EEP Southeastern Europe

[Twoflower]

Since I feel this area could use some discussion and reworking, this thread is supposed to be an equivalent to RoG's NE Europe thread. It will deal with everything southeast of the Empire, south of the Carpathians, East of Venice, north of Thrace and south of the Dnieper

Countries concerned:

TUR Ottoman Empire
VEN Venice
HAB Austria
PRM Styria
(for these four only everything related to their possessions in the area)
HUN Hungary
CRO Croatia
SER Serbia
BOS Bosnia
RAG Ragusa
ALB Albania
MOL Moldavia
WAL Wallachia
ATH Duchy of Athens
BYZ Byzantium
SIE Transylvania *
BUL Bulgaria *
GRE Greece*

Currently the setup in 1419 is (will implement changes as soon as they have been agreed on):

Ottoman Empire: Macedonia, Bulgaria, Rumelia, Dobrudja
Venice: Istria, Dalmatia
Austria: Austria (capital), Ostmarch
Styria: Steiermark
Hungary: Magyar (capital), Presburg, Carpathia, Ruthenia, Maros, Transylvania, Pest, Banat
Croatia: Croatia (capital), Krain
Serbia: Serbia (capital), Kosovo
Bosnia: Bosnia
Ragusa: Ragusa
Albania: Albania
Moldavia: Moldavia (capital), Bujak
Wallachia: Wallachia
Duchy of Athens: Hellas
Byzantium: Thrace (capital), Morea

Since I intend to keep this initial post clean for overview, I'll post my suggestions in a second post.

 

[Twoflower]

Especially in this area it's important to decide what each province represents before doing anything else. Without having agreed on this, creating events, distributing shields, discussing province values, terrain and other features will be very fishy since we haven't agreed on what exactly we are talking about. Also, the choice of nations and possibly necessary tags will depend on this.
Considering the wise rule that there should be no direct contradictions between country names, city names and the map, some provinces are quite obvious (since these countries will definitely be needed):
Croatia is the Kingdom of Croatia with the city of Zagreb, Serbia the core of the Lordship of Serbia, Bosnia the Banate of Bosnia, Transylvania the Voivodship of Transylvania, Wallachia the principality of Wallachia and Moldavia Moldavia proper.
All others are trickier:
Ragusa: It has been pointed out before several times that the Republic of Ragusa doesn't actually serve much of a purpose. Its territory was diminutive, throughout its whole history it basically sat around most of the time and accepted suzerainty of whoever it considered the greatest threat to its independence until it was annexed by Napoléon. In EU2 it never performs historically; it gets involved in many wars and is usually annexed by one of its three big neighbours. Therefore I think it could be good to abandon Ragusa and let the province represent Hercegovina and Southern Bosnia, for several reasons:
- Hercegovina (or Hum) itself was bigger than Ragusa
- in 1419 the territory of Bosnia was actually bigger than Croatia's or Serbia's, hence Bosnia should have 2 provinces like them
- Bosnia had sea access
- while the OE never took Ragusa and therefore doesn't deserve a shield on it, Hercegovina was conquered by them in 1483 and a shield on it is thus perfectly in order; the game would develop more historically (since OE will not keep on annexing a province it has no shield on anymore)
Hercegovina/Hum was declared independent by its Duke Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1448 and resisted the Ottomans longer than Bosnia. It was conquered only in 1483. The RAG tag would be used for Hercegovina.

Krain: probably one of the oldest arguments regarding EU2 is about this province. There are three historical territories it could reasonably represent:
1. the Hapsburg territories of Carinthia, Krain and Carnolia with their capital in Ljubljana/Laibach
2. the Kingdom of Slavonia that was administrated together with Croatia (capital Osijek)
3. the possessions of the Counts of Cilli
Of these possibilities, I prefer the third. The Counts of Cilli became a major factor in both Hungarian and Imperial politics during the 15th century and are regarded as the only predecessors of the modern Slovenian national state in Slovenia, which is why their arms, three blue stars, are included in the flag of Slovenia. As can be seen in [this list, the Cillis in the EU2 period, Hermann II, Friedrich II and Ulrich III were Bans of Slavonia or Croatia, so this is actually a combination of 2 and 3.

Istria: Here the question is whether it represents the bigger Hapsburg part of Istria with its capital in Trieste or the smaller but more important and wealthier Venetian part with its capital in Pula. Be it as it may, the province culture should be changed to Slavonic.

Odenburg: This province to me is the territory called Burgenland, a strongly fortified border area settled by Germans (thus the German province culture it already has) that became part of Austria after WW1. The historic capital and most important city of Burgenland is Ödenburg (note the umlaut).

Presburg is evidently Western Slovakia with the city of Bratislava/Presburg (capital Bratislava) and Carpathia Eastern Slovakia with the city of Kosice.

Ruthenia is the territory within and south of the Carpathian mountains that was settled by East Slavs and part of the Kievan Rus before conquered by Hungary. The name Ruthenia was given to it after WW1.

Pest is the city of Budapest (Ofen) and surroundings, Magyar the north of Central Hungary with the city of Esztergom/Gran.

Maros covers the area of the great Alföld plain. Debrecen is the region's center today and was an important city in Hungarian history, should therefore be capital if nobody has a better suggestion.

 

[unmerged(6828)]

For starters, Hungary's capital should be moved to Pest province, because it historically was in Buda.

I like the idea of Hercegovina, because Ragusa usually ends up getting swallowed whole anyways.

 

[Shadowstrike]

If more tags are availble, it would be prudent to break off the Morea from Byzantium. This makes Byzantium harder and more doomed, but also reflects a historic scenario where Constantinople and the MOrea were under seperate rulers. Morea could be a vassal of Byzantium, with the chance of turning into that nation should Constantinople fall.

Additionally, it would be really nice of "Duchy of Athens " were contracted to "Athens". Its sort of out of place, especially since few nations have "feudal" names.

 

[Voivode]

It's good to see such a thread about SE Europe, as you mentioned it's slightly neglected as it stands now.

So,

Originally posted by Twoflower
Ragusa: It has been pointed out before several times that the Republic of Ragusa doesn't actually serve much of a purpose. Its territory was diminutive, throughout its whole history it basically sat around most of the time and accepted suzerainty of whoever it considered the greatest threat to its independence until it was annexed by Napoléon. In EU2 it never performs historically; it gets involved in many wars and is usually annexed by one of its three big neighbours. Therefore I think it could be good to abandon Ragusa and let the province represent Hercegovina and Southern Bosnia, for several reasons:
- Hercegovina (or Hum) itself was bigger than Ragusa
- in 1419 the territory of Bosnia was actually bigger than Croatia's or Serbia's, hence Bosnia should have 2 provinces like them
- Bosnia had sea access
- while the OE never took Ragusa and therefore doesn't deserve a shield on it, Hercegovina was conquered by them in 1483 and a shield on it is thus perfectly in order; the game would develop more historically (since OE will not keep on annexing a province it has no shield on anymore)
Hercegovina/Hum was declared independent by its Duke Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1448 and resisted the Ottomans longer than Bosnia. It was conquered only in 1483. The RAG tag would be used for Hercegovina.

First of all, I agree on removing Ragusa. The EUII engine simply can't represent the 'nature' of this maritime republic. Even with a trader AI they start to expand, grabbing territories, which is fairly ahistorical. Still I'm uncertain because it was a major contester of Venetian trade on the Balkans. It got several trading privileges from the Ottoman Empire, becoming great pain in Venice's neck. They also had a large fleet. However this is still not enough IMHO in exchange for the annexations and ahistorical behaviour.

