EEP Italian States

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I thought it would be useful to start a new thread for Italian States as the old one hasn't been posted to since early November. I'll start out with changes to Italian states between 1.05 and 1.06, and a summary of what exists (and will go into the next big release whenever that is called for) and what are my personal priorities. I've been trying to keep these events organized.

As always input and help is greatly appreciated. I am willing to code event suggestions that I find interesting, but will test and submit things that are generally approved of. So if you aren't willing to do the scripting the bar will be a little bit higher (unless of course someone else scripts it).

And if someone wants to organize redo etc. the Italians events and is willing to commit to taking care of it I would be happy to hand it over!

edit: just noticed that the original EEP Italian States thread is a year old as of Wednesday. Happy Brithday! (Isn't that my sister-in-law's birthday too?)

 

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Paradox Changes 1.05-1.06

Here is what got fixed in the latest patch as far as Italy is concerned:

flavor_mlo.txt: No change
flavor_tos.txt: No change
major_gen.txt: No change
major_mlo.txt: No change
major_nap.txt: Fixed Holy League so it gives -150 with TUR rather than +150.
major_pap.txt: Fixed holy league so it doesn't require itself any more, and -150 TUR not +150
major_sav.txt: Fixed Holy League -150 not +150 with TUR
major_tos.txt: Fixed Holy League -150 not +150 with TUR
major_ven.txt: Fixed Holy League -150 not +150 with TUR
Cambrai: no change

Basically only Holy League fixes (good).
We should adopt these, and add it for the additional countries that get the Holy League in EEP (Genoa, others? Sicily should)

 

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status

My plans as of September 2002 (!!)

OK here's what I'm thinking (hoping) will get done for 1.3.
-resolve what I think about the Venetian Galileo event. Ideally translate the rest of ilv1ontario's events.
-add the 1525 jubilee
-sort out a better set of triggers for the various Italian war events - especially as the 'core' trigger doesn't work.
-Modena
-I have some ideas for Naples. Both pre 1501 (or whenever it was partitioned at Blois) and post 1720 Bourbon. This probably needs to tie in with both Aragon/Spain/French events and the Italian war triggers.
-I want to do the Fieschi conspiracy for Genoa. Not much else for them unless someone has good ideas. I would like something about rivalry with Venice, but I really want it to be historically based.
-Milan whatever comes of that thread, or I have a couple of ideas.
-consider possible inclusion of Urbino and/or Bologna. I'd like to hear how that works in MKJ before deciding. I don't think I'll be playing enough to work through MKJ myself.

As of right now:
-I think that with mfigueras's work Galileo is now resolved. The old (my) Galileo event for Tuscany still exisits and needs desperately to be removed. ilvontario's enlightenment event is done, I've given up on the rest of his events - the good ones are in.
-The 1525 Jubilee needs to get added, and I have another Papal flavour event (alum at Tolfa)
-With the core trigger now working, at the least I'll switch those back to core triggers for French intervention
-Modena is done and in the current version
-A couple of Naples events are set up: Massaniello's revolt (sp?) military reforms, the enlightenment in Naples. I'd like something for the treaty of Granada that divided Naples between France and Spain. Ideally I'd like to flesh out the civil war of 1435 a little better - the player should be able to choose the house of Anjou or the house of Aragon. Ideally Naples could keep Rene (as sucessor) as king or have Alfonso. With a little more down time I think I'm ready to try to tackle this one.
-Genoa is in good shape. I'm assuming Mnorrefeldt(sp?) will handle that
-I have one event for Milan, and the Ambrosian rebublic and Sforza coup are ready (and it gets some Genoese events). I still want the murder of the Duke in 1476 (?). I think Modena ought to be their vassal at game start, and I'm thinking of other ways to power them up a bit.
-No plans for Urbino and Bologna now. Everyone seems to be OK with three province Papal States.

Other issues
-I want to remove the VEN CB shield from Cyprus and add it when they inherit.
-downgrade some Florentine Monarchs as per the thread and input from tpc. Add his snow statue event. If he keeps at it we'll change the way the Florentine militia is handled, and maybe more of his ideas.
-Add the uzkok events I posted a while back for Venice and Hungary/Croatia/Austria.
-anything else that comes up - stealing something from the AGC on unification, or if we come
to a conclusion on berhaven's ideas.

