EEP Timurids

[Garbon]

Okay, now that its going to be sort of a mad dasg to replace Crook's things, I'm moving all of my Timurid info to this thread because the Volga & Great Steppes thread will now house things actually related to those to areas

I'll summarize everything better, later

Timurid Empire (TIM)
-One of the key reasons for making all of these changes
-Frankly, the Timurids just all that fun with all the rebel squashing that has to go down.
-As an alternative, if you fail to keep a hold on the government, various Timurid prince factions can rebel.
-Timurid Empire will change into Transoxiana and then Mughals for complete GC play.
-Many relations changes and province swaps.
-The main branches of Timurids will be those of Herat and those of Transoxiana. (Player will get a choice right after the reign of Ulugh Beg on who to support. Supporting Princes of Samarkand will allow the player to eventually become Mughals).

Khorasan (U01)
-The cities of Khorasan and Herat hosted the branch of Timurids that held power up until 1507.
-Because the Princes of Herat are traditionally represented as the Timurid Empire, Khorasan will not be able to revolt from the Timurids and will come into existence if Timurids are human controlled. (This is because staying as the Princes of Herat is a virtual end game, where as becoming Transoxiana allows the player to eventually become the Mughals.)
-Khorasan will then again become independent during dynastic crisis in Persia (circa 1747).

Shiraz(NOG)
-Created as vassal state to Timurid Empire as realm of Shah Rukh's third son

Transoxiana(AMI)
-The multi-purpose nation representing Princes of Samarkand, Babur's kingdom of Ferghana, and Uzbek khanate of Kokand.

Mazandaran (U03)
-Independent state that existed up until mid-16th century when it was absorbed by Persia.
-Later Mazandaran would host Qajar Persia.

Afghanistan (AFG)
-Afghanistan will represent two nations: The Princes of Balkh and modern-dayish Afghanistan.
-Princes of Balkh were never completely independent from Timurid Empire, but a better way to simulate Timurids than uber-revolts.
-Princes of Balkh should either collapse back into Timurid state or be conquered by Princes of Samarkand (Transoxiana).

Timurid Empire and its vassals:

When Shah Rokh took control of the nation, he quickly returned it to a degree of stability that was non-existant in the 10 years prior to his rule. Because of this, he was able to set up two his sons, (eldest and youngest) as governors in Samarkand (and east) and in Shiraz (and west). Eventually his son Ulugh Beg who ruled in Samarkand would follow as ruler of the kingdom with Shiraz going under direct control of the Empire again.

I think that Shiraz and Transoxania are important as they existence of them at start relates how stable the government was. Rokh didn't fear that his children were going to attempt to backstab him, or if he did, they were removed from Herat and in the case of Shiraz so far away as not to cause a problem. Making Shiraz a vassal helps to relate the precarious position of the Western piece of the Empire as its a much easier target then the whole Timurid Empire. Transoxania would be the Eastern part of the Empire after its split in 1449 (would use same tag as Kokand/Farghana). Shiraz would then be a revolter that relates that some Timurid princes attempted to set up their own rules in the Western part of the empire.

Mazandaran (also included in MKJ's 1419 setup) was pretty much independent up until around 1570ish. Conquered by Rokh before 1417, it would be a vassal to him and his son, gain complete independence during the schism, and then be a vassal to Persia until annexed. During the split of the Timurid Empire it could gain Tabaristan as well.

Other than in relation to the Timurids, Mazandaran and Shiraz also serve two other purposes. They help to relate the fact that the region wasn't so easy to control/unified. Add the two of them in combination with Musha'sha and we now have a Persia that faces problems if it gets unstable. The other benefit is that we can also represent the situation in Persia come the 18th century, that Fate suggested on page one of the 1520 thread. Qajar Persia would use the Mazandaran tag and Zand Persia could use the Shiraz tag. It'd be wasteful to use two tags for nations that didn't come about until the 18th century but not so if we can piggyback them to no longer needed revolters.