And I also agree on giving the Ragusa province to Bosnia, representing Southern Bosnia and Hum. It will be a bit too far stretched to south, but it is the best solution. As you mentioned they had sea access, where trade flourished ( one city of this region was Drijev, lying at the mouth of the Neretva river, which was one of the most dynamically developing trading centers in that region ). And yes, Hum resisted the Turks longer than Bosnia, under Stjepan Vukcic' Kosaca ( I can't type this name in its correct form because I don't have the necessary characters on my Hungarian keypad ) who became the Prince of Hum in 1448 under the protection of Emperor Friedrich III (!). BTW, I have already started working on Bosnian events, which , if you would like to see I'll post here when they are ready ( poor me, I designed the whole thing for a one prov Bosnia, representing the separation of Hum with decentralization and by reducing the income ). Balkan history being my favourite subject, I had the opportunity to learn a lot about the area.

Krain: probably one of the oldest arguments regarding EU2 is about this province. There are three historical territories it could reasonably represent:

Krain. Good. Makes more sense.

Istria: Here the question is whether it represents the bigger Hapsburg part of Istria with its capital in Trieste or the smaller but more important and wealthier Venetian part with its capital in Pula. Be it as it may, the province culture should be changed to Slavonic.

Istria should really be Venetian. The Habsburg counts of Istria had a little impact on the region, and it would look quite strange on the map. Habsburgs controlling the seashore from Venice till Dalmatia is a nonsense. BTW, in EEP v1.4 it is already slavonic and has Pula as its capital.

Well, well Hungarian setup ( ) *Rubs his hands*:

Odenburg: This province to me is the territory called Burgenland, a strongly fortified border area settled by Germans (thus the German province culture it already has) that became part of Austria after WW1. The historic capital and most important city of Burgenland is Ödenburg (note the umlaut).

Odenburg: Odenburg is Sopron in Hungarian. It always had been Hungarian and it is Hungarian now. I don't think it should represent Burgenland, but it doesn't matters because WW1 is not in EUII's timeframe. To me it represents the free royal city of Sopron and its surroundings.

Presburg is evidently Western Slovakia with the city of Bratislava/Presburg (capital Bratislava) and Carpathia Eastern Slovakia with the city of Kosice.

Pressburg is Pozsony in Hungarian and Bratislava in Slovakian, and it's the capital of Slovakia as you mentioned. Free royal city, and after the fall of medieval Hungary it's the capital of the Habsburg controlled Royal Hungary. Therefore I think its culture should be changed to magyar, and in the 18th century, under Maria Theresia, there should be a province based event changing its culture back ( However I dont want to anger any slovak friends ).
Oh, and being situated in the Little Carpathian Mountains, it could be a mountain province.
Carpathia is ok. Kosice is Kassa in Hungarian.

Ruthenia is the territory within and south of the Carpathian mountains that was settled by East Slavs and part of the Kievan Rus before conquered by Hungary. The name Ruthenia was given to it after WW1.

Ruthenia - To me it represents Máramaros ( or Mármaros in a more archaic form ) with the city of Ungvár ( notice the correct form ). Indeed, nowadays it is called Ruthenia.

Pest is the city of Budapest (Ofen) and surroundings, Magyar the north of Central Hungary with the city of Esztergom/Gran.

Pest - This name is obviously wrong. This province should be called Transdanubia ( Dunántúl in Hungarian ), with Pécs / ahhh, my city / as its capital.

Magyar - Funny name ( Imagine Twoflower, a german province e.g. Hessen called "German" ). The prov should be Felsõ-Magyarország ( Upper Hungary ) or something, with Buda as its capital, however the positions of the army and the city should switch places. This way, it would be much more correct.
Oh, and please stop saying Budapest, for Pest was a small village till 1873, when these two cities, Buda and Pest melted, forming Budapest. It's just simply Buda in EUII timeframe.

Maros covers the area of the great Alföld plain. Debrecen is the region's center today and was an important city in Hungarian history, should therefore be capital if nobody has a better suggestion.

Maros - Agree. It covers the Alföld. Therefore it should be plain, and Felsõ-Magyarország should be forest. So Maros prov name to Alföld and it's capital should be Várad. Debrecen gained its importance only in the 18 - 19 th centuries. Meanwhile Várad was a major city and one of the centers of the Hungarian Church hierarchy ( being the pontiff of Várad was a desirable office ).

Banat should be Bánát or Bánság with Temesvár as its capital. Please remove that horrible "Temeschburg".

Transylvania is Erdély in Hungarian, its major city was Kolozsvár.

Huh, that's for now. Please forgive me for any grammatical errors.

Thanks,
Voivode

PS: I almost forgot. To the whole EEP Team congrats on EEPv1.4, it was a major step towards making EUII a much more interesting game. Twoflower, your work on Germany is quite impressive, playing german minors is getting to be great fun now.

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by Voivode

And I also agree on giving the Ragusa province to Bosnia, representing Southern Bosnia and Hum. It will be a bit too far stretched to south, but it is the best solution. As you mentioned they had sea access, where trade flourished ( one city of this region was Drijev, lying at the mouth of the Neretva river, which was one of the most dynamically developing trading centers in that region ). And yes, Hum resisted the Turks longer than Bosnia, under Stjepan Vukcic' Kosaca ( I can't type this name in its correct form because I don't have the necessary characters on my Hungarian keypad ) who became the Prince of Hum in 1448 under the protection of Emperor Friedrich III (!). BTW, I have already started working on Bosnian events, which , if you would like to see I'll post here when they are ready ( poor me, I designed the whole thing for a one prov Bosnia, representing the separation of Hum with decentralization and by reducing the income ). Balkan history being my favourite subject, I had the opportunity to learn a lot about the area.

Please do post these events, would love to see them.

Krain. Good. Makes more sense.

Ok, the Counts of Cilli certainly make for interesting event chains, both for their relation and struggle with Styria (Fate has already done these, yet they would of course work much better with a Cilli country) and their role in the Kingdom of Hungary.

Istria should really be Venetian. The Habsburg counts of Istria had a little impact on the region, and it would look quite strange on the map. Habsburgs controlling the seashore from Venice till Dalmatia is a nonsense. BTW, in EEP v1.4 it is already slavonic and has Pula as its capital.

I didn't argue that, just wanted to present the two possibilities. And I wasn't aware that these changes had already been done in EEP.

Odenburg: Odenburg is Sopron in Hungarian. It always had been Hungarian and it is Hungarian now. I don't think it should represent Burgenland, but it doesn't matters because WW1 is not in EUII's timeframe. To me it represents the free royal city of Sopron and its surroundings.

Well, Sopron/Ödenburg is the historic capital of Burgenland so "Sopron and surroundings" and "Burgenland" is exactly the same thing.
This territory (Burgenland even appears to be the appropriate English term) existed as a united entity much earlier than WW1. It was disputed between Hungary and Austria in the 15th century and for a short time Burgenland, including the city of Sopron/Ödenburg, was part of Austria then (in the 1460s iirc).
Look at encyclopedia.com's articles on Burgenland and Sopron for reference.

Pressburg is Pozsony in Hungarian and Bratislava in Slovakian, and it's the capital of Slovakia as you mentioned. Free royal city, and after the fall of medieval Hungary it's the capital of the Habsburg controlled Royal Hungary. Therefore I think its culture should be changed to magyar, and in the 18th century, under Maria Theresia, there should be a province based event changing its culture back ( However I dont want to anger any slovak friends ).

Hungary doesn't necessarily have to be identified with Magyar culture, though. Prague was the capital of Austria under Emperor Rudolf, yet that does not mean Bohemia should become German for that period. The city itself was in fact predominantly inhabited by German traders until the 19th century, then became largely Magyar and only from the beginning of the 20th century can be considered a "Slovak" city. However the surrounding area has always (for nitpickers: since the end of the Dark Ages) been Slovak.