 

[berhaven]

Maybe I'm gonna be confused, but other nice-to-have things (excluding the unification matters and the piracy issues discussed in other threads) could be:

some more leaders (specially in the condottieri age, i.e. before 1494), possibly with events like: Fortebraccio da Montone is available, do you want to hire him? with this change given to more than one country and with sleeping events.

a set for the Swiss-milanese relation, covering the loss of Ticino cantoon to the Grigioni (could be handled with a + tax for Scwyz/ - tax for Milan) and the latter alliance with the swiss against the French.

a more commerce-oriented setup for Milan and Florence (since we cannot have CoTs all over the map I would put at least two or three MIL and FLO merchants in most available CoT in Europe to reflect the role they had historically).

At least a major army reform for Venice and Milan reflecting the introdution of the provisionati (long term employ of mercenaries outside of the condottieri system: mainly lance spezzate: former company members whose leader died or, like Francesco Sforza, changed job becoming Duke) and of the cernite system (militia pikemen trained in the Swiss fashion, introduced after the 1494-1495 war). Should Venice get annexation, vassalization or alliance with Albania, they should also get a stradiotti army reform.

I would also like - during 100 years war for Papacy or anyboby else controlling Romagna and/or marche and this should be true also for for Switzerland and maybe Genoa for the crossbowmen- a "Mercenaries abroad" event, something like:

event_a: authorize citizens to fight abroad

trigger event for Burgundy and/or France
event_a pay mercs to giving country
get troops and cause - manpower in giving country

Somewhere in the 17th century during the 30 years war, if a clear domination from a foreign country is achieved, I would start a "italian decadence" sequence, with reductions in manpower and taxation.

I do not know if it should be put here, but I also think that goods produced in Sicily, Messina and Apulia should be Wheat. This would breing me to another big question on the game. Am I alone in thinking that the food importance is largely underestimated in EU2?

... but this would be another history.

 

[berhaven]

Additional Italian-states effects

Some more things:

For 18th century I'd rather see a flavour event on Cesare Beccaria (and his main booklet dei delitti e delle pene, milestone of the thinking against death penalty) which could reduce social control for Habsburg).

I think the all problem of Savoy succession to Sicily and later Sardinia has already be covered, but I'm not so sure.

To actually play Savoy (with its the acrobatic balance between France and Spain/Austria, full of change in alliances even during wars) in 17th and 18th century there is a clear problem without specific events, since ther is almosto no way in standard playing in switching alliances.

Another very cool improvement in Napoleonic times could be the creation of Repubblica Cisalpina, Repubblica Cispadana and later Kingdom of Italy as vassals. The latter was an important player and Eugene of Behaurnais could be a good leader/monarch.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by berhaven

some more leaders (specially in the condottieri age, i.e. before 1494), possibly with events like: Fortebraccio da Montone is available, do you want to hire him? with this change given to more than one country and with sleeping events.

Ealier we decided (at Crook's prompting) that having all the major condottieri switching sides all the time was too complicated. However, I perosnally think that having their major employer hire them by event is good. Just so long as their stats aren't out of control.

a set for the Swiss-milanese relation, covering the loss of Ticino cantoon to the Grigioni (could be handled with a + tax for Scwyz/ - tax for Milan) and the latter alliance with the swiss against the French.

A very nice idea. All that happens now is that the Swiss get the Holy League event in 1510. This should help Milan which I am all in favour of.

a more commerce-oriented setup for Milan and Florence (since we cannot have CoTs all over the map I would put at least two or three MIL and FLO merchants in most available CoT in Europe to reflect the role they had historically).

Great idea. I'll happily support a more sensible merchant distribution.

At least a major army reform for Venice and Milan reflecting the introdution of the provisionati (long term employ of mercenaries outside of the condottieri system: mainly lance spezzate: former company members whose leader died or, like Francesco Sforza, changed job becoming Duke) and of the cernite system (militia pikemen trained in the Swiss fashion, introduced after the 1494-1495 war). Should Venice get annexation, vassalization or alliance with Albania, they should also get a stradiotti army reform.

Sounds great. Agian I wouldn't want it to have earth shattering effects, and it needs to fit in with Venice's DP settings over the long term, but I like this idea too.

I would also like - during 100 years war for Papacy or anyboby else controlling Romagna and/or marche and this should be true also for for Switzerland and maybe Genoa for the crossbowmen- a "Mercenaries abroad" event, something like:
event_a: authorize citizens to fight abroad

trigger event for Burgundy and/or France
event_a pay mercs to giving country
get troops and cause - manpower in giving country

Nice flavour event. The Swiss issue is a little more involved to my way of thinking, and ought to be tied in to Swiss events (which don't much deal with the mercenaries right now).