The only other change shown is that Tabriz goes to the Timurid Empire as it was capture by Shah Rokh in 1417. Also Timurids should lose the low stability since this was their period of stability.

I bow to Crook's wisdom with concern to Transoxiana, in that it should not be independent come 1419. Ulugh Beg had no desire to be independent and was, after all, the successor of his father.

However, the growth of the Qara Koyunlu that occurs with the existence of Shiraz is currently unmatched. I'm really leaning to a setup to better represent the Timurids where various revolters can break free. So we'd have Shiraz as a revolter in the west, which also plays a part in Persian history, Transoxiana in the north-east (which would be a historical revolter), Afghanistan in the south-east (its plausible that this could have been the domain of one of the principalities) and then Khorasan, though it shouldn't revolt from the Timurids since their capital was in that area.

So as an outline for the possible provinces for these revolters (and as I can't make those pretty layered maps MKJ does) here is a province listing since the ftp on tripod uk is still down

Shiraz: 531, 532, 533, 534
Transoxiana: 1592, 1594, 1598, 1599
Afghanistan: 1524, 1525, 1526, 1527, 1528, 1591
Khorasan (no = TIM): 1530, 1531

So a break away from the norm, but I think its better than representing the disorder by the revolts that we have now. It'd be more interesting to fight rebelling factions then the rebel-quashing chore that the Timurid Empire is now.

So I just read that "Opening the can of worms......(Timurid Empire)" thread were the inclusion of Khiva and more importantly Herat was discussed and I realized that there might be misconceptions about my proposal.

It seems to me, that the Timurids in Herat were what we know of as the "Timurid Empire" where as in Transoxiana, there were minor principalities that are not really worthy of that empire designation. Babur was a Timurid prince, but he ruled the kingdom of Ferghana not the Timurid Empire. Because of this, I think that it should be Transoxiana that eventually transforms into the Mughal Empire not the Timurid Empire. With this, there wouldn't be a need for a Herat/Khorasan revolter as its monarchs would be identical to those of the Timurid Empire.

However, I don't think a player would like it very much if he elected to play the Timurid Empire and never could progress to become the Mughal Empire. For that reason, I propose that we have an event with the following two choices:

a)Remain Timurid Empire and Transoxiana revolts free in the east. With this default choice, the Timurid Empire would cease to exist in 1507, with Transoxiana becoming the Mughal Empire.

b)Become Transoxiana and release Khorasan in the west. This option would allow the player to continue on as the Mughals. From my work in Morocco, I noticed that the game has problems if nation tag AAA becomes BBB and then releases AAA, because it can't work through all the tag changes. (That wierd skull graphic appears as well)

Therefore, we'd need a Khorasan revolter to allow the player to continue on to become the Mughals. The Khorasan revolter would also be a nice revolter to relate the situation in the region, since we wouldn't want the Timurid Empire as a revolter.

 

[Garbon]

Deleted and moved this here.


If we decide to go with the setup of allowing the various Timurid factions to revolt and including Afghanistan as one of them, here are four events for the Afghan Timurids.

[color=lightblue]#The Timurid Princes of Balkh#
event = {

	id = 102001
	trigger = {
		exists = TIM
	}
	random = no 
	country = AFG
	name = "The Timurid Princes of Balkh"
	desc = "Although free from direct Timurid control, the princes of Balkh would soon learn that their independence was not acquired so easily. 
In fact their independence simply heightened their struggles with the Timurid Empire;
 for surely the Timurid princes of Balkh would aspire to ruling the Empire? 
In doing so, they would be at odds with the Empire at large, as well as other rebellious factions, such as the princes of Samarkand."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1419 }
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = may year = 1490 }
	action_a ={
		name = "The Timurid Empire will be ours"
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 588 value = 4 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = vp value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = TIM value = -400 }
		command = { type = relation which = U03 value = -400 }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = TIM value = 600 }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = U03 value = 600 }
	}
	action_b ={
		name = "We rescind all designs on the throne"
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 588 value = 5 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = stability value = -4 }
		command = { type = relation which = TIM value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = U03 value = 50 }
	}
}