Carpathia is ok. Kosice is Kassa in Hungarian.

I know, Kassa is the name currently used. However since it's a Slovak province, the name should be Kosice.

Ruthenia - To me it represents Máramaros ( or Mármaros in a more archaic form ) with the city of Ungvár ( notice the correct form ). Indeed, nowadays it is called Ruthenia.

Trans-Carpathia is the "neutral" term (the name Ruthenia being an invention of the Sowiets).

Pest - This name is obviously wrong. This province should be called Transdanubia ( Dunántúl in Hungarian ), with Pécs / ahhh, my city / as its capital.

Magyar - Funny name ( Imagine Twoflower, a german province e.g. Hessen called "German" ). The prov should be Felsõ-Magyarország ( Upper Hungary ) or something, with Buda as its capital, however the positions of the army and the city should switch places. This way, it would be much more correct.
Oh, and please stop saying Budapest, for Pest was a small village till 1873, when these two cities, Buda and Pest melted, forming Budapest. It's just simply Buda in EUII timeframe.

These province names are Paradox's invention, not mine (and there is a bunch of misnamed provinces everywhere). Provinces cannot be renamed, so we can only discuss about what we want them to represent.

Maros - Agree. It covers the Alföld. Therefore it should be plain, and Felsõ-Magyarország should be forest. So Maros prov name to Alföld and it's capital should be Várad. Debrecen gained its importance only in the 18 - 19 th centuries. Meanwhile Várad was a major city and one of the centers of the Hungarian Church hierarchy ( being the pontiff of Várad was a desirable office ).

Ok, so it's Várad. Agree entirely about making it a plain province, if the Alföld is no plain, what could be one?

Banat should be Bánát or Bánság with Temesvár as its capital. Please remove that horrible "Temeschburg".

Agree of course, calling it Temeschburg sucks.

Transylvania is Erdély in Hungarian, its major city was Kolozsvár.

Or Karlsburg Seeing Karlsburg/Koloszvár as capital of MAROS in EU2 always struck me.

Huh, that's for now. Please forgive me for any grammatical errors.
Thanks,
Voivode

PS: I almost forgot. To the whole EEP Team congrats on EEPv1.4, it was a major step towards making EUII a much more interesting game. Twoflower, your work on Germany is quite impressive, playing german minors is getting to be great fun now.

Thanks for your comments and the compliments. Be careful not to make us lazy by too much praise, there's still much work waiting
I'm looking forward to your work on Bosnia. Meanwhile I'll try to figure out Moldavia and Wallachia.

PS: Btw, when should Transylvania become independent? Only when Hungary is defeated by the OE or a bit earlier, perhaps upon the ascendancy of Zapolya?

 

[Twoflower]

Proposed changes

These things should/could be changed in the 1419 setup:

Province distribution:

Cilli owns Krain
Ragusa is given to Bosnia
both have been explained before

Dalmatia is owned by Croatia, but controlled by Venice
Currently the initial war between Venice and Croatia-Hungary makes few to no sense and almost always has an ahistorical outcome, either Venice taking Krain or (more often in my games) Venice loosing Istria and Dalmatia. Since the war obviously represents the struggle for possession of Dalmatia that was ended in 1420 when everything important was given to Venice, the war might go more historically if Venice has to and is able to take Dalmatia in it

Albania could be owned by the Ottomans
Can any expert on Albania give info:
- what exactly the province of Albania should represent (I'm striving for consistency in the treatment of provinces)
- how exactly its status was before Skanderbeg's rebellion
I'm inclined to think that, since there was no really strong independent Albanian state before Skanderbeg and parts of the province were owned by tributaries of the Ottomans, parts controlled directly, it might make sense to give Albania to the OE at start and let it become independent by Skanderbeg events (I'd strongly advocate looking at the AGC's Albanian events and adapting them in some way)

City names:

city of Magyar renamed to Esztergom
city of Pest renamed to Buda
city of Maros renamed to Várad
city of Transylvania renamed to Kolozsvár
city of Carpathia renamed to Kosice
city of Presburg renamed to Bratislava
city of Dalmatia renamed to Zadar
city of Odenburg renamed to Ödenburg
city of Banat renamed to Temesvár
city of Ragusa renamed to Mostar
city of Moldavia renamed to Suceava (Iasi didn't even exist in 1419)
city of Bujak renamed to Chiinau

Religion
Transylvania should be reformed
Since historically about half of the Slovaks became Protestant, one of the two Slovak provinces (preferably Carpathia) could be Protestant

Goods

Bujak produces wine
Moldavia produces grain (Moldavia is quite a fertile agricultural area and the granary of Romania)
Dobrudja produces wool
Transylvania produces copper or gold
Carpathia produces copper or gold
Hungary should probably have one province producing gold, either Carpathia or Transylvania. It was Europe's largest producer of gold in the 15th and 16th century and gold inflation was one of the reasons for its decline. If there's no gold province in Hungary, there should be none in Styria or Toledo, either, because these two produced only a friction of the amount in Hungary. Later, sometime in the late 16th century, there should be an event for the gradual exhaustion of Hungarian gold ressources.

Terrain

Maros is plains
Magyar is forest
Banat is marsh
Wallachia is plains
Odenburg is mountain

Other

Is it true that Belgrade had a population between 40000 and 50000 people in the 15th century? I ask because the Homepage of the city of Belgrade says so:

In strong desire to get as prepared as possible to resist Turkish invasion and to have a powerful stronghold on the Sava and Danube, the Hungarians allowed construction of Belgrade during the rule of Despot Stefan Lazareviæ. He ruled over Belgrade from 1403 until 1427 and that was the time of a real prosperity of this town. Belgrade was not only the capital of the Serbian state, but also the most important economic, cultural and religious center. The following buildings were erected: the Metropolitan Church, a new fortress (citadel), the Despot's Palace, a hospital and a library. Merchants were granted privileges, and wealthy and capable men came to the town and contributed to its prosperity. Belgrade is supposed to have had about 40-50,000 inhabitants in that period.

If this is true, the population of Serbia certainly needs to be increased.

Pest province should finally be made capital of Hungary.

Odenburg should have a small fortification. The area is called Burgenland (country of castles) for a reason; strong fortifications were maintained in this province since Carolingian times to protect the Empire's south and Hungary's north border

 

[unmerged(5206)]

Shouldn't Hungary start owning the Serbia province in 1419? Belgrade was Hungarian at least.

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by Fate
Shouldn't Hungary start owning the Serbia province in 1419? Belgrade was Hungarian at least.

No, in 1419 it was not yet Hungarian. Just read the quote in my last post. Serbia was forced to cede the city and fortress of Belgrade to Hungary after the death of Despote Stephan Lazarevic in 1427.
Generally you got a point, though. I'm of two minds on it, really. On the one hand, only the city of Belgrade and its immediate surroundings were ceded to Hungary while the rest of Serbia remained with the Despote and was conquered by the Ottomans. On the other, Belgrade was richer, more populous and strategically more important than the whole rest of Serbia, even including Kosovo. We could try to let Serbia cede Serbia to Hungary in 1427 and have Kosovo represent the rest of Serbia.

 

[Voivode]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Well, Sopron/Ödenburg is the historic capital of Burgenland so "Sopron and surroundings" and "Burgenland" is exactly the same thing.

I just wanted to point out that "Sopron and surroundings" has always been an integral part of Hungary, as it is now. And we don't call it Burgenland. If you want to rename Kassa to Kosice and Pozsony to Bratislava because they're "Slovak provinces" then please let that poor city have its Hungarian name. BTW we call it the "City of Loyalty", because its people are decided to stay in Hungary, rather than joining to the more wealthy Austria. But it's up to you, I won't argue.

