (formally Prussia) you will find the odd person who has a German name.

I'm not sure if you are inferring this or not, but as far as I have ever heard there is no move for independence or separation on the part of former Prussia to rejoin Germany for economic or cultural regions. For all intensive purposes, (both inward and outward), Prussia is now 100% a part of Poland + considering all the hardships of the past I don't think anyone would argue that it should be.
 
Starting 1300 a.d Teutonic Knights ( German Templars ) started to conquer, subdigate, eliminate and eventually exterminate one of the Baltic nation ' Prussians'. These people were not Slavs or Germans, they did belong to the same language group as today's Latvians, Estonians and Lithuanians. German Knights took full control of their lands and began repopulating it with peasants from Holy Roman Empire. By 1500 a.d Silesia, Pomerania and Prussia were mostly populated with German speaking people. During the time when Commonwealth had control of Prussia exchange of culture accrued but for the most part Prussia was German. After Partition of Poland in 1795 a.d Prussia began Germanisation of a Slavs in their territories.( schools only in German, no polish newspapers or institutions.) By 1920 new Poland had large German population within its borders. After WW2 almost all of Germans were forcibly moved to today's Germany. Prussian lands were repopulated with Polaks and Russians.

So you see. There is no more Prussians. Their lands are occupied by other people, just like there is no more American Indians in NJ. Funny thing is that Poland is back to its original borders from 999 a.d when it was formed for the firs time.
 
Originally posted by Pomerania Prince
Starting 1300 a.d Teutonic Knights ( German Templars ) started to conquer, subdigate, eliminate and eventually exterminate one of the Baltic nation ' Prussians'. These people were not Slavs or Germans, they did belong to the same language group as today's Latvians, Estonians and Lithuanians. ...

The same as Latvians and Lithuanias probably, but thoose languages are slavic, admittedly not closley related to any other now exicting slavic languages. Estonias are talking a non-indoeuopaan language (closley related to Finnish, and not so closley with Hungarian) not related to Latvian or Lithuanian.
 
It's actually more complicated than all this.

The whole area from northern Germany to Siberia (at least) was populated by Uralic people before the Indo-Europeans showed up. There were a few waves of Uralic migration, but the last wave to settle in the Baltics were South Balto-Finnic speakers (the family that includes Estonian, Karelian, and a number of dead and near-dead languages).

The primary South Balto-Finnic language of Prussia was Prussian Kurzeme, a dialect of Western Livonian (aka Liv). There are no Liv speakers left in Prussia, but there are still a few in small coastal villages in Latvia.

Then, some Indo-European got sick of the Black Sea and decided to check out Europe. This was the Celto-Germanic migration. Some (the Celto-Italics) went southwest (although a small subgroup, the Tocharians, got lost and ended up chasing the Uzbeks around, sacking Bactria, and eventually bringing their kilts to western China); the rest (the Germano-Slavics) kept moving north until they reached the Baltic Sea.

The branch of Germano-Slavic people who ended up in Prussia spoke languages in the Baltic family, mainly Old Prussian (which has been completely extinct for centuries).

While there was some dislocation and extermination, there was a lot more peaceful coexistance, intermarriage, and assimilation. Meanwhile, other Germano-Slavic people wandered in and out of the area over the centuries (they tended to move around quite a bit).

So, throughout the area, you had a mix of Balto-Finnic, Baltic, Western Slavic (Polish), Eastern Slavic (Russian), and Eastern Germanic (Gothic) people, including many mixed-breed types, multi-ethnic villages, etc.

As each area developed, a common language became useful for trade and government. The pattern of chosen languages was pretty much a patchwork. In most of Prussia, Lithuania, and Eastern Latvia, they settled on Baltic languages (Old Prussian, Lithuanian, Latvian). In most of Western Latvia and Northern Estonia, they settled on Balto-Finnic languages (Western Livonian, Estonian). In most of Southern Estonia, they ended up with an East Slavic language (Northwest Ukranian, which was definitely a minority language but still ended up as the standard language for the region).