#Timurid Clashes in Afghanistan#
event = {

	id = 102002
	random = yes 
	country = AFG
	name = "Timurid Clashes in Afghanistan"
	desc = "As the princes of Balkh had learned, their history was to be fraught with conflict as they struggled for suprememacy and ultimately the throne of Timurid Empire. However, it was not uncommon for local rulers to go against the wishes of their Balkh masters and align themselves with other Timurid factions."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1419 }
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = may year = 1500 }
	action_a ={
		name = "The struggle continues!"
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = 5 }
		command = { type = stability value = -4 }
		command = { type = relation which = TIM value = -400 }
		command = { type = relation which = U03 value = -400 }
	}
}

# Timurid Mantle
event = {
	id = 296515
	trigger = {
		NOT = { 
			exists = TIM
			exists = Khorasan
		}
		atwar = no
		owned = { province = 1531 data = -1 }
		control = { province = 1531 data = -1 }
	}
	random = no
	country = AFG
	name = "Ashes of the Timurid Empire"
	desc = "Upon reclaiming the capitals of the Timurid Empire, a Timurid prince would be likely to declare himself the ruler of the new Timurid Empire. 
With this declaration, however, came great responsibility. "
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = may year = 1419 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = may year = 1506 }
	action_a = {
		name = "The Timurid Empire is reborn with me!"
		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = canary } #to prevent duplication
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = mongol } #same
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = canary }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = mongol }
		command = { type = addcore which = 1530 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 1531 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 530 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 487 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 588 value = 6 } 
		command = { type = addcore which = 1529 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 1592 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 526 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 527 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 534 }
		command = { type = capital which = 1531 } # Herat
		command = { type = country which = TIM }
	}
}

# Babur's Ambition.
event = {
	id = ?????
	trigger = {
		NOT = { exists = U03 }
	}
	random = no
	country = AFG
	name = "EVENTNAME3804"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3804"
	style = 2
	
	date = { day = 1 month = may year = 1504 }
	offset = 30

	action_a = { # Ok
		name = "ACTIONNAME3804A"
		command = { type = land value = 3000 }
		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 20000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -2 value = 10 }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = afghani }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = hindi }
		command = { type = relation which = DLH value = -400 }
		command = { type = relation which = GUJ value = -400 }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = DLH value = 240 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 539 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 540 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 541 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 543 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 544 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 545 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 546 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 547 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 552 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 553 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 1520 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 1521 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 1522 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 1523 }
		command = { type = capital which = 1527 } # Kabul
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = 3 }
		command = { type = country which = MOG }
	}
}[/color]

Babur's Ambition would occur for the petty princedoms in the following order of strongest claim:

Transoxiana
Afghanistan
Khorasan (Timurid Empire)
Shiraz

 

[Garbon]

So I tested with all these changes plus an independent Iraq at start.

I saw the Qara's expand by 3 provinces by 1471 with Musha'sha' existing in its to revoltable provinces. Iraq was actually taken out by Shiraz and eventually revolted to Musha'sha' but hey at least it got there The Timurid Empire also fell apart right on schedule and was in permanent decline by 1471.

There were a few problems, however. It appears that I messed up on the revoltrisk decreases and increase because during the one period of stability that the Timurids should have, revoltrisk was up to +18 in many provinces The collapse of its government so many times prevented anyone from land gains in provinces with fortressess, so that needs to be revisited. The Uzbeks also never changed to Uzbek culture, which they need to do so that their Nogai lands penalize them

All of the other problems surfaced from me not taking into account all the wierdness that could happen. At the top of that list, is the fact that many of the Timurid princedoms revolted free with only one province and if poor (like the Afghan ones), they couldn't prove much of a threat to the Empire. Therefore, I think that the first time they revolt they should be given a treasury and some troops. Also, when the Timurid Empire disintegrates, circa 1449 and 1469, all the nations bordering it, should get AIs with higher warmonger values and gain TIM as a main target. I think perhaps to that if the Qara's take a Timurid province it should automatically be given up, but only up to their historical border.