Hungary doesn't necessarily have to be identified with Magyar culture, though. Prague was the capital of Austria under Emperor Rudolf, yet that does not mean Bohemia should become German for that period. The city itself was in fact predominantly inhabited by German traders until the 19th century, then became largely Magyar and only from the beginning of the 20th century can be considered a "Slovak" city. However the surrounding area has always (for nitpickers: since the end of the Dark Ages) been Slovak.

Very well then, leave it as it is.

These province names are Paradox's invention, not mine (and there is a bunch of misnamed provinces everywhere). Provinces cannot be renamed, so we can only discuss about what we want them to represent.

Of course, I know they're not your inventions , I didn't know we're not allowed to rename provinces.

Everything else is OK IMHO.

PS: Btw, when should Transylvania become independent? Only when Hungary is defeated by the OE or a bit earlier, perhaps upon the ascendancy of Zapolya?

Actually, its first step towards independency was the "Union of Kápolna", in which the three "nation" ( i.e. the Hungarian, the Saxon and the Székely nobility ) of Erdély/Transylvania/ signed an "eternal alliance" ( quite like Helvetia ) against anyone who threatens them. Notably against the Turks, the peasants ( kind ), and against a potential Hungarian King who doesn't respect their privileges BUT they'll always act as a part of St.Stephen's Crown, as a part of the political body of Hungary. This still doesn't mean any kind of independency. The next step was giving the voivodate of Transylvania to the Szapolyai / 'Zapolya' is corrupted form / dynasty in the 1470's, but they all were the trusted servants of King Matthias. Even in the years of the final decay, 1510's 1520's, they were loyal to the King. János Szapolyai was a famous commander in these years, putting down the peasant rebellion of György Dózsa in 1514, near Temesvár, and defeating the Turks several times before 1526. Everybody expected that after the death of King Lajos II, he will be the next king of Hungary ( in 1505, the diet on the plain of Rákos, announced that the next king of Hungary must be of Hungarian nationality ), because he controlled the 1/3rd of the country. However the Turks came, ruining his grandiose plans, still he managed to carve out that nice Erdély. But the dynasty was not restricted to Erdély. They also had large holdings in Carpathia, they controlled the area between the Duna and Tisza rivers and for example they were the counts of Sopron ().

In one word, it's nice as it is.

Dalmatia is owned by Croatia, but controlled by Venice

Ah, good. Historical. In fact, some other major parts of Dalmatia were lost in 1409 to Venice, but in game terms, preventing an ahistorical peace, it's the best solution.

Bosnia

Will post the events ASAP. I have on more question though. Should we create an independent Hum in 1419, being the vassal of Bosnia, or should it become independent in 1448, when Stepan assumed the the title "Prince of St. Sava", becoming a rival to the Bosnian King? Until 1448, they were "just" the vassals of the King, so we could give Ragusa to Bosnia first, then separating Hum with an event.

---
city of Ragusa renamed to Mostar
---
Fine, just wanted to suggest it. And perhaps Bosnia's capital could be changed to Bobovaz, since Sarajevo was one of the first acquisitions of the Turks. They seized it in 1432, long before the Kingdom fell. In Bobovaz stood the royal palace and it was the center of administration. To quote king Tvrtko I: "curia nostra sub castro Bobovaz" - My beloved castle, Bobovaz.

No, in 1419 it was not yet Hungarian. Just read the quote in my last post. Serbia was forced to cede the city and fortress of Belgrade to Hungary after the death of Despote Stephan Lazarevic in 1427.

Indeed, but they were not forced to cede it. It was a part of an agreement called "The Treaty of Tata". In exchange for several estates in Hungary, on the safer side of the Danube river, Despot Lazarevic ceded Belgrade and Galambóc to Hungary. Even before 1419 it changed hands several time between Hungary and Serbia. IMHO it covers too large territory to represent a simple castle, and it creates a Hungarian-Bulgarian border, which is inaccurate. Some time ago I also thought of making a Treaty of Tata event, but, as I mentioned I don't like the idea of cedeing Serbia to Hungary.

Thanks,
Voivode

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by Voivode
I just wanted to point out that "Sopron and surroundings" has always been an integral part of Hungary, as it is now. And we don't call it Burgenland. If you want to rename Kassa to Kosice and Pozsony to Bratislava because they're "Slovak provinces" then please let that poor city have its Hungarian name. BTW we call it the "City of Loyalty", because its people are decided to stay in Hungary, rather than joining to the more wealthy Austria. But it's up to you, I won't argue.

I think city names should always be in the language of the province culture, as a general rule. Wasn't there a big amount of German settlers in the Ödenburg/Sopron area? If we agree on changing the province culture to Magyar, city name should be changed as well, if we decide to let it stay German, I'd prefer Ödenburg.
Btw, it wasn't always such in integral part. During the conflict between Loyalists and Nationalists and later in the general struggle for power between Hunyadi, Cilli, Jan Griska and Hapsburg (among others) it alligned with Hapsburg or the Counts of Cilli several times and between 1459 and 1462 even was in possession of Friedrich V.

Actually, its first step towards independency was the "Union of Kolozsmonostor", in which the three "nation" ( i.e. the Hungarian, the Saxon and the Székely nobility ) of Erdély/Transylvania/ signed an "eternal alliance" ( quite like Helvetia ) against anyone who threatens them. Notably against the Turks, the peasants ( kind ), and against a potential Hungarian King who doesn't respect their privileges BUT they'll always act as a part of St.Stephen's Crown, as a part of the political body of Hungary. This still doesn't mean any kind of independency. The next step was giving the voivodate of Transylvania to the Szapolyai / 'Zapolya' is corrupted form / dynasty in the 1470's, but they all were the trusted servants of King Matthias. Even in the years of the final decay, 1510's 1520's, they were loyal to the King. János Szapolyai was a famous commander in these years, putting down the peasant rebellion of György Dózsa in 1514, near Temesvár, and defeating the Turks several times before 1526. Everybody expected that after the death of King Lajos II, he will be the next king of Hungary ( in 1505, the diet on the plain of Rákos, announced that the next king of Hungary must be of Hungarian nationality ), because he controlled the 1/3rd of the country. However the Turks came, ruining his grandiose plans, still he managed to carve out that nice Erdély. But the dynasty was not restricted to Erdély. They also had large holdings in Carpathia, they controlled the area between the Duna and Tisza rivers and for example they were the counts of Sopron ().

In one word, it's nice as it is.

So it should become independent after Hungary has been destroyed by the Ottomans?

Bosnia

Will post the events ASAP. I have on more question though. Should we create an independent Hum in 1419, being the vassal of Bosnia, or should it become independent in 1448, when Stepan assumed the the title "Prince of St. Sava", becoming a rival to the Bosnian King? Until 1448, they were "just" the vassals of the King, so we could give Ragusa to Bosnia first, then separating Hum with an event.

Events can be expected to work out much more historically and logically when Bosnia owns Ragusa/Hercegovina at start and it is released in 1448. Independent Hum in 1419 would almost certainly do weird things and also I like Bosnia not being annexable in one war in the first years.

Indeed, but they were not forced to cede it. It was a part of an agreement called "The Treaty of Tata". In exchange for several estates in Hungary, on the safer side of the Danube river, Despot Lazarevic ceded Belgrade and Galambóc to Hungary. Even before 1419 it changed hands several time between Hungary and Serbia. IMHO it covers too large territory to represent a simple castle, and it creates a Hungarian-Bulgarian border, which is inaccurate. Some time ago I also thought of making a Treaty of Tata event, but, as I mentioned I don't like the idea of cedeing Serbia to Hungary.