So, it was all pretty crazy before the Knights even showed up, bringing a West Germanic language just to confuse the mix. And later, Poland brought in their West Slavic language.

To make matters even more confusing, there was a hodgepodge of religions in the region. Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox were all represented, and there were a few people in some villages still practicing Finnic paganism hundreds of years later than you'd expect.

In other words, it's pretty hard to come up with a 'Prussian' identity, ethnically, linguistically, or historically. Most people in the area are relatively recent immigrants, and the rest are ethnically diverse, often mixed breeds, and many of them do not speak the same language as even their grandparents, much less their ancestors of the 16th century.

So, by the time the concept of nationalism reached eastern Europe, there was no possible concept of Prussian identity to coalesce around. The Prussia you think of historically really was more of an army looking for a place to exercise power than a nation in any useful sense.

All of this probably explains why most modern Prussians, no matter how they trace their ancestry (if they even can) think of themselves as Polish.

Originally posted by Janbalk
The same as Latvians and Lithuanias probably, but thoose languages are slavic, admittedly not closley related to any other now exicting slavic languages.

OK, Old Prussian is very closely related to Latvian and Lithuanian--they're all in the Baltic family. But there's a lot of disagreement among historical linguists about whether the Baltic languages are Slavic.

The most common way to place the Baltic family is as a sister to Slavic (under a family called Balto-Slavic, sister to Germanic) or as a sister to Slavic and Germanic (directly under Germano-Slavic), but a few linguists do agree with you (usually the same ones who put West Slavic and East Slavic under the intermediate family North Slavic).

Estonias are talking a non-indoeuopaan language (closley related to Finnish, and not so closley with Hungarian) not related to Latvian or Lithuanian.

Yep. To be precise, Estonian is a South Balto-Finnic language, so it's directly related to Liv, and Karelian. Finnish, a North Balto-Finnic language, is a first-degree cousin. Hungarian is an Ugric language, which makes it a cousin a few times removed.

Of course if you believe the Nostratic hypothesis, then Uralic-Yukaghir (the grandparent of Finno-Ugric) is a sister to Indo-European, so Estonian is still distantly related to Old Prussian. It goes something like this:

Old Prussian:Baltic:Balto-Slavic:German-Slavic:Celto-Germanic:Indo-European:Nostratic.

Estonian:South Balto-Finnic:Balto-Finnic:Finno-Lappic:Finno-Mordvinic:Finno-Cheremisic:Finno-Permic:Finno-Ugric:Uralic:Uralic-Yukaghir:Nostratic

But even if this hypothesis is right, they're pretty distant relatives (about as closely related to Turkish as they are to each other).

Keep in mind that all of these language family classifications are undergoing continual debate and reorganization as new evidence surfaces (or just because of people with chips of their shoulders). For example, when I was in school, less than a decade ago, I was reading arguments that Mordvin is closer to Finnish languages than Lapp is. Now, both languages have new names (Moksha and Saami), and Moksha has been moved even farther away.

If you're not yet thoroughly bored, check out http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/ and http://www.linguasphere.org/ (neither of which mention Nostratic or most of the intermediate families under Indo-European, or provide much historical information, but they still contain enough data between them to help fight your insomnia).
 
Great explanations from all involved, although could someone enlighten me a little more; why did the Teutons head East did they get lost on the way to Constantinople :) What excuse could they use to 'crusade' against an Orthadox populated area. Also, what was the main resistance to them.