Somewhere in the 17th century during the 30 years war, if a clear domination from a foreign country is achieved, I would start a "italian decadence" sequence, with reductions in manpower and taxation.

Sounds good. Needed for Naples (at any rate) as I'm having trouble getting their DPs to make sense. I'd exempt Savoy. I'd tried (with limited success) to have other events achieve this goal.

I do not know if it should be put here, but I also think that goods produced in Sicily, Messina and Apulia should be Wheat. This would breing me to another big question on the game. Am I alone in thinking that the food importance is largely underestimated in EU2?

I'm dubious about Apulia. Not sure why this should be changed. It could help Spain a fair degree which is OK in some periods and not in others. Both Sicily and Messina as food seems like too much to me.

 

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Re: Additional Italian-states effects

Originally posted by berhaven

For 18th century I'd rather see a flavour event on Cesare Beccaria (and his main booklet dei delitti e delle pene, milestone of the thinking against death penalty) which could reduce social control for Habsburg).

Sounds good to me not sure who should get it though,

I think the all problem of Savoy succession to Sicily and later Sardinia has already be covered, but I'm not so sure.

I'm not sure the current solution is the best one. I went with an easy solution, Savoy can get the Kingdom of Sicily or the Kingdom of Sardinia. Not both. They get shields accordingly. I don't think it makes sense to have 1715-1720 play out in detail in the events.

To actually play Savoy (with its the acrobatic balance between France and Spain/Austria, full of change in alliances even during wars) in 17th and 18th century there is a clear problem without specific events, since ther is almosto no way in standard playing in switching alliances.

I'm not sure events help here. We're talking about a limitation of the engine. I'm interested in ideas though.

Another very cool improvement in Napoleonic times could be the creation of Repubblica Cisalpina, Repubblica Cispadana and later Kingdom of Italy as vassals. The latter was an important player and Eugene of Behaurnais could be a good leader/monarch.

An OK monarch and a pretty crappy leader if you ask me. However, this would clearly be a good thing. Personally I think it's too hard to try to get the Napoleonic period to work, so I'm not willing to put in the work. But this sort of 'Unification' of Italy is clearly appropriate.

You have a lot of very good ideas that I think are worth working through. Will you be posting events? My personal opinion is that scripting and debugging are a pain, so I'm only willing to do it for events that I think are important. So you'll have to convince me or someone else that these things should be scripted or do it yourself. I hope that doesn't soud too harsh. I just want to be clear on my priorities for how I will spend my time.

 

[berhaven]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I'm dubious about Apulia. Not sure why this should be changed. It could help Spain a fair degree which is OK in some periods and not in others. Both Sicily and Messina as food seems like too much to me.

Well my thinking is just based on actual facts: Sicily (both provinces) was the granary of the med for long time, at least up to the massive import of northern crops. At the same time the interest of Venice in Apulia was mainly based on the need to secure food supply to the metropolis. BTW, I admit that the problem is mainly related to the way EU2 treats food issues. In the current game, wheat is a strategic resourse because it gives an army maintenance bonus, what was not quite the case in real live, the first importance of food being to be able to feed large towns and reduce their RR.

 

[berhaven]

Re: Re: Additional Italian-states effects

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
You have a lot of very good ideas that I think are worth working through. Will you be posting events? My personal opinion is that scripting and debugging are a pain, so I'm only willing to do it for events that I think are important. So you'll have to convince me or someone else that these things should be scripted or do it yourself. I hope that doesn't soud too harsh. I just want to be clear on my priorities for how I will spend my time.

Thanks

Well let me study a bit of Havard's manual and maybe I can overcome my lazyness and start posting events.

 

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Naples

I think I'll use the Dukes of Lorraine as Rene's sucessors if Anjou is chosen in the Sucession War of 1435-1444. Up to some timem around 1500 when both lines will converge on the Aragon monarchs. Just not sure how right now. A fantasy coup?

 

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Angevin Madness!

OK I've been looking into Naples and that wacky Anjou family. The basic facts are:

Louis II was King of Naples, and disputed it with the Durazzo branch of the Family. Ultimately he lost and Joanna II (Juanna II) is Queen when EUII starts in 1419. She adopted Louis II's son, Louis III of Anjou/Provence as her heir. He fought wars against Alfonso of Aragon over who would be sucessor to the childless Joanna.