It's a tough question indeed. Giving the whole province of Serbia to Hungary as representation of the city of Belgrade sure looks weird on the map. However Belgrade was by far the most important and most valuable part of Serbia. Right now, Serbia is much too strong, considering that it was in fact almost inevitably doomed after 1389, and I want the Ottomans to be able to wipe out Serbia in one war.
Additionally, it would be nice if Hungary had the city of Belgrade until 1521 as it historically did.
Thus, what about changing Kosovo to represent Southern Serbia with its capital in Smederevo and letting Serbia cede the Serbia province with Belgrade to Hungary in 1427?

Some more questions:
Whose vassal should Serbia be? It was a tributary of the Ottomans, subject feudally to the King of Hungary and acknowledged the suzerainty of Byzantium from which its rulers received the title of despotes. Byzantium probably is no good option, but the two others both seem to have merit.

Why, exactly, should Croatia be independent? Granted, it had some autonomy, but it was in permanent personal union with Hungary and firmly under the control of the King both politically and militarily. The case for independent Croatia is much weaker or not better than for several other territories with a certain degree of autonomy, like e.g. Transylvania, Morea, Silesia, Moravia, Corsica, Sicily, Sardinia, Valencia or Catalonia. Keep in mind that in EU2 Croatia hardly ever behaves historically (i.e. stays quiet) and cancels the vassalization to Hungary much too often.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Re: Proposed changes

Originally posted by Twoflower

Dalmatia is owned by Croatia, but controlled by Venice
Currently the initial war between Venice and Croatia-Hungary makes few to no sense and almost always has an ahistorical outcome, either Venice taking Krain or (more often in my games) Venice loosing Istria and Dalmatia. Since the war obviously represents the struggle for possession of Dalmatia that was ended in 1420 when everything important was given to Venice, the war might go more historically if Venice has to and is able to take Dalmatia in it

I really don't like this outcome, because I don't think it will give Dalmatia to Venice often enough. If testing shows that Venice will reliably take Dalmatia at the end of the war this is alright, but I don't think it will. Just my bias - I'd rather see Venice with bizarre Balkan holdings than without the Adriatic coast

On Dalmatia, give the disposition of Ragusa perhaps we can now call the city of Dalmatia Dubrovnik? I'd like that anyway.

Krain: probably one of the oldest arguments regarding EU2 is about this province. There are three historical territories it could reasonably represent:
1. the Hapsburg territories of Carinthia, Krain and Carnolia with their capital in Ljubljana/Laibach
2. the Kingdom of Slavonia that was administrated together with Croatia (capital Osijek)
3. the possessions of the Counts of Cilli
Of these possibilities, I prefer the third. The Counts of Cilli became a major factor in both Hungarian and Imperial politics during the 15th century and are regarded as the only predecessors of the modern Slovenian national state in Slovenia, which is why their arms, three blue stars, are included in the flag of Slovenia. As can be seen in [this list, the Cillis in the EU2 period, Hermann II, Friedrich II and Ulrich III were Bans of Slavonia or Croatia, so this is actually a combination of 2 and 3.

As I'm sure I've mentioned before I much prefer the second solution - it represents Slavonia. However, I agree that 1 is the worst solution - the province is misnamed.

Won't adding another Hungarian minor make Hungary even weaker than it already is? I mean there is a decent case for ditching Croatia, so clearly the same case can be made for Cilli. I don't think we need more states here.

"Temesvar" is good. That's what I've always seen it called.

Mountains in Bratislava might make sense. Still if you turn Magyar into forest, and Odenburg into Mountain we have precious little of the "Great Hungarian Plain" left. The reason the magyars settled there in the first place was because it was extesive enough to allow pastoralism on horseback, which they were accustomed to from the Steppes. Geographically there ought to be a big chunk of plains in Hungary, and I don't like the mountains encroaching this much.

I like getting rid of Ragusa. Bosnia sounds like a decent solution. Make the province Ottoman in 1520, and give them back their core shield

 

[Twoflower]

Re: Re: Proposed changes

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I really don't like this outcome, because I don't think it will give Dalmatia to Venice often enough. If testing shows that Venice will reliably take Dalmatia at the end of the war this is alright, but I don't think it will. Just my bias - I'd rather see Venice with bizarre Balkan holdings than without the Adriatic core

Well, the problem is that usually Venice looses that war and cedes Istria and Dalmatia to Croatia or Hungary. Actually either solution can be justified historically - the province was finally ceded to Venice only in 1420 and Croatia-Hungary still controlled parts of it in 1419, but on the other hand the most important parts, including the current capital Zadar/Zara, had been conquered by Venice long ago (Zara during the 4th crusade). Thus this only depends on what will have more satisfactory results in the game. I think you agree that in this case the solution that turns out to produce a historical outcome more often
is definitely a better solution. So the only answer to this can be given by testing, and this is what should be done about it.

On Dalmatia, give the disposition of Ragusa perhaps we can now call the city of Dalmatia Dubrovnik? I'd like that anyway.

Well, but Dubrovnik IS Ragusa, hence would have to be owned by an independent Republic of Ragusa. I can't see what's wrong about Zara (or better, Zadar).

As I'm sure I've mentioned before I much prefer the second solution - it represents Slavonia. However, I agree that 1 is the worst solution - the province is misnamed.

Look at this map . I'd argue that the territory of the Cilli covers most of the Krain province (and that's in 1400, when they were still vassals of Styria and hadn't been granted territories by Hungary yet). Also, I like having one province represent Slovenia.

Won't adding another Hungarian minor make Hungary even weaker than it already is? I mean there is a decent case for ditching Croatia, so clearly the same case can be made for Cilli. I don't think we need more states here.

Croatia and Cilli are different cases, though. Croatia was in personal union with Hungary, while the Cilli were independent princes with possessions both in the Empire and in Hungary who were opposed strongly to the crown and the Hunyadis in the Hungarian succession conflict after 1439. In fact, Friedrich and Ulrich of Cilli even were bans of Croatia and Slavonia.
That said, I'm working on events for that succession crisis right now, and I'm not yet sure whether it will be more practicable to have Cilli independent or not. At least for the period between Albrecht and Matthias Corvinus more states could be useful (besides Cilli I'm especially thinking of the holdings of the Bohemian mercenary Jan Jiskra in Slovakia who was a major annoyance for the Hungarian rulers until Matthias defeated him in 1462 - could a Slovakia tag make sense?)

"Temesvar" is good. That's what I've always seen it called.

I think we all agree that German names for Magyar cities ought to go.

I like getting rid of Ragusa. Bosnia sounds like a decent solution. Make the province Ottoman in 1520, and give them back their core shield

The Ottomans and their lack of a core on Ragusa (that IS justified, the Ottomans neither had any right to nor any interest in annexing Ragusa) are the main reason why I think this would be a good change, besides the complete insignificance of the Ragusan republic - except for existing almost throughout the period and trading a bit they didn't do that much.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Re: Re: Re: Proposed changes

Originally posted by Twoflower

The Ottomans and their lack of a core on Ragusa (that IS justified, the Ottomans neither had any right to nor any interest in annexing Ragusa) are the main reason why I think this would be a good change, besides the complete insignificance of the Ragusan republic - except for existing almost throughout the period and trading a bit they didn't do that much.

But if it doesn't represent Ragusa anymore, but rather Herzegovina, or whatever, then they need to get their core back. I just wanted to check that that is what you are saying.