Finally, any decent books on the subject
 
Teutons were Templars which had to live Palestine when Arabs took control over it. They moved to Hungary were they stayed for some time. They were kicked out by the Hungarian King do to their growing power and influence. At that time Poland was divided in many small parts, each one unable to defend itself. Prince of Mazovia invited the Teutons and offered them small part of his land. He did that hoping that they will subjugate Prussians for him. He had huge problems with Prussians, Lithuanians which were attacking his country. At this time all nations East of Poland were not Orthodox but pagan. Only Russia was Christian. So the arrangement worked for two sides. Mazovians have peace from Prussians and Teutons have land and new Crusade against Pagans. Unfortunately Germans were too successful in conquering Balts. They took possession of Prussian lands, they also took Polish territory and Danzing. The second German Knight Order was based in Latvia and Estonia. Knights continued to attack Lithuanians in a effort to unite all Templar lands. This way they pissed off Poland and Lithuania which united in a effort to crush German expansion. In 1410 battle of Tunnenberg or Grunwald was won by Slavs.
 
Originally posted by sean9898
Great explanations from all involved, although could someone enlighten me a little more; why did the Teutons head East did they get lost on the way to Constantinople :) What excuse could they use to 'crusade' against an Orthadox populated area. Also, what was the main resistance to them.

Finally, any decent books on the subject

None of the provinces Teutonic order conquered were orthodox. Estonia and Latvia are mostly protestant nowadays, Lithuania is catholic. There is orthodox, but at least in Estonia it isn't very wide-spread. Hell, there is probably more Jehovan witnesses then otrhodoxs.

And Estonia and Latvia (Kurland and Livonia back then) were conquered by german order named Brothers in Swords (you get the point, translation may be incorrect). During 1208-1227 they tryed to conquer Estonia and finally suceeded (though Northern Estonia was conquered by danes instead and in battle of Tallinn they got their current flag as well, from god they say; napkin of big-nosed estonian, we say :)) 1236 Brothers in Swords lots a battle of Saule against Lithuanians and since there wasn't too many knights left, they merged with Teutonic Order, but remained quite independant under a new name: Livonic Order. What was finally destroyed in 1560. Lasted 150 years longer then Teutonic Order actually.

And decent books... maybe you can find Russow's 'Chronicles of Livonia' in English. Maybe. That's all i can suggest
 
You are forgiven. And come to think of it, i don't know practically nothing about American war of independance. Hmmm... date: sometimes in late 18th century, i know that there were some coffe-lovers throwing tea-bags overboard and there was a brave hero named Mel Gibson. The farther they are, the less you care...
 
And i doubt anyone else has seen current Easter Prussia. Brrrr.... I didn't think that was possible, but there are still areas in the world that hadn't recovered from WWII. Ugly buildings, mainly Russian population, dirty city. A lot of ruins. Köningsberg was a ghost town with people in it. Very sad picture.
 
Originally posted by hjarg
You are forgiven. And come to think of it, i don't know practically nothing about American war of independance.

Well, the average American can probably quote the phrase 'taxation without representation' by rote, but still doesn't understand it any better than you.

What it comes down to is this: America was very happy to be defended from the Frogs and the Injuns, but didn't want to pay taxes for that war. All American history, in fact, comes down to Americans wanting services but not wanting to pay taxes for them.

The Simpsons episode about the 'Bear Tax' is a much better explanation of American politics than any book ever written.

Hmmm... date: sometimes in late 18th century, i know that there were some coffe-lovers throwing tea-bags overboard and there was a brave hero named Mel Gibson.

For the sake of simplicity, let's use the name Mel Gibson to refer to all brave heroes--whether American, Scottish, or otherwise--who kill Englishmen.
 
Actually i know a little more then i told, also taxation without representation thingie. And i bet i know a lot more about your war of independance then you know of ours :)

How about calling Jeanne D'Arc Mel Gibson as well. Sooner or later he will play her as well, screaming 'Le Freedom' and painting his face red/white/blue :D
 
Originally posted by hjarg
Actually i know a little more then i told, also taxation without representation thingie. And i bet i know a lot more about your war of independance then you know of ours :)

What, you told the Soviet Union that you wanted to leave, and they were so busy dealing with the rest of their collapsing empire that they didn't stop you? :)

Actually, I probably know more about Estonia than most Americans (just because I studied linguistics and you have the only South Balto-Finnic language with enough native speakers left to easily study it), but admittedly that's not saying much. To the average American, Estonia is the place Stoney from Encino Man (the Pauly Shore movie) came from....