I'm going to fix all these things and see what happens.

 

[Garbon]

Okay here is an update on the work I've been doing.

For the first time, I saw an Ak Koyunlu stretching from Armenia to Hormuz! And better yet, thats a common occurence. I'll post some screens as soon as I can. The main thing that needs to be worked on, is fixing the Uzbeks and making sure that they give the final blow to the Timurids.

I found that the error of the Timurids getting uber-revoltrisks was the fault of random events. So I think that the Timurids should be exempt from random events with revoltrisks as I suggested before.

Now to give a complete picture of the progress that needs to be made, who are a few issues:

-Ak Koyunlu needs to go after Timurids and Mazandaran after inheriting Qara Koyunlu.
-Revolts for Afghanistan so that Princes of Balkh are not so powerful.
-Events to hurt Mazandaran (to often it gets provinces that revolt off Timurids)
-Build Musha'sha' from Ak Koyunlu if it does not exist in post-Qara Koyunlu world.
-Mughals need advantage over Afghanistan
-Persia needs to take on the White Sheep
-Persia keeps revolting in the East when it should be around Shrivan area(?)

 

[Garbon]

Having looked into the formation of the Mughal Empire, here is how I think it should go down.

As alluded to in my post in the Volga thread, 1504 is a bit pre-mature for the formation of Babur's Empire, considering that at this time, he was only in control of Kabul. My new proposed date will follow.

In 1500, Shaibani Khan of the Uzbeks conquered Samarkand so around 1500, if the Uzbeks control Samarkand, Transoxiana should cede it to the Uzbeks. This marks the beginning of Babur's struggles. If by 1503, Transoxiana is unable to regain Samarkand, then Babur's great migration begins. 1591, the province south of Samarkand, is ceded to Transoxiana from whoever owns it and it becomes the capital of Babur's nation. Babur's nation also declares war on Afghanistan. If Babur manages to control 1527, Kabul, then Afghanistan cedes Kabul to Babur and then his capital moves to 1527. Meanwhile, the Transoxiana provinces of 1594, 1599, and 1598 are ceded to the Uzbeks, if they gain control of them. In 1507, if Babur's nation is not at war with Afghanistan, then war is declared. As soon as Qandahar is taken (capital of Afghanistan) then Babur annexes Afghanistan. Till 1510, the Babur's nation should be attempting to gain back its provinces that were taken by the Uzbeks. In 1510, when Shaibani Khan died at the hands of Persia, Babur finally after a minor skirmish, realized that he would be unable to gain back his former lands from the Uzbeks and directed his attentions to forming and empire in India. So, the Mughal Empire should form in 1510 as the result of Babur's change in direction/goals.

Of course all of this will need various checks, in case Afghanistan doesn't form or any other oddness, in combination with making sure the player doesn't ruin the sequence.

 

[Mad King James]

The Babur Empire should start off trying to retake Ferghana and Samarkand, only in failure should it cast it's eyes southwards
If it does succeed, a event string should occur with the descendants of Babur and the Shaybanids battling it out for supremacy of Transoxiana.

Babur's first state was in Kabul really, before that he was stateless. He seized it from the anarchaic mess that was Afghanistan at the time, using the remains of the Timurid army to do so. So Babur should really be created from Afghanistan. The rest of the Timurid Empire should have long since been partitioned between the Shaybanid Empire and Persia.

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Mad King James
The Babur Empire should start off trying to retake Ferghana and Samarkand, only in failure should it cast it's eyes southwards
If it does succeed, a event string should occur with the descendants of Babur and the Shaybanids battling it out for supremacy of Transoxiana.