 

[Twoflower]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Proposed changes

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
But if it doesn't represent Ragusa anymore, but rather Herzegovina, or whatever, then they need to get their core back. I just wanted to check that that is what you are saying.

Yes, exactly that Hercegovina certainly deserves an Ottoman core.

 

[Twoflower]

Contrary to my original plan of working on Moldavia and Wallachia first, I decided to have a look at Hungary. Most obviously, it's disappointing that neither the succession conflict after the death of Albrecht of Hapsburg nor anything regarding Janos and Mathias Hunyadi is in the game. Thus I started working on events for Hungary in the 15th century. First off, Hungarian monarchs need some modifications, though:

I added "of Austria" to the remark of Albrecht and made his values slightly better (he is 5-5-7 as Austrian monarch, and I don't understand why he should be that much worse in Hungary):

[COLOR=white]
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 06261 }
	startdate = {
		day = 9
		month = december
		year = 1437
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 27
		month = october
		year = 1439
	}
	name = "Albrecht"
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 7
	dormant = no	
               remark = "Also of Austria and Bohemia"
}
[/COLOR]

During the interregnum between Albrecht's premature death on October 27th 1439 and the coronation of Wladislaw of Poland as new King on July 17th 1440 (or the possible appointment of Elizabeth of Luxemburg as Queen Regent for Ladislaus), there should be this monarch:

[COLOR=white]
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 06281 }
	startdate = {
		day = 27
		month = october 
		year = 1439
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = december
		year = 1440
	}
	name = "Hungarian Diet (Regency)"
	DIP = 3
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 5
	dormant = no	
               remark = "Interregnum"
}
[/COLOR]

Since I will let Hungary choose between Wladislaw of Poland and a regency of Elizabeth for Ladislaus, I moved Ulászlo's (Wladyslaw) startdate to the date of his coronation and made him dormant. Also I felt he deserved to be better than 4-4-3. Being advised by Janos Hunyadi, he was certainly no bad King, and MIL 3 seems particularly weird considering his successes against the Ottomans.

[COLOR=white]
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 06262 }
	startdate = {
		day = 17
		month = july
		year = 1440
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 10
		month = november
		year = 1444
	}
	name = "Ulászló I"
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 6
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Also Wladislaw III of Poland."
}
[/COLOR]

After Wladislaw's death there should be several regencies: from November 1444 to April 1445 an Interregnum (that was disastrous for the country and plunged it into full civil war), then the seven captains that were appointed by the Diet in April 1445 until June 1446 and finally, from June 1446 to 1453 the Royal Regent Janos Hunyadi."

[COLOR=white]
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 06282 }
	startdate = {
		day = 10
		month = november
		year = 1444
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1
		month = april
		year = 1445
	}
	name = "Interregnum"
	DIP = 1
	ADM = 1
	MIL = 1
	dormant = yes	
        remark = "Interregnum"
}
[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 06283 }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = april
		year = 1445
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1
		month = june
         	year = 1446
	}
	name = "General-Captains of Hungary (Regency)"
	DIP = 2
	ADM = 2
	MIL = 3
	dormant = yes	
        remark = "Dominated by Hunyadi"
}
[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 06299 }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = june
		year = 1446
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1 
		month = january
		year = 1453
	}
	name = "Janos Hunyadi (Regent)"
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 8
	MIL = 7
	dormant = yes	
        remark = "rules for Ladislaus"
}
[/COLOR]

I downgraded Ladislaus a bit. Still a child and an easily influenced puppy of the Hungarian nobility that had no interest in governing his countries, the only reason not to make him even worse is that Janos Hunyadi still had an influence in Hungary.

[COLOR=white]
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 06263 }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = january
		year = 1453
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 23
		month = november
		year = 1457
	}
	name = "László VI"
        DIP = 4
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
	remark = "Also King of Bohemia and Archduke of Austria."
}

[/COLOR]
If Hungary does not choose Wladislaw in 1440 and instead opts to accept Ladislaus as rightful King, Hungary will get
Elizabeth and, after her death, Ulrich of Cilli as regents until 1453 when Ladislaus rises to the throne no matter what
choice has been picked (which may make sense or not; my intention is to keep the level of alternate history reasonable and
to eventually end up with a historical timeline even with ahistorical options picked, as long as this can in any way be justified).

[COLOR=white]
#Loyalist regents
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX } #need an ID
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = april  
		year = 1440
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 13
		month = december
		year = 1443
	}
	name = "Elizabeth of Luxemburg"
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 2
	dormant = yes	
        remark = "Regent"
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX } #need an ID
	startdate = {
		day = 13
		month = december 
		year = 1443
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = december
		year = 1452
	}
	name = "Ulrich of Cilli (Regent)"
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 5
	dormant = yes	
        remark = "Regent"
}
[/COLOR]

 

[Twoflower]

Here are the first events, regarding Albrecht of Hapsburg and the succession conflict after Albrecht's death. Some
remarks before:
- note that the sequence is by far not complete yet. Austria will loose its cores on Hungary by Elizabeth's death in
1443 (unless it manages to defeat Ulászló, Hunyadi and their supporters)
- was there any likely alternative to Albrecht in 1437? It might be good to allow Hungary to avoid all those vassalizations
and the civil wars, in exchange for other penalties
- could there be any other possible options as Kings in 1440? I was thinking of making Ulrich of Cilli and Janos
Hunyadi C and D choices. Would there be any point in that, or is it entirely unrealistic?
- how should Ulászlo´s/Wladislaw's death in the Battle of Varna be handled? Should we assume that he dies falling off
his horse or something if he doesn't get killed in battle for simplicity's sake (like it was already done with the death
of Lajos in the Battle of Mohacs) or should we allow for a fantasy timeline where he survives, like with Charles the Bold?
This would make for interesting alternate history, but could have very huge effects on both Hungary and Poland. Thus,
I prefer to do the events with Ulászló always getting killed and leave it upon someone else (or maybe for me at a later
time) to work out the survival of Ulászló. If anybody has ideas on what effects it could have, he's invited to comment on it
- the event effects (revolts, revoltrisk) are rough suggestions right now. They could be adjusted after testing
- should Hungary get German culture? Germans were privilegued , at least until Mathias Corvinus there
were strong ties to Germany, and I don't think Hungary should have lowered income from Odenburg or Silesia
- thinking about it, it's probably better not to make Cilli independent. The Cillis were subject to the Hungarian
King and played an important role within the Hungarian Kingdom. They always intended to gain power in Hungary, not
to conquer territories from Hungary. If the Cillis are not independent however, Croatia certainly doesn't deserve
to either. Don't get me wrong, Isaac; I really love your work on Croatia and think it makes Croatia great fun to play, but
it's inconsistent for Croatia to be independent and causes ahistorical behaviour by the AI. The revolter should be kept, though.