How about calling Jeanne D'Arc Mel Gibson as well. Sooner or later he will play her as well, screaming 'Le Freedom' and painting his face red/white/blue :D

I can see that. I'm just waiting for him to play a Nazi one day; after all, they fought the English too....
 
Originally posted by payn


What, you told the Soviet Union that you wanted to leave, and they were so busy dealing with the rest of their collapsing empire that they didn't stop you? :)

Not the one i was thinking. I actually meant the ones in 1208-1227 against Teutons and 1918-1920 against Soviet Russia.

Actually, I probably know more about Estonia than most Americans (just because I studied linguistics and you have the only South Balto-Finnic language with enough native speakers left to easily study it)
[/B]

You mean that when i say 'Tere, ilus ilm täna', you actually undersatnd??? WOW! Estonian is so difficult that even we have sometimes trouble speaking it :)

And what would it be then: 'Das Freedom, die Freedom, Hail Freedom!'???
 
Originally posted by hjarg
Not the one i was thinking. I actually meant the ones in 1208-1227 against Teutons and 1918-1920 against Soviet Russia.

I was joking; I assumed you meant one of the earlier wars, but I didn't know any details about exactly when you fought the Teutons, and it's always better to be a smartass than an idiot, right?

You mean that when i say 'Tere, ilus ilm täna', you actually undersatnd???

No, not a clue. I didn't actually learn every language that was mentioned in any paper I read in grad school (although my grandmother never understood that). It was enough to know that when someone said something about some difference between South Finno-Baltic languages and North Finno-Baltic languages they usually mean Estonian vs. Finnish. And even that wasn't really important, as long as the author had some way of tying that difference into Chomsky's current paradigm.
 
Originally posted by hjarg
And i bet i know a lot more about your war of independance then you know of ours :)
Not me! I am an expert.

Some German Baron gets bunch of money from England, forms army. Advances on St. Petersburg. Troskty gives speech, Bolsheviks win. Baron retreats to Estonia, Estonia offers to disband army in exchange for independence, Bolsheviks say OK.
 
Other interesting tidbits from the Russian civil war - the US sent a small number of troops to fight the Bolsheviks. Only a tiny number though...

Also, Winston Churchill tried to get full involvement on the Republican side in the Russian civil war...the guy really did have quite a prescient mind, huh?

BTW, I've heard that in the early throughs of the Russian civil war, that the Imperial German troops who kept the peace and the communists away were beloved by the locals - I imagine the estonians here might know better about this...and that this was a major reason why Stauffenberg's Russian recruitment efforts in WWII were so successful...
 
swilhelm73 said:
Other interesting tidbits from the Russian civil war - the US sent a small number of troops to fight the Bolsheviks. Only a tiny number though...

Yup. 7000 US boys were sent to Vladivostok to help 'keep the peace' in 1918, after the collapse of the Eastern Front. Gen. Graves, the American commander, read the 'aide memoire' outlining his orders to mean that he was there to do nothing more than to protect the Trans-Siberian Railway from attack, although the original intent in Washington was to create a context in which the Eastern Front could be reopened.

The Armistice in Western Europe changed the nature of the intervention, as the Russian Civil War began to pick up steam. While no direct aid was given to the Whites in their efforts against the Bolsheviks, the American presence made it easier for them to move against the (soon-to-be) Soviets, which seemed to be the hope of American policymakers back in Washington. Once it became clear that the Whites were spent as a counter-revolutionary force, the Americans quietly withdrew from Siberia.

In counterpoint, the Japanese sent 70,000 men & engaged in direct warfare with the Bolsheviks, going so far as to form proxy armies to extend their influence in the region. They also stayed long after the Americans withdrew, still trying to exert control of the Far Eastern region of Siberia until 1925 or so.

Definitely an interesting episode in history, demonstrating the importance of decisions made by individuals on the spot, and the difficulty for government policymakers to control events in farflung regions of the globe.