Most definitely. At the moment, I'm just pointing out a plan for if everything works ideally.

Originally posted by Mad King James
Babur's first state was in Kabul really, before that he was stateless. He seized it from the anarchaic mess that was Afghanistan at the time, using the remains of the Timurid army to do so. So Babur should really be created from Afghanistan. The rest of the Timurid Empire should have long since been partitioned between the Shaybanid Empire and Persia.

Ney, he was ruler of the little kingdom of Ferghana prior to any rule in Kabul. When he seized Kabul, after being asked by its citizens, it was ruled by the same individual who owned Kandahar. Additionally, I don't know if people would appreciate it that much if they didn't get a chance to become the Mughals.

Side note: The Timurid Empire wouldn't have disappeared long before as it only completely vanished in 1507.

 

[Raczynski]

Garbon, what you think about setup for 1520? Do you have some plans for that scenario? I want to play Mughals, and for know, I gived Kushka, Mekran, Baluchistan and Zahedan to Persia (and moved Baluchistan capital to Kalat), and I will probably give Surkhandarya (which is in polish version called Ferghana) to Uzbeks. What are your fellings?

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Raczynski
Garbon, what you think about setup for 1520? Do you have some plans for that scenario? I want to play Mughals, and for know, I gived Kushka, Mekran, Baluchistan and Zahedan to Persia (and moved Baluchistan capital to Kalat), and I will probably give Surkhandarya (which is in polish version called Ferghana) to Uzbeks. What are your fellings?

I definitely plan to do something for the 1520 scenario, but I haven't really got that far yet. However, because you asked such a specific request, I decided to look into it ( going to have to eventually anyways ). So here is what I could find:

They penetrated further eastwards into Punjab and Sind, and in the 16th century they found themselves as a buffer state between Safavid Iran and Mughal India.

The Balochi remained rebellious under Safavid rule (1501-1736)

Both the Brahvi and Baloch appear to have been firmly established in the beginning of the 16th century, as is seen from a narrative of the flight of the Mughal Emperor Hamayun along the valley of the Hilman to Seistan in 1543. From the middle to the end of the 16th century, the district remained under the rule of the Safavid dynasty. Later it appears in history as part of the Mughal Empire and with the downfall of the Mughal power, the northern portion of the Nushki was annexed to the territories of Khan of Kalat, Mir Abdullah Khan (1716 - 1730). In 1733 Sher Khan the Baloch, Chief of Nushki, submitted to Mir Hassan, the second son of Mir Wais and the founder of the Ghilzai dynasty. Mir Hassan ruled the adjacent Pathan area now forming Quetta and Pishin districts, and compelled the Baloch and Brahvi tribes to tender their allegiance to.

So it appears to me that what you did with Persia is about right, unless we want to give Baluchistan to Baluchistan but I kind of like the shape Persia has under what you propose.

Surkhandarya should indeed go to the Uzbeks, so I agree with that as well.

 

[Garbon]

Okay, so the biggest stumbling block to this effort, other than event descriptions (don't think we want anymore 'wheee!'s ), is that I haven't done anything for if the Timurid player is attempting world conquest. So most things are streamlined for the AI, its amazing how predictable its behavior can become/made, but very little has been done for the player, except for the event with the choice to eventually become the Mughals or not.

 

[Garbon]

So as a status report, I've rounded up all the common problems I can find and have set to fixing them. Once I combat those few remaining issues, the decline of the Timurid Dynasty in the 15th century is good to go. Need to work on the Mughal formation a bit and then I'm going to do a little indie release like Phillip V's SEA mod. And yes of course, I do still have some descriptions to write, though I actually did most of them while I scripted.

I've also been testing with the AGC setup for Oman as part of the Middle East portion of this project (Shrivan, Koyunlu turks, and Iraq) and I've found that Oman pretty much stays out of everyone's affairs, so a sunni Oman will be good for the merger.