Hungarian events:

[COLOR=white]
#Election of Albrecht of Austria (1437)
event = { 
      id = 188100
      random = no
      country = HUN
      name = "Election of Albrecht of Austria"
      desc = "Sigismund, King of Germany, Hungary and Bohemia, died without male issue. Having faced this for some 
time, Sigismund had chosen his longtime ally and friend Albrecht of Austria, who had proven to be a capable soldier 
during the Hussite Wars, as his successor in all three Kingdoms and married him to his sole daughter Elizabeth. The last 
years of his reign were almost exclusively dedicated to ensuring the succession, and the Hungarian Diet was successfully convinced that the Hapsburg would be exactly the right man to protect the country from the Turks. Following Sigismund's 
wish and what seemed best for Hungary, Albrecht was elected King of Hungary and crowned in Székesfehérvehár (Stuhlweißenburg) on January 1st 1438. Since he however also inherited Bohemia and the crown of the Holy Roman 
Empire, he was unable to fully concentrate on ruling Hungary. Thus he relied heavily on the Parliament to rule in his 
absence and in his short reign conceded numerous privilegues to them."
      style = 1

      date = { day = 9 month december year = 1437 }
      
      action_a = {
               name = "Respect Sigismund's wish and elect Albrecht"
               command = { type = trigger which = 179100 } #HAB: Albrecht of Austria elected King of Hungary
               command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -2 }
               command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 1 }
                 }
} 
#Succession of Albrecht (1440)
event = {
      id = 188101
      random = no
      country = HUN
      name = "The vacant throne" 
      desc = "In 1439 Albrecht of Hapsburg, King of Hungary, fell ill, probably of cholera, while campaigning against the 
Ottomans. Within one month he died, leaving two minor daughters and his pregnant wife Elizabeth. For the case of the unborn 
child being male, Albrecht declared that his son would be his successor in all his fiefs just before his death. Based on this
will, Elizabeth attempted to get the Parliament to appoint her Queen Regent for her unborn baby. Still feeling menaced by the 
Ottomans, a majority of the Diet consisting mostly of the middle and lower nobility however did not want to trust the 
country's fortune upon a woman and an unborn child and, led by the Transylvanian noble Janos Hunyadi, desired an adult 
King with a decent powerbase instead. It was Hunyadi who proposed the most obvious choice, Wladislaw of Jagiello, King of 
the other big christian Kingdom in East Europe, Poland. Initially with the consent of Elizabeth, deputies of the Diet 
approached the nineteen-year-old Wladislaw in Krakow and offered him the Hungarian crown. Meanwhile, Elizabeth gave birth 
to a son, the male heir Albrecht and she had hoped for, and called him Ladislaus. Since then, she was determined to secure 
the throne for her child and thus withdrew her approval of the offer to the Polish King. But instructed by Hunyadi and other 
magnates, negotiations continued. When Wladislaw eventually accepted the proferred throne on March 8th 1440 and everything 
seemed ready for his coronation and the union of the two Kingdoms, Elizabeth fled Hungary to Austria with her son and the 
stolen Holy crown of Hungary. She had Ladislaus crowned King in Székesfehérvár on May 1st, more than two months before 
Wladislaw's coronation on July 17th. The scene was set for a civil war between the supporters of Elizabeth and Ladislaus, 
called 'Loyalists' who were strongest in Western Hungary and Slovakia and championed by Ulrich of Cilli on the one side and 
the supporters of Wladislaw, the 'Nationalists', based largely in the East and Transylvania and led by Janos Hunyadi, on the
other."
       style = 1
      
       date =  { day = 8 month = march year = 1440 }
       
       action_a = {
                name = "Ignore Elizabeth and make Wladislaw of Poland King"
                command = { type = wakemonarch which = 06262 } #Ulászló I
                command = { type = wakemonarch which = 06282 } #Interregnum
                command = { type = wakemonarch which = 06283 } #General-Captains of Hungary
                command = { type = wakemonarch which = 06299 } #Janos Hunyadi
                command = { type = wakeleader which = XXXXX } #Ulászlo I
                command = { type = breakvassal which = HAB }
                command = { type = breakdynastic which = HAB }
                command = { type = stability value = 1 }
                command = { type = revolt which = 316 } #Carpathia
                command = { type = revolt which = 325 } #Magyar
                command = { type = revolt which = 326 } #Presburg
                command = { type = revolt which = 352 } #Odenburg
                command = { type = revolt which = 353 } #Pest
                command = { type = revolt which = 367 } #Krain
                command = { type = revoltrisk which = 44 value = 4 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 316 value = 2 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 325 value = 2 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 326 value = 2 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 352 value = 2 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 353 value = 2 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 367 value = 4 }
                command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 10000 }
                command = { type = setflag which = Wladislaw } 
                command = { type = trigger which = 258100} #POL: Wladislaw elected King of Hungary (vassalage to Poland)
                command = { type = trigger which = 179101 } #HAB: Civil War in Hungary
                  }
       action_b = {
                name = "Ladislaus Postumus is rightful King of Hungary"
                command = { type = wakemonarch which = XXXXX } #Elizabeth of Luxemburg (Regent)
                command = { type = wakemonarch which = XXXXX } #Frederick of Styria (Regent)
                commant = { type = stability value = -2 }
                command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 100 }
                command = { type = relation which = PRM value = 100 }
                command = { type = revolt which = 317 } #Ruthenia
                command = { type = revolt which = 323 } #Transylvania
                command = { type = revolt which = 324 } #Maros
                command = { type = revolt which = 354 } #Banat
                command = { type = revolt which = 355 } #Serbia 
                command = { type = revoltrisk which = 160 value = 4 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 317 value = 3 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 323 value = 3 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 324 value = 3 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 354 value = 3 }
                command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 355 value = 3 }
                command = { type = setflag which = Ladislaus }
                command = { type = trigger which = 179102 } #HAB: Coronation of Ladislaus Postumus (vassalage renewed)                                 
                  }
} 
[/COLOR]

Austrian events:

[COLOR=white]
#Albrecht elected King of Hungary (1437)
event = {  #triggered by HUN18800
      id = 179100
      random = no
      country = HAB
      name = "The crown of St. Stephen"
      desc = "Sigismund of Luxemburg, King of Germany, Hungary and Bohemia, died without male issue. Having faced this for some time, Sigismund had chosen his longtime ally and friend Albrecht of Austria, who had proven to be a capable soldier during the Hussite Wars, as his successor in all three Kingdoms and married him to his sole daughter Elizabeth. The last years of his reign were almost exclusively dedicated to ensuring the succession, and the Hungarian Diet was successfully convinced that the Hapsburg would be exactly the right man to protect the country from the Turks. Following Sigismund's wish and what seemed best for Hungary, Albrecht was elected King of Hungary and crowned in Székesfehérvehár (Stuhlweißenburg) on January 1st 1438. Since he however also inherited Bohemia and the crown of the Holy Roman Empire, he was unable to fully concentrate on ruling Hungary. Thus he relied heavily on the Parliament to rule in his absence and in his short reign conceded numerous privilegues to them."
      style = 1

      action_a = {
               name = "Great"
               command = { type = vassal which = HUN }
               command = { type = alliance which = HUN }
               command = { type = dynastic which = HUN }
               command = { type = relation which = HUN value = 300 }
                  }
}
#Ladislaus Postumus (1440)
event = {
      id = 179101 #triggered by HUN188101A
      random = no
      country = HAB 
      name = "Succession conflict in Hungary"
      desc = "In 1439 Albrecht of Hapsburg, King of Hungary, fell ill, probably of cholera, while campaigning against the 
Ottomans. Within one month he died, leaving two minor daughters and his pregnant wife Elizabeth. For the case of the unborn 
child being male, Albrecht declared that his son would be his successor in all his fiefs just before his death. Based on this
will, Elizabeth attempted to get the Parliament to appoint her Queen Regent for her unborn baby. Still feeling menaced by the 
Ottomans, a majority of the Diet consisting mostly of the middle and lower nobility however did not want to trust the 
country's fortune upon a woman and an unborn child and, led by the Transylvanian noble Janos Hunyadi, desired an adult 
King with a decent powerbase instead. It was Hunyadi who proposed the most obvious choice, Wladislaw of Jagiello, King of 
the other big christian Kingdom in East Europe, Poland. Initially with the consent of Elizabeth, deputies of the Diet 
approached the nineteen-year-old Wladislaw in Krakow and offered him the Hungarian crown. Meanwhile, Elizabeth gave birth 
to a son, the male heir Albrecht and she had hoped for, and called him Ladislaus. Since then, she was determined to secure 
the throne for her child and thus withdrew her approval of the offer to the Polish King. But instructed by Hunyadi and other 
magnates, negotiations continued. When Wladislaw eventually accepted the proferred throne on March 8th 1440 and everything 
seemed ready for his coronation and the union of the two Kingdoms, Elizabeth fled Hungary to Austria with her son and the 
stolen Holy crown of Hungary. She had Ladislaus crowned King in Székesfehérvár on May 1st, more than two months before 
Wladislaw's coronation on July 17th. The scene was set for a civil war between the supporters of Elizabeth and Ladislaus, 
called 'Loyalists' who were strongest in Western Hungary and Slovakia and championed by Ulrich of Cilli on the one side and 
the supporters of Wladislaw, the 'Nationalists', based largely in the East and Transylvania and led by Janos Hunyadi, on the
other."
     style = 1
     