Louis III of Anjou had a brother Rene, and a sister Marie. Marie married Charles VII of France and the French claim to Naples, Anjou and Provence is primarily traced through her. Rene is married to the only daughter of Duke Charles of Lorraine, and when the Duke dies, Rene is the heir, although this is disputed with Charles' nephew Anthony de Vaudemont. Rene gets the Duchy and marries his oldest daughter to Vaudemont's son.

Back to Naples, Louis III dies before Juanna II of Naples who then adopts Rene (Duke of Lorraine) as heir. Rene is now COunt of Provence and Duke of Anjou in addition to being Duke of Lorraine. He suceeds to the Neapolitan throne in 1435 and fights a bitter civil war against Alfonso of Aragon which he loses when Naples falls in 1444 and Alfonso becomes king of Naples. Rene retreats to his other territories, occasionally engaging in military action against Naples.

When Rene's wife dies in 1453 he can no longer be Duke of Lorraine, so that title passes to his son John and then to his grandson Nicholas in 1470 when John dies. Both of these are heirs to Anjou, Provence, and the claim to Naples. However when Nicholas dies in 1473, Rene is still holding those titles. Lorraine passes to Rene II, who is the son of Rene's daughter who had married into the Vaudemonts. So through his mother Rene II of Lorraine has a good claim to Anjou Provence and Naples, and through both his parents he has a claim to Lorraine (which he gets anyway).

Meanwhile Rene's younger daughter is Margaret of Anjou, wife to Henry VI, and ally of Warwick the Kingmaker in the Wars of the Roses. Through her, Edward Prince of Wales would have had a claim on Provence, Lorraine, Naples and Anjou, but of course the Lancastrians lose, and Edward is long dead before the issue of who suceeds to Rene's lands. The Lorraine claim, throught he older daughter is clearly better than any theoretical English claim.

When Rene dies his is succeeded (after some politicing and fighting with Louis XI) by his nephew Charles. I'm pretty sure his mother is Rene's sister, so again, Rene of Lorraine has a much better claim (he's decended from Rene's daughter. Charles (who is indebted to Louis XI for getting Provence and Anjou) leaves his lands to the French crown. However, Rene of Lorraine disputes this claim. No-one in England does, because the Lancastrians are all dead.


What does all of this mean?

Well I'd suggest that rather than England being the alternate inheritor of Provence, it ought to be Lorraine. If we are going to let Edward, Prince of Wales survive the Wars of the Roses (which I believe is currently possible) then England is OK, but really it ought to be Lorraine. A simple vassalage is fine. The Provencal Counts in the ahistorical choice will be the Dukes of Lorraine.

We ought to have an event for Lorraine upon Rene I's ascension vassalizing it to either Naples or Provence.

if Naples choses Rene in the civil war we ought to have a big Provence/Naples inheritance event when Rene dies in 1480 (right before the present event in 1482). It's fantasy, but I see Louis XI taking Provence and Anjou, while Rene II of Lorraine get Naples. This, of course enable Charles VIII to claim Naples as he should in 1494. I see Rene II staying as King until the treaty of Granada in 1502 when Spain and France parition Naples, at this point Naples get their historical (Spanish) kings back.

A bit of work, but I think it holds togethr reasonably well, and makes more sense than Henry VII asserting Margaret of Anjou's claim to Provence.

 

[berhaven]

Just another Italian States fact which could be considered.
I'm thinking on a good way to reflect the Piacenza Fairs, which began in november 1579, i.e. after the Spanish bankrupcy of 1577 and the sack of Antwerp in 1576, and ended in 1621, with the definitive victory of dutch finance. Four times every year, some 60 merchants (mainly from Genoa, but also from Milan and Florence) met to find settlements to all letters of exchange. Just to give a measure of their importance, according to Braudel in 1588 the amount traded was some 48 million scudi, some 4 times the Castilla crown debt.
It should be something as important as the Fuggers and should disappear sometimes after the indipendence of the Netherlands (ideal should be as a effect of the end of the war between Netherland and Spain/Austria).
Ideally it should give extra merchants to Genoa, Florence and Milan, and it should devert to Liguria a fair amount of Andalusia/Tago trade. Could also give temporary extra tax to the Genoa-Milan-Florence area. From the Spain/Austria point of view, it should be mainly a flavor event with replacement of Fuggers and ability to keep the 1000 gold loan.
A wonderful thing could be the loss of 1000 gold loan upon end of the fairs, but I'm worried about possible unexpected effects of reducing loan size to a country.