 

[unmerged(739)]

On the subject of Oman, what do you guys think of adding the nation of Hasa in Qatar and Damman provinces?

 

[Garbon]

I so think adding al-Hasa would be a great idea. Oman is way too powerful as is.

 

[unmerged(739)]

Originally posted by Garbon
I so think adding al-Hasa would be a great idea. Oman is way too powerful as is.

Yeah, plus the current setup gives the impression that that part of the peninsula was nearly totally empty of people, when, in fact, it was probably one of the more heavily populated areas of the peninsula.

 

[Garbon]

Do we have anything in terms of a monarch list though? I did a little research and might be able to piece something together, but on a quick search, the info I could find was vague at best.

 

[unmerged(739)]

Originally posted by Garbon
Do we have anything in terms of a monarch list though? I did a little research and might be able to piece something together, but on a quick search, the info I could find was vague at best.

I would talk to MKJ, I think he might (though he may not) have some info on them.

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by Gen. Wolfe
I would talk to MKJ, I think he might (though he may not) have some info on them.

I'm not MKJ, but I found this on hostkingdom:

al-HAASA (AASA) The east coast of Arabia, primarily the region opposite Qatar and Bahrain, but extending vaguely north along the coast toward Kuwait. Historically this area has held a high concentration of Shi'ites, as opposed to the generally Sunni populations in the rest of Saudi Arabia. An important town in the area is az-Zahran (Dhahran), site of recent Coalition bivouacs during Mesopotamian conflicts.