     action_a = {
              name = "Protect Ladislaus' claim on the Hungarian throne"
              command = { type = casusbelli which = HUN value = 48 }
              command = { type = relation which = HUN value = -200 }
              command = { type = relation which = POL value = -150 }
              command = { type = addcore which = 316 } #Carpathia
	      command = { type = addcore which = 317 } #Ruthenia
	      command = { type = addcore which = 323 } #Transylvania
	      command = { type = addcore which = 324 } #Maros 
	      command = { type = addcore which = 325 } #Magyar
	      command = { type = addcore which = 326 } #Presburg
	      command = { type = addcore which = 352 } #Odenburg
	      command = { type = addcore which = 353 } #Pest
	      command = { type = addcore which = 354 } #Banat
                }
     action_b = {
              name = "Accept Wladislaw of Poland as Hungarian King"
              command = { type = relation which = POL value = 100 }
              command = { type = vp value = -25 }
                }
}
#Coronation of Ladislaus Postumus (1440)
event = {
      id = 179102 #triggered by HUN188101B
      random = no
      country = HAB 
      name = "Coronation of Ladislaus Postumus in Hungary"
      desc = "In 1439 Albrecht of Hapsburg, King of Hungary, fell ill, probably of cholera, while campaigning against the 
Ottomans. Within one month he died, leaving two minor daughters and his pregnant wife Elizabeth. For the case of the unborn 
child being male, Albrecht declared that his son would be his successor in all his fiefs just before his death. Based on this
will, Elizabeth attempted to get the Parliament to appoint her Queen Regent for her unborn baby. Still feeling menaced by the 
Ottomans, a majority of the Diet consisting mostly of the middle and lower nobility however did not want to trust the 
country's fortune upon a woman and an unborn child and, led by the Transylvanian noble Janos Hunyadi, desired an adult 
King with a decent powerbase instead. It was Hunyadi who proposed the most obvious choice, Wladislaw of Jagiello, King of 
the other big christian Kingdom in East Europe, Poland. Initially with the consent of Elizabeth, deputies of the Diet 
approached the nineteen-year-old Wladislaw in Krakow and offered him the Hungarian crown. Meanwhile, Elizabeth gave birth 
to a son, the male heir Albrecht and she had hoped for, and called him Ladislaus. Since then, she was determined to secure 
the throne for her child and thus withdrew her approval of the offer to the Polish King. Acknowledging Albrecht's will, the 
Hungarian Diet has followed her wish and terminated the negotiations with Wladislaw. Ladislaus Postumus, as he is called 
since he was born after his father's death, will be crowned King of Hungary in Stuhlweißenburg. Now it's upon Hapsburg to 
defend Europe against the Ottoman threat." 
       style = 1
        
       action_a = {
                name = "Hungary is ours"
                command = { type = vassal which = HUN }
                command = { type = dynastic which = HUN }
                command = { type = alliance which = HUN }
                command = { type = relation which = HUN value = 300 }
                  }
}
[/COLOR]

Polish event:

[COLOR=white]
#Wladislaw elected King of Hungary
event = {
      id = 258100 #triggered by HUN188101A
      random = no
      country = POL
      name = "The Hungarian throne"
      desc = "In 1439 Albrecht of Hapsburg, King of Hungary, fell ill, probably of cholera, while campaigning against the 
Ottomans. Within one month he died, leaving two minor daughters and his pregnant wife Elizabeth. For the case of the unborn 
child being male, Albrecht declared that his son would be his successor in all his fiefs just before his death. Based on 
this will, Elizabeth attempted to get the Parliament to appoint her Queen Regent for her unborn baby. Still feeling menaced 
by the Ottomans, a majority of the Diet consisting mostly of the middle and lower nobility however did not want to trust the 
country's fortune upon a woman and an unborn child and, led by the Transylvanian noble Janos Hunyadi, desired an adult 
King with a decent powerbase instead. It was Hunyadi who proposed the most obvious choice, Wladislaw of Jagiello, King of 
the other big christian Kingdom in East Europe, Poland. Initially with the consent of Elizabeth, deputies of the Diet 
approached the nineteen-year-old Wladislaw in Krakow and offered him the Hungarian crown. Meanwhile, Elizabeth gave birth 
to a son, the male heir Albrecht and she had hoped for, and called him Ladislaus. Since then, she was determined to secure 
the throne for her child and thus withdrew her approval of the offer to the Polish King. But instructed by Hunyadi and other 
magnates, negotiations continued. When Wladislaw eventually accepted the proferred throne on March 8th 1440 and everything 
seemed ready for his coronation and the union of the two Kingdoms, Elizabeth fled Hungary to Austria with her son and the 
stolen Holy crown of Hungary. She had Ladislaus crowned King in Székesfehérvár on May 1st, more than two months before 
Wladislaw's coronation on July 17th. The scene was set for a civil war between the supporters of Elizabeth and Ladislaus, 
called 'Loyalists' who were strongest in Western Hungary and Slovakia and championed by Ulrich of Cilli, on the one side and 
the supporters of Wladislaw, the 'Nationalists', based largely in the East and Transylvania and led by Janos Hunyadi, on the
other."
      style = 1
      
      action_a = {
               name = "Poland and Hungary shall be united under one King"
               command = { type = vassal which = HUN }
               command = { type = alliance which = HUN }
               command = { type = relation which = HUN value = 300 }
               command = { type = dynastic which = HUN }
                 }
}
[/COLOR]

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Croatia wasn't my work (other than cutting and pasting monarchs).

The best reason to leave Croatia in is that it's always best not to change things. But there is a good case to make it part of Hungary. Certainly we need the revolter.

 

[unmerged(10278)]

I spent a lot of time researching events for Hungary leading up to it's eventual defeat some time ago, I've no idea where those files are now though but I'll try and dig them up. I'll save commenting on the events and monarchs until I find my notes from before.

With regard to the German culture, given the integration of German culture within Hungary and the important role they played, I think giving Hungary German culture would be a good move, although I do have some concerns over the power that gives an expansionist Hungary...

Croatia... if you look at the EU2 definition of vassals and how Croatia behaved as part of Hungary then Croatia should not exist. It wasn't independent enough to be called a seperate state, rather a sub-state of the larger Hungarian state.

Not too hard to find so most people have probably seen these but here's a good map of western Hungary in the 15th Century, and for completeness sake, a map of eastern Hungary as well.

 

[chegitz guevara]

Re: Proposed changes

Originally posted by Twoflower
Is it true that Belgrade had a population between 40000 and 50000 people in the 15th century?

Unlikely. Most of what I've read about the place is that it was little more than a fortress until after the Ottoman conquest. Even at 40,000, that would make Belgrade larger than Constantinople. When I return from my EU sabatical, I'll get you more info. My libarby has a very goo book on the Balkans under the Ottomans.