 

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Originally posted by berhaven

Ideally... it should devert to Liguria a fair amount of Andalusia/Tago trade.

This part isn't possible. Also keep in mind that in the default set up the COT is in Naples, not Genoa.

Otherwise it sounds like a very interesting idea. Reducing the loan size is OK, as long as you can be sure you don't send it negative. Could be tricky.

 

[berhaven]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
This part isn't possible. Also keep in mind that in the default set up the COT is in Naples, not Genoa.

Really? I'm pretty sure I never run the CoT change utility and I've always had Genoa.
BTW, I suspected it could not work.
How can we simulate the effect of diverting trade income?
Maybe a Mercantilism/Inflation shift for Spain and opposite in GEN/FLO/MIL.

 

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mercantalism DP would make a small shift. But I'd prefer not have really bizarre DPs just to make a small change in the COT sizes. I think it has to be further abstracted.

It was Naples in 1.2. Perhaps it got moved back. The first thing I did when I installed EEP 1.3 is change all the COTs back to where I like them, and I like Genoa. Either way there is a possibility that there will not be a COT in Genoa, and the event either needs to take that into account or use it as a trigger.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I'm thinking on a good way to reflect the Piacenza Fairs, which began in november 1579, i.e. after the Spanish bankrupcy of 1577 and the sack of Antwerp in 1576, and ended in 1621, with the definitive victory of dutch finance. Four times every year, some 60 merchants (mainly from Genoa, but also from Milan and Florence) met to find settlements to all letters of exchange. Just to give a measure of their importance, according to Braudel in 1588 the amount traded was some 48 million scudi, some 4 times the Castilla crown debt.
It should be something as important as the Fuggers and should disappear sometimes after the indipendence of the Netherlands (ideal should be as a effect of the end of the war between Netherland and Spain/Austria).
Ideally it should give extra merchants to Genoa, Florence and Milan, and it should devert to Liguria a fair amount of Andalusia/Tago trade. Could also give temporary extra tax to the Genoa-Milan-Florence area. From the Spain/Austria point of view, it should be mainly a flavor event with replacement of Fuggers and ability to keep the 1000 gold loan.

I think it would be best as an event, possibly for several states, in 1579, with triggers like Genoa's merchant_bankers and another one with the existance of HOL, nullifying the effect from the first event. Province taxvalue seems the simplest, Genoa get their only increase in 1528 with Doria, perhaps one more is too much? And I hate that only the good effect would remain if Genoa is annexed before HOL appears.

 

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Originally posted by mnorrefeldt
I think it would be best as an event, possibly for several states, in 1579, with triggers like Genoa's merchant_bankers and another one with the existance of HOL, nullifying the effect from the first event. Province taxvalue seems the simplest, Genoa get their only increase in 1528 with Doria, perhaps one more is too much? And I hate that only the good effect would remain if Genoa is annexed before HOL appears.

HOL is quite likely to exist in 1579. I think it's better to use the date to get rid of it (maybe in conjunction with the existance of HOL). Should they be events for GEN, MLO, and TOS, or should they be based on province ownership?

 

[Norrefeldt]

HOL is quite likely to exist in 1579. I think it's better to use the date to get rid of it (maybe in conjunction with the existance of HOL). Should they be events for GEN, MLO, and TOS, or should they be based on province ownership?

Date and existance of HOL sounds good. Is it important enough for all the states or just Genoa, they were after all the more into finance than the rest, as berhaven's description says.
Can you have an event just triggered by province ownership?

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I'm in the process of testing right now. The 1.06 readme says you can.

Florence was a bigger financial center than Genoa in the 15th century I think. Still you make a good point.

 

[berhaven]

Originally posted by mnorrefeldt
Date and existance of HOl sounds good. Is it important enough for all the states or just Genoa, they were after all the more into finance than the rest, as berhaven's description says.
Can you have an event just triggered by province ownership?

I think the trigger for end should be date, existance of HOL and peace between HOL and Spain (or any other already existing event representing the actual recognition of HOL independence anf its role on the finance and trade).

To give an idea of relative importance between financial markets, according to Braudel the creditors after the bankrupcy of 1596 where Genoese for 5 581 000 ducatos, Spanish for 2 200 000, Florentine for 256 000 and German for 13 000. I found no figures for Milanese, which could actually be accounted together with Naples in the Spanish figure.