Most of the history of this area before the 17th century is conjectural at best - what follows until 1638 is the best that can be done at the moment...
To the Mesopotamian state of "Sealand".........c. 1700-c. 1450
To Dilmun (Bahrain) ?..........................c. 1450-709
To Assyria ?.......................................709-c. 650 BCE ?
To Gerrha...................................c. 650 BCE-c. 300 CE
Persian orbit ?..............................c. 300 CE-c. 400 ?
To Hirah (Persian vassal)...................c. 350/400-602
To Persia..........................................602-635
To the Caliphate...................................635-945
Local tribes only...............................c. 900-c. 1175
To the Caliphate...............................c. 1160-1258
Local tribes only.................................1258-1638
To the Ottoman Empire.............................1638-1723
Sheikhdom of aL-HAASA
Muhammad I........................................1682-1691
Sa'dun I..........................................1691- ?
Barrak I........................................... ? -1723
Vassal to the Najd................................1723-1795
`Ali..............................................1723-1736 opposed by...
Sulayman..........................................1723-1726 d. 1752
Sulayman (alone)..................................1736-1752
'Urayir ibn Dudjayn ibn Sa'dun....................1752-1774 opposed by...
Hamada.................................................1752
Butaiyin...............................................1774
Dudjayn................................................1774
Sa'dun II.........................................1774-1789
Muhammad II.......................................1774-1789 with...
'Abd al-Muhsin ibn 'Abdallah (in the North).......1787-1791 with..
Zayid (in the South)..............................1789-1793 with...
Barrak I (in the North)...........................1791-1793
Zayid (restored)..................................1793-1794
Barrak II (restored)..............................1794-1795
To Najd directly..................................1795-1813
Wahhabi (Sunni) governors
Nadjim ibn Duhaynim..........................1795-1798
Sulayman ibn Muhammad........................1798-1804
Ibrahim ibn 'Ufaysan.........................1804-1809
'Abdallah ibn 'Ufaysan.......................1809-1810
Fahd ibn Sulayman ibn 'Ufaysan...............1810-1812
To the Ottoman Empire (occupied by Egypt).........1818-1830
Madjidl...........................................1818 with...
Muhammad III.................................1818-1819 d. 1830
Mehmed Agha (Tin Hufhuf).....................1819-1820's with...
Halil Agha (in Qatif).............................1819 and then...
Musrif (in Qatif)............................1819-1820's
Madjid (restored)............................1823-1830 with...
Muhammad III (restored)...........................1830
Officially to Ottoman Empire, but with periodic occupation by Wahhabis of Najd, 1830-1872
'Umar ibn Muhammad...........................1830-1838 with...
'Abdallah ibn Ghanim (in Qatif)..............1830-1839
Mehmed Efendi I (in Hufhuf).......................1839
Mehmed Efendi II (in Hufhuf).................1839-1840
Hamad ibn Mubarak............................1840-1841
Musa al-Hamli
'Umar ibn Muhammad (restored).....................1842
Fahd ibn 'Abdallah................................1842
Bilal ibn Salim al-Harq......................1842-1843
'Abdallah ibn Muhammad al-Mutayri............1843-1844
Ahmad ibn Muhammad as-Sudayri................1844-1853 d. 1861
Muhammad ibn Ahmad...........................1853-1857 d. 1870
Ahmad ibn Muhammad as-Sudayri (restored).....1857-1861
Muhammad ibn Ahmad (restored)................1861-1870
Nasir ibn Djabir al-Khalidi..................1870-1871
To Ottoman Empire without interruptions...........1872-1914
Fariq Pasha..................................1871_1872
Nafiz Pasha.......................................1873
Mehmed Pasha.................................1873-1874
Fa`iz Pasha.......................................1874
Baz`ibb `Aray`ar al-Khalidi..................1874-1875
Mazyad Pasha.................................1875-1876
Sa`id Bey....................................1876-1877
Sa`id Pasha..................................1877-1879
Sa`id Bey (restored).........................1879-1880
`Abd al-Ghani Pasha..........................1880-1881
Sa`id Pasha (restored).......................1881-1885
Nazih Pasha..................................1885-1886
Mehmed Salih Pasha...........................1886-1887
Rafa`at Pasha................................1887-1890
Akif Bey.....................................1890-1891
Sa`id Pasha (re-restored)....................1891-1894
Ibrahim Pasha................................1894_1896
Sa`id Pasha (re-re-restored).................1896-1900
Tevfiq Bey (acting)..........................1900-1901
Saiyid Talib Bey Annaqib.....................1902-1905
Mahmud Maher Effendi..............................1905
Najib Pasha..................................1905_1907
Reshid Pasha.................................1907-1908
Mumtaz Efendi.....................................1908
Mahmud Mahir Bey.............................1908-1909
Arif Bey..........................................1909
Ail Suad Bey.................................1909-1911
Nedim Bey....................................1911-1912
Abbas Hilmi Bey..............................1912-1913
Abdul Aziz...................................1913-1914 d. 1953
To Najd (Saudi Arabia from 1926) thereafter...

Which would mean there were no monarchs until 1723. Was this really a state in the sense of EU2? Putting it in as placeholder with "Local tribe leaders" or so as monarch might make some sense, though, since giving them to Oman or making them unpopulated is certainly less correct.

 

[unmerged(6828)]

whats the address of hostkingdom, I forgot

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Twoflower
I'm not MKJ, but I found this on hostkingdom.



Which would mean there were no monarchs until 1723. Was this really a state in the sense of EU2? Putting it in as placeholder with "Local tribe leaders" or so as monarch might make some sense, though, since giving them to Oman or making them unpopulated is certainly less correct.

I saw that bit on hostkingdom as well, but I was primarily concerned with what to do for the 15th century. I found research from bahrain.gov , that puts al-Hasa as EU2 state at the latest by Q2 of the 16th century. Centennia first shows al-Hasa at 1500, so until around then, unless more info abounds, something like 'local tribe leaders' might work.

To clarify, the need for al-Hasa is just for accuracy but also because Oman is ahistorically powerful. I mean Paradox changed Oman's religion for balance issues as it was too good at diploannexation. I don't view Hadramaut with the same degree of necessity because its inclusion would mainly be for accuracy.

 

[Garbon]

www.hostkingdom.net

and then I think its /regindex.html but I'm not sure on that